Is Over-Training Relative?

So I’ve been thinking about this for a while; and I figured I would come and ask some people who are “in the know”.

Is over training relative?

I was having a conversation with my boss who spent many years in the military, and has been a T-Nation work out nut for maybe 10 years or so. Pound for pound he is one of the strongest guys I’ve ever met. He does lots of off the wall exercises, and works on “functional strength” strong man style crap.

We were talking, because I had felt sick from not getting enough rest or food; which led to me getting a bad cough. Any ways he was saying even though I hadn’t changed my work out because I didn’t rest enough, and eat enough I was over training which contributed to my sickness (most likely).

So I was thinking. Well what if someone was fortunate; lets say they only had to work 3 days a week, and even on those days they could get a good solid work out and 10 hours of sleep in. Could you in theory rest and eat enough to compensate for what would other wise be over training? If this is possible to what level would you have to increase your rest? I notice that now that I’ve been working out solid for a few much I’m much more in tune with my body. When I have to eat I have to eat NOW; when I’m tired there is no more staying up I’m in bed NOW.

On my four days off from work could I go nuts if I could get 12 hours of sleep and eat whatever, and when ever I felt like it? Has any one played around with this?

Thanks,
Smack78

Here is a quik article I wrote for another forum. Simply put yes.

There seems to be some misconceptions in this thread about Over-Training. I even read in one squat thread a guy said when he had Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness the next day, he thought he had Over-Trained. There also seems to be the misconception that some lifters utilize or intentionally Over-Train. This is false.

First, Over-Training simply defined means you have trained over the limit which the body is able to recover and rebuild itself.

The point at which Over-Training is reached is different for everyone, so there is no set number of sets or amount of training that could be used as a measurement. Let?s first look at some of the symptoms associated with Over-Training.

?Loss of appetite
?Loss of interest in training
?Sleeplessness, restless sleep
?Soreness for more than three days
?Loss of strength
?Weight loss or weight gain (depending on your goals) or a plateau in gains or losses

You will experience some of these symptoms form time to time, but when they start to become a consistent problem, then you are training too much or other factors are not being met, such a nutrition and sleep. Let?s look at the factors that can play a role in Over-Training.

  1. Sleep- It is vital for our survival that we get enough sleep during the night and achieve a deep and quality state of sleep. There are different stages of sleep classified as Rapid Eye Movement and none REM sleep. At each stage the body is in a different state of function. It is at the deeper stage of non-REM sleep that the body is able to recharge and repair muscles, tendons and ligaments. Younger people will go in and out of this stage a number of times throughout the night, as you age this stage of sleep is less frequently achieved.

If you are not sleeping enough you are not going to function at your optimum level. It is recommended that you try to get 8 hours of sleep each night. You should wake up feeling recharged and rested. If you wake up feeling tired and sore, you may not have gotten enough deep restorative sleep

There was a study done on healthy disease free individuals where the amount of sleep they got was limited to four hours a night. After only two weeks, this group had all the biomarkers of someone who had diabetes.

So if you are not sleeping enough and not achieving the quality of sleep required for repair you will not be able to handle as much training.

  1. Nutrition- Proper nutrition is probably the most misunderstood aspect of bodybuilding and can be the most confusing sometimes. There are many who think drinking protein shakes all day is proper bodybuilding nutrition, its not. Carbohydrates, fat, fiber and protein are all important parts of a balanced diet and all have there role to play.

If you are not getting enough carbs your glycogen stores are not going to be sufficient and will not be able to supply the muscles with enough energy to train properly. Protein simply put helps to rebuild tissue, in our case most importantly muscle tissue. Fat (the good kind) is used to make hormones and normal brain functioning. Fiber helps lower cholesterol, stabilize blood sugar levels and remove toxins from the GI tract.

Don?t forget vitamins and minerals. These substances are also vital for regeneration of cells and tissue as well as hormone production and nerve function.

Don?t forget water, this absolutely essential. Did you know that just slight dehydration and your strength can be noticeably reduced, thinking can be impaired and muscles and joints may become achy?

These are just the basic nutrients that we need. There are hundreds of other enzymes and other nutrients that are critical in maintaining a healthy body.

Just a reminder diet is 70-80% of the success any training program. So if that part of your program is missing then you can expect to fall short in the gym or not be able to train to your maximum potential.

  1. Genetics-There are three basic body types that everyone can kind of gauge themselves in terms of muscle building ability. Rarely is anyone exactly one type or the other, but we are usually a combination of all of them.

Ectomorph
If you have a short upper body, long arms and legs, little fat storage, narrow chest and shoulders, you fall into this category.
Mesomorph
This is the guy we hate at the gym, with the large chest, long torso, solid muscle structure and very strong.
Endomorph
Soft musculature, round face, wide hips, heavy fat storage.

