Is Isolation Work More Important Than is Let On?

Training
1

Since I started getting interested in lifting there has been a shift, a kind of counter culture scene going on where people completely shit on isolation work and people using specifically high rep isolation exercises like dumbbell curls and lateral raises ortricep pushdowns.

I had really bought into it and I look like shit, big legs big ass tiny arms. I fell for the whole your biceps will grow from heavy rows stuff being put out by people selling books.

Anyway I realised every single person at my gym who looks semi decent and has some size and pulls heavy weight and can squat 3 plates each side of the bar does alot of isolation work.

We have a guy called liam in my gym who can squat 400+ pounds for reps and has absoloutley enormous legs and he claims that all he does is a few sets of barbell squats a week and lots of volume leg pressing and that having more muscle will make you stronger and that the idea bodybuilding won’t make you strong is just a fad going around that many people are parroting while being small.

He never trains for 1RM lifts but last time I was there he was squatting just under 400 for 3 sets where he got around 6-7 reps each set.

We have a few big guys like that who all train early morning together and they do 1 compound movement like bench or deadlift and then they will focus on stuff like dumbbell curls and cable rows and machine presses.

My brother finished starting strength and he can squat 300+ he can bench high 200s and he can pull 400+ and is about 40 pounds away from bodyweight press but because of his training he looks absoloutley shit, like he barely lifts and I beat him in arm wrestling because he has tiny little arms and no shoulders at all despite training for well over 2 years using compound lifts, He has been doing a program called 5/3/1 and after 3 months of some curls and some isolation work his arms are growing and he is matching me in arm wrestling.

Why are beginners told to do mostly compound stuff? because of this study about hgh from squats or how heavy rowing will give you big guns? It just seems like nonsense and a gimmick to sell newbies the secret truth which is just not backed up by any people who are actually big and strong where i train.

2

Well, first of all, the fitness world loves absolutes. So people constantly go from high carb to low carb, from splits to full body… Right now, we’re all getting our dicks hard over full body athletic training and low carb anabolic diets because that’s the optimal sales pitch - most people dislike calling themselves a bodybuilder but they love thinking of themselves as “strength athletes”.

That being said… Rows and chinups will make your biceps grow as a beginner because you will fuck them up and do them improperly. Since most beginners are skinny and need to pack on mass with no attention to detail, focusing on compound movements is best (2-3 sets of curls won’t hurt though). After that, it comes down to what Brad Pilon said…

"Thought of something while having my bathroom renovated…

Once the heavy work is done… the tile is laid, the drywall is up and mudded, and the plumbing and lights are in, the bathroom is basically done.

99% of the work was completed (and it was hard, heavy work). You could turn the water back on and it would be a functional bathroom.

However, it doesn’t really start to impress until you do that last, tedious 1%. The trim goes in, the crown molding, a mirror that kind of thing.

It’s that last tedious 1% that makes a room really impressive.

So, when people tell you that Squats, Dead lifts, Bench, presses and chins are all you need to build an awesome body it’s not entirely true.

They are 99% of what you need.

The 99% has to be done (you can’t build an impressive room using only trim and crown molding), But that last tedious 1% of attention-to-detail can make a world of difference."

3

You are right for the most part. If i were you i would simply make time to train with the big and strong guys you have the luxury of knowing in your gym and have them push you beyond your limits.

4

Early 1900s, Alan Calvert: “A man may have wonderful arms and fair legs; but if he is weak in the loins and in the lower part of the back, he can never be classed as a real “Strong Man.””

Starting Strength is exactly that… starting strength. It’s not Starting Bodybuilding, Starting Beach Body, Starting “Looking Good to Laymen”.

For the purpose it was designed, it does a decent job.

There’s a phrase I haven’t seen anyone say for awhile here, but “if you want to look like a bodybuilder, train like a bodybuilder”. There’s some pretty good wisdom in that.

5

Some more Calvert:

"The above is not a supposititious case. It is a thing that I have seen happen dozens of times, even when the novice at weight-lifting was a man who had spent months, or even years, at light exercises. I have seen gymnasts with fine upper arms (which they had developed through chinning the bar and dipping on the horizontal bars) fail to press aloft a weight so light that it would be a joke to the average lifter.

In such cases, the gymnast is usually quite puzzled. He knows that his arms are as big as are the lifter’s arms, and he thinks that he has failed because he has not the “knack” of lifting; whereas, the reason for his failure is merely lack of back strength. Here is one thing that you, who read this book, must get firmly fixed in your mind; and that is, when a man is standing on his feet he positively cannot exert the full strength of his arms unless the strength of his back and legs is in proportion to the strength of his arms. I do not mean that the back must be just as strong as the arms, but that is must be many times stronger."

