Is Clean Bulking w/out Creatine Pointless?

Nutrition
41

[quote]nz6stringaxe wrote:
Hey man, listen to a voice of experience who has been in your shoes.

I was obsessed with eating immaculately (and I pretty much still do). I do not cheat at all, really. I’m always too full of good food and all the nutrients I need before my body craves them. Cooking has become a significant part of my life. Health is a huge concern for me. I believe in the bodybuilding that keeps you young and immune from disease even at age 60.

You know what I did this year? I wrote down every gram of every morsel of food that flew past my teeth. You know what I learned almost immediately? I’d never been eating as much as I thought I had. I’d been eating all this low-fat nonsense even when I ate a fair bit of peanut butter, olive oil, and flaxmeal. I think my ‘fattier’ days back then may have had 40g of fat in them. You know what else? Cheese isn’t something to be afraid of, and neither is butter. I’m not a lard ass and never will be. My bodyfat has ALWAYS been under complete control.

If you’re hung up on eating clean, for the love of god use it to your advantage and don’t let it hamper your progress! Here’s what I mean: at the end of the day ENERGY balance matters more than what you ate. If you’re stuffing your face with low-calorie, ‘healthy to the masses’ foods all day, you won’t end up with a high enough intake of calories. Eat more red meat, cook your meals in oils and butter, make carbs functional, and prioritize fruits and vegetables over all starches (unless the starches are the better option).

Your mental disorder right now is a hangup on bodyfat. This isn’t Bodybuilding.com, I do not condone getting a new pair of breasts in your life, but being moderately soft is not going to kill you. Also, what girls (or guys) are going to see your increased bodyfat all the time? It begs to ask the question…who are you doing this for?

Think about it.

The guys who said to eat, lift weights, and check up on your body in the mirror said it best. KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.[/quote]

thanks for that post. I do live in South Florida though so beach season is 365 days a year. I am only this concerned about bodyfat because I have actually been in the position of bulking and putting on A LOT of fat. However that was back in college, and I was dirty bulking at that time, so there is really nothing similar to what I am doing now vs. back in college, other than that it is a bulk.

42

I sense a “no-bulk” coming.

43

[quote]shoobey wrote:
nz6stringaxe wrote:
Hey man, listen to a voice of experience who has been in your shoes.

I was obsessed with eating immaculately (and I pretty much still do). I do not cheat at all, really. I’m always too full of good food and all the nutrients I need before my body craves them. Cooking has become a significant part of my life. Health is a huge concern for me. I believe in the bodybuilding that keeps you young and immune from disease even at age 60.

You know what I did this year? I wrote down every gram of every morsel of food that flew past my teeth. You know what I learned almost immediately? I’d never been eating as much as I thought I had. I’d been eating all this low-fat nonsense even when I ate a fair bit of peanut butter, olive oil, and flaxmeal. I think my ‘fattier’ days back then may have had 40g of fat in them. You know what else? Cheese isn’t something to be afraid of, and neither is butter. I’m not a lard ass and never will be. My bodyfat has ALWAYS been under complete control.

If you’re hung up on eating clean, for the love of god use it to your advantage and don’t let it hamper your progress! Here’s what I mean: at the end of the day ENERGY balance matters more than what you ate. If you’re stuffing your face with low-calorie, ‘healthy to the masses’ foods all day, you won’t end up with a high enough intake of calories. Eat more red meat, cook your meals in oils and butter, make carbs functional, and prioritize fruits and vegetables over all starches (unless the starches are the better option).

Your mental disorder right now is a hangup on bodyfat. This isn’t Bodybuilding.com, I do not condone getting a new pair of breasts in your life, but being moderately soft is not going to kill you. Also, what girls (or guys) are going to see your increased bodyfat all the time? It begs to ask the question…who are you doing this for?

Think about it.

The guys who said to eat, lift weights, and check up on your body in the mirror said it best. KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.

thanks for that post. I do live in South Florida though so beach season is 365 days a year. I am only this concerned about bodyfat because I have actually been in the position of bulking and putting on A LOT of fat. However that was back in college, and I was dirty bulking at that time, so there is really nothing similar to what I am doing now vs. back in college, other than that it is a bulk.
[/quote]
Remember, you can’t gain 60lbs of fat overnight.
If you sense a storm brewing…it probably is. Gain 5lbs of fat and fix something. You made a small error, but nothing you can’t live through, fix later, and use learning from that mistake to your advantage.

44

[quote]shoobey wrote:
nz6stringaxe wrote:
Hey man, listen to a voice of experience who has been in your shoes.