The ectomorph cannot handle the same type of training the mesomorph can. Your genetics will determine how you train, how often and the amount of weight you are able to handle. So for example if the ectomorph and the mesomorph use the same program, same amount of sets, and the same level of intensity, the ectomorph has a greater chance of Over-Training than does the Mesomorph.

  1. Training- Training as is all of life is a balance, too much training or too little training will give you bad results. The key is to find the balance that is just right for you. Just like the diet, too much food and you will just be adding fat and too little and you will not build muscle.

The best way to achieve that balance is to first look at all the other factors. Do I get enough sleep for this intense of a program? Is my diet supplying enough nutrients to sustain muscle growth and repair? Is this program best for someone with my genetics? Once you have answered these questions, you can get a better idea of what the maximum amount of training you can do before you Over-Train.

Then once you have an idea of what to do keep a close eye on how you feel. If you start to notice a few or more of the symptoms of overtraining then that is indication its time to look at the controllable factors (diet, sleep, and training) in your program and adjust accordingly until you are back on track.

Over training is as ‘relative’ as incest but a little less enjoyable!

Absolutely. One’s work capacity and recuperative ability may be vastly greater than another’s for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are years spent training and quality of those years.

[quote]helga wrote:
Over training is as ‘relative’ as incest but a little less enjoyable![/quote]

Yeah, Helga’s sister is HOTT

chriscarani,

Your post is generally good, but there are some points I don’t agree with.

  1. Reaching point where you trained over the body’s ability to recover is called overreaching. If you take a break then, you’ll probably be able to recover, and your strength/size might actually rebound. Only when you stay in overreaching for some time you will actually overtrain. Overtraining is chronic, your performance goes literally down the drain and it takes weeks and months to recover.

  2. Athletes do use periods of planned overreaching to train. It is called concentrated loading and delayed transformation effect. CT and Jack Reape have written about it on this site, and you can find more info on google easily.

  3. Body typing, IMO, always was a shady discipline at best. The way you’re built (height, limb lenght etc.) doesn’t not have to correspond with other major factors like: speed of your metabolism (fast, slow) and your neural efficiency.

[quote]tveddy wrote:
helga wrote:
Over training is as ‘relative’ as incest but a little less enjoyable!

Yeah, Helga’s sister is HOTT[/quote]

And you should see my brother!

Great responses so far. YES it is relative, it is individual, which is why strength programs must be individualised and/or self-adapting.

A program approach is important, not a “routine” approach. Too many people are stuck on finding some magic “routine” in my opinion, what matters is how it is all strung together over a period of months.

Another reason why some “trainers” approaches which are not individualised, non progressive, unplanned simply stink.

Overtraining can sneak up on you over a longer time period. Or it can be wham bam one workout from hell. If you are following a program with good spacing of backing off, whether that be having 2 days of rest in a row in a week, or having a week off every 4 weeks, or reducing volume on the 4th week, or whatever your approach, that planned backing off can allow you to get over the accumulated overtraining to that point.

Another way to think of low level overtraining is that it is a waste of time. You have done more work than required to stimulate growth. But wasting time isn’t a big deal if it is just 10mins here and there.

[quote]slotan wrote:
chriscarani,

Your post is generally good, but there are some points I don’t agree with.

  1. Reaching point where you trained over the body’s ability to recover is called overreaching. If you take a break then, you’ll probably be able to recover, and your strength/size might actually rebound. Only when you stay in overreaching for some time you will actually overtrain. Overtraining is chronic, your performance goes literally down the drain and it takes weeks and months to recover.

  2. Athletes do use periods of planned overreaching to train. It is called concentrated loading and delayed transformation effect. CT and Jack Reape have written about it on this site, and you can find more info on google easily.

  3. Body typing, IMO, always was a shady discipline at best. The way you’re built (height, limb lenght etc.) doesn’t not have to correspond with other major factors like: speed of your metabolism (fast, slow) and your neural efficiency.
    [/quote]

Hey thanks for commenting. Just a few points.

  1. The difference between OR and OT is no more than acute and chronic respectively, which you pointed out in the case of OT. The article was concerning OT, which in that case the definition which I stated at the beginning is entirely accurate. In a state of OT the body is not able to repair and rebuild itself. As I said everyone will have some of these symptoms from time to time, which are usually remedied by extra sleep, taking a light day etc. in that case they would be experiencing OR, not OT. As I pointed out at the bottom of the thread, early detection is key, and those problems/symptoms, should be addressed before OT occurs.

  2. As you pointed out in an indirect way Athletes DO NOT utilize OT. They may have micro-cycles of concentrated loading at which a point of OR may occur, but they do not utilize OT, they suffer from it.