6

Moral of the story: lifters have been ripping on gymnasts for over 100 years.

7

One should always be wary of taking anecdotal evidence as the gospel. Just because some of the bigger guys in your gym do iso work doesn’t mean its a necessity. That being said, I think there is some good value to iso work. However, it should be more like an after thought than the focus. From my own experience, focusing on the big lifts really helped me more than anything. If you want to do iso work, just do it. You don’t need anyone on T-Nation’s approval to do so. It certainly won’t hurt you to give it a try.

8

If I wanted bigger arms I’d be sure to work on them. Most new lifters are told to hit the big lifts because: (1) they are important; and (2) lots of new lifters just ignore them. As long as you are hitting the big, important lifts and getting that work done, there is nothing wrong with banging out some isolation/assistance work on specific areas you want to improve.

9

I can squat 400+ for reps and would be pretty skeptical of my own advice. Keep in mind that these are the strongest guys in the gym, but there are lots of stronger guys.

10

Just do Bat Curls.

11

Everyone is different. Once someone gets past the beginner stage of training, I don’t think you can give a cookie cutter program to them in order to fulfill their goals.

One thing stands true for 99% of lifters, do the compound lifts and get very strong at them. However, there is obviously more to it than that, but that is the foundation for really any training program or style for that matter. Regardless of discipline be it bodybuilding, powerlifting, Olympic lifting, or just general strength and conditioning.

It is frustrating for someone in their first few years of training because it is in fact very difficult to make sense of all of the articles, ideas, theories, and people who seem to “grow doing so little.” It is like people who are obsessed with Crossfit but don’t understand why they are not getting a big squat just doing the WOD. They think, competitive Crossfitters are just doing WODs-- ignoring the fact that they in fact use 5/3/1, 5x5, periodization, conjugate, or whatever method to actually get stronger.

I train with and around some very strong people, some of them even compete on a National level, and I can say that each and every one of us trains differently given our specific needs. We all might hit the squat, bench, deadlift, clean or whatever similarly-- but after that everyone sort of goes their own way and trains their accessory or isolation work individually. Some do more, some do less, one guy hardly does any and has elite numbers. So-- you have to be your own coach really by using stuff you learn from your peers and more importantly through trial and error (which is the greatest coach/teacher for me).

12

Plenty of good replies so far.

I’ll just add that I agree that one of the most likely reasons compound exercises are “advertised” as being super-effective is a sincere and valid attempt to stress their importance to beginners and those tend to slack when it comes to the hard stuff.

It’s easier to do 8 sets of curls and pressdowns than it is do do 5 sets of heavy rows and overhead pressing. With that said, it’s simply inefficient to avoid directly training a muscle when the primary training goal is maximum muscle growth.

Training isn’t an either/or situation when it comes to compound and isolation exercises. Rows, pulldowns, benching, overhead pressing, curls, and extensions will build larger arms than rows, pulldowns, benching, and overhead pressing.

13

[quote]GreySkull wrote:

Why are beginners told to do mostly compound stuff? because of this study about hgh from squats or how heavy rowing will give you big guns? It just seems like nonsense and a gimmick to sell newbies the secret truth which is just not backed up by any people who are actually big and strong where i train.[/quote]

Beginners are told to do compound stuff because they refuse to just go out and experiment and fail and find out what works, and instead just ask questions on forums full of other beginners and unsuccessful trainees. This in turn allows for an environment where the status quo can constantly be reinforced in order to prevent cognitive dissonance. All that needs to happen now is for the vacuum of experience to be supplemented with “knowledge”, and an author with a good ability to market/cult of personality can step up and fill this void.

A crafty author is going to build a routine/principle based firmly around doing what people in the gym AREN’T doing, as this will appeal to the need to be “different”, and as such, all compound and zero isolation work routines are the way to go. Unsuccessful and beginner trainees, not having the ability to know personally what does and does not work, will buy into the science of this approach, adopt it as “the only way”, and viciously shout down any other method until there is no possibility for discussion.

In general, don’t take advice from unsuccessful people when it comes to succeeding. Instead of having training by democracy, where everyone gets a vote, figure out what works for you.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I had some great success with abbreviated training, but I also cycled it with periods of high rep and isolation work.

14

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Training isn’t an either/or situation when it comes to compound and isolation exercises. Rows, pulldowns, benching, overhead pressing, curls, and extensions will build larger arms than rows, pulldowns, benching, and overhead pressing.[/quote]
Worth repeating over and over.

15

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Training isn’t an either/or situation when it comes to compound and isolation exercises. Rows, pulldowns, benching, overhead pressing, curls, and extensions will build larger arms than rows, pulldowns, benching, and overhead pressing.[/quote]
Worth repeating over and over.[/quote]

This is great.