I was obsessed with eating immaculately (and I pretty much still do). I do not cheat at all, really. I’m always too full of good food and all the nutrients I need before my body craves them. Cooking has become a significant part of my life. Health is a huge concern for me. I believe in the bodybuilding that keeps you young and immune from disease even at age 60.

You know what I did this year? I wrote down every gram of every morsel of food that flew past my teeth. You know what I learned almost immediately? I’d never been eating as much as I thought I had. I’d been eating all this low-fat nonsense even when I ate a fair bit of peanut butter, olive oil, and flaxmeal. I think my ‘fattier’ days back then may have had 40g of fat in them. You know what else? Cheese isn’t something to be afraid of, and neither is butter. I’m not a lard ass and never will be. My bodyfat has ALWAYS been under complete control.

If you’re hung up on eating clean, for the love of god use it to your advantage and don’t let it hamper your progress! Here’s what I mean: at the end of the day ENERGY balance matters more than what you ate. If you’re stuffing your face with low-calorie, ‘healthy to the masses’ foods all day, you won’t end up with a high enough intake of calories. Eat more red meat, cook your meals in oils and butter, make carbs functional, and prioritize fruits and vegetables over all starches (unless the starches are the better option).

Your mental disorder right now is a hangup on bodyfat. This isn’t Bodybuilding.com, I do not condone getting a new pair of breasts in your life, but being moderately soft is not going to kill you. Also, what girls (or guys) are going to see your increased bodyfat all the time? It begs to ask the question…who are you doing this for?

Think about it.

The guys who said to eat, lift weights, and check up on your body in the mirror said it best. KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.

thanks for that post. I do live in South Florida though so beach season is 365 days a year. I am only this concerned about bodyfat because I have actually been in the position of bulking and putting on A LOT of fat. However that was back in college, and I was dirty bulking at that time, so there is really nothing similar to what I am doing now vs. back in college, other than that it is a bulk.
[/quote]

The trouble is, you have bad information and your beliefs are incorrect.

There is noting wrong with bulking - or ‘dirty’ bulking even… but it doesn’t mean one gets fat - not in the slightest.

Bulking should NEVER make you fat. Sure you may gain some fat… this is absolutely paramount to ensuring you have at least a small excess in calories to gain muscle at the peak rate, but to get fat simply means you were doing it wrong. Getting fat isn’t about ‘dirty’ bulking - that is more like getting fat due to overeating of the wrong foods!

Let me put it like this… lets assume for the point of argument i have dieted down to 8%, which would IRL drop me from my current 210lbs to around 200lbs.
If this were the case i would have gained approx. 80lbs of muscle with 0lbs of fat over the past 13 years. How does that sound? Good?
Well what about if i tell you that in order to do that i needed to gain some quantity of fat? (apart from 8% of 200lbs being a lot more than 8% of 120lbs) i am currently 210lbs and at the MOST 15%. I have never been above 15% - and am more likely between 12-15%.
The point is, if i was frightened of getting fat - or even softening the edges, i would now be nearer 160lbs… not 210.
You either need to play the long game to have a better than average physique (especially if it is not in your genes to be shredded 24/7 - and as a former fatboy it prolly isn’t) OR you need to stay lean and not concern yourself with ‘bulking’ Just eat clean and train, and naturally over the years due to the drops in metabolism that occur anyway, you will gain more size - just very slowly.

And trust me, everyone isn’t going to be writing home about how damn fat your are when you walk down the beach at a muscular and strong 12-15%. However when you do finally have enough muscle to diet down to 6% which will reveal a ton of muscle - they WILL be writing home about a massive and shredded guy on the beach.

Also while creatine is effective for a non-hormonal, naturally occuring, legal, amino based supplement - you seem to be attributing effects to it that are nearer the effect from supra-physiological amounts of testosterone! The point is - apart from the retention being intramuscular, not Subcutaneous - it is also not anything near the effect that would be largely noticeable to others by eye.
As you learned yourself, it is good for a performance enhancement effect for a rep or two or upto 10% of load. This is amazing for a supplement of the type it is - but in regards to being worried about using it for the effects it may have on your physique, negative or positive - or that it is so effective, that ‘bulking’ without it is pointless - is nothing short of ridiculous.

Brook

45

Another 140 pounder would will spin his wheels and bite the dust.

Oh well, at least he can type properly.

46

[quote]DOHCrazy wrote:
Another 140 pounder would will spin his wheels and bite the dust.

Oh well, at least he can type properly. [/quote]

that’s not at all what I want to do, I look downright manorexic from my cut and