  3. Body typing is not an exact science, and training itself can even change a persons BT. However I still believe it is a great starting point for most people. In nearly all cases I have come across, it is generally a good base, and it is a pretty simple and easily understood guide for people to start with.

[quote]chriscarani wrote:
Hey thanks for commenting. Just a few points.

  1. The difference between OR and OT is no more than acute and chronic respectively, which you pointed out in the case of OT. The article was concerning OT, which in that case the definition which I stated at the beginning is entirely accurate. In a state of OT the body is not able to repair and rebuild itself. As I said everyone will have some of these symptoms from time to time, which are usually remedied by extra sleep, taking a light day etc. in that case they would be experiencing OR, not OT. As I pointed out at the bottom of the thread, early detection is key, and those problems/symptoms, should be addressed before OT occurs.

  2. As you pointed out in an indirect way Athletes DO NOT utilize OT. They may have micro-cycles of concentrated loading at which a point of OR may occur, but they do not utilize OT, they suffer from it.

[/quote]

I guess it is just a terminology issue then. We pretty much agree on what OT and OR actually mean and usability of the latter.

As a starting point it might be ok. It is just that by body typing I should be an ecto, but my metabolism is more like meso’s. And there are some other factors, like endocrine status and like you said previous training history, which is why I wanted to point out that
a trainee should use that as a guideline, and adjust training and nutrition accordingly, based on results, or lack of them :frowning:

Anyway, thanks for the talk.

[quote]slotan wrote:
chriscarani wrote:

As a starting point it might be ok. It is just that by body typing I should be an ecto, but my metabolism is more like meso’s. And there are some other factors, like endocrine status and like you said previous training history, which is why I wanted to point out that
a trainee should use that as a guideline, and adjust training and nutrition accordingly, based on results, or lack of them :frowning:

Anyway, thanks for the talk.
[/quote]

Yes, I agree. Yea, great points, and thank you too.

As others have stated there are many different variables involved and everyone isn’t the same. That being said, I do believe there can be a strong mental aspect to it as well.

If all bases are covered as far as rest, nutrition, and or supplementation, I believe you can push your body and CNS to adapt to higher or more extreme levels of stress and recovery.

If you don’t believe this is possible and can’t muster the fire to really get after it then one won’t venture into that territory believing they will be overtraining if they do.

D

Wow, great information all; it’s very much appreciated. I know this usually goes against the grain, but besides for my height my build is really great for lifting.

Note this is not a claim to be in good shape, just a great possibility. Lazyness has been my downfall.

Growing up mom, never really taught me about nutrition. Dinner was usually a box of Mac and Cheese and some hot dogs, or some other nutritionally deficit meal. When all my friends and I talk about working out, there all like: man you would be a beast if you lifted continually.

My 28 th birthday is in 2 months, and I decided that I’m going to start planning for my 30th by making a promise to my self. I want to be in the best shape of my life when I hit the big 30. I’ve lifted on and off through out my whole life, but I’ve never really stuck to it mainly because I wanted to be at X weight by X date, or have a 6 pack by X date. This time around I’ve changed my mind set. I want to be healthy, I’ve come to realize that even though I’m strong I didn’t get this layer of body fat in a few months so I don’t think it will come off in a few months.

Right now I think I’m sitting at about 20 to 25% BF (maybe a tad less), at about 200lbs (I’m 5"8’). I would really like to cut that number in half. 10% (or a single digit BF percent) would be really amazing to hit on by 30 th birthday, and I believe it’s totally a possible goal.

In the past I’ve really beat the piss out of my self, but I all ways feel like I can walk back into the gym a few hours later and go another round.

My current work out is as follows:

Monday: Compound body movements, full Body

Chest: bench, flat, incline, decline, flys (I try and use dumbbells for most every thing to utilize stabilizer muscles)

Shoulders: Over head press, lat pull downs, arm extensions (I forget the real name, hold the weight out in front of your body straight armed), and usually 1 or 2 more.

Back: Bent over row, seated row, and usually 1 more of some type.

Legs: Hack squats, Over head squats (mostly for balance and stability lighter weight), leg press, calf raises.

Then I do 1 hour of cardio at about 60 to 65 percent of my max heart rate.

Tuesday: Definition day

Basically bicep, triceps, some more focused shoulders. Single joint exercise, and another hour of cardio in the same fashion as Monday.

Wednesday: Just cardio so my muscles can rest.

Thursday: Same as Monday

Friday: Same as Tuesday

A lot of people on this site have told my I’m spending to much time in the gym, but I all ways feel good. I would do more but I actually can’t think of more exercises to do. The only time I feel bad under this schedule is when I don’t get enough sleep or food. Other then that I would actually like to do more. I’m lifting as heavy as I can on every thing, 4 to 6 reps per set, approaching failure on my last rep for each set. Any advice?

Thanks,
Smack78