From my understanding, lots of programs use both. Heavy compound movements to start, followed by isolation work (or rep work, hypertrophy work, weakness work, assistance work etc.) I’m still relatively new, but it seems like many strong people do both and everyone else argues about which is better or which not to do.

16

Yeah do both, even top powerlifters concerned only with performance do plenty of isolation work.

Also Starting strength is notorious for leaving the arms lagging.

17

I think that the “only do compound movements” recommendation (and I, myself, gave the recommendation to focus on getting strong on the big basics in the past) is in reaction to beginners completely dropping the big basics for more isolation work, opting for the easier option.

I see a lot of young (and not so young) guys doing nothing but isolation work and if they do some big basics then they rarely push the lift really hard and don’t do many sets.

Big basics work. If you get really strong in the deadlift, full squat, bench press, row and military press you WILL look impressive. You might not look like a bodybuilder but you will look strong and powerful.

To me, a 300lbs squat, bench press in the 200, 400 deadlift and less than bodyweight overhead press isn’t strong at all. So in a way it’s not surprising that your brother doesn’t look more impressive. When he can FULL (hip joint below knee joint) more than 400, bench press in the 300, deadlift in the 500 and military press in the 200 he’ll look very solid… when he can squat in the 500s, bench press in the high 300 or low 400, pull 600 and military press in the high 200s or low 300s he will look like a beast… if he can go to 600, 400, 700, 300 he’ll look like something from another planet, even if he didn’t do a single set of isolation work.

Isolation work for the arms can give the illusion of being more muscular because most people look at arms first… if someone has some muscularity on his arms, people think he is muscular even if he is scrawny elsewhere.

But building the whole body takes time and you must put in a lot of work to get to a truly impressive level… but when you get there you’ll look a heckuva better than someone who just has muscular arms.

Now, regarding the big guys you see at the gym… you can’t just look at someone like that and draw your own conclusions if you don’t know their history… maybe they’ve been training for a long time. I don’t care which method you use, if you train HARD and are dedicated for many years you will have a good amount of muscle. They could have better genetics than your brother or use anabolic aids. And if they are strong on the big basics isn’t it in large part because of that that they are large?

BTW, when I train competitive bodybuilders I myself normally two 2 compound lifts and 1-2 isolation exercises per session, so I’m not against isolation work. One IFBB pro that I train can bench press in the mid 400, full squat in the 600, press 315 overhead and deadlift in the 600, he can also do strict barbell rows with 365, T-bar rows with eight 45lbs plates, do dips with150lbs for 8… I’m pretty sure that this is responsible for more size than the 30lbs he uses for lateral raises or 50lbs for curls.

Isolation work can help. It works… anything that you lift and can add more weight over time will “work”.

It can help you focus on a lagging muscle group that isn’t hit properly when you do the big basics.

But they should be the cornerstone of your program. Depending on your needs they can be a decent part of your training, but they should only be done when you’ve done a lot of work on the big basics.

BTW I know plenty of VERY strong individuals who do almost zero isolation work and they all look like monsters.

And also, about arm wrestling, I wouldn’t use that as an example since it has a lot to do with technique, levers and timing. I train an IFBB pro bodybuilder with huge arms and even bigger delts but my sister could probably beat him in arm wrestling :slight_smile:

18

I read a lot of articles about all kinds of training and one thing I have noticed, every really big strong dude almost universally recommends getting strong on the big basics. This includes your all time great bodybuilders like Yates, who called them his bedrock exercises, Haney, and Arnold, who has written numerous times about the pitiful state of modern gym goers for not knowing the basics like the squat, bench, and clean and press. All these guys had routines that included a lot of isolation later on but they had a foundation, or bedrock, built with the big compounds first.

19

To echo a lot of what has been said about the “big compounds make you look big”, the fact remains that it truly is BIG compounds that make you look big.

Like CT said, the numbers mentioned earlier (200/300/400 B/S/D) aren’t crazy high, so they understandably don’t make you look crazy big. Once you start moving BIG weights, you’ll look a lot…BIGger. I’m certainly not on a high horse here, either; my weights are around that level, and I look like it.

However, getting to those BIG numbers takes a lot of time, so I certainly believe that supplementing the process of getting to BIG weights in compound lifts with some targeted assistance is a great way to add size in the interim. I’ve been working on adding weight to dips and chins, as well as adding more rowing/rear delt work to try and balance out the pressing volume.

As folks noted before, SS doesn’t do much to bring up your arms when your bench is only in the 200s and press is in mid-100s, so I could use some help. I figured “classic” exercises like weighted dips and chins would add more bang for the buck than endless pressdowns and curls, but that may also just be me trying to “be different”.

It’s a long road for us all. The trick is to enjoy walking it instead of trying to sprint to the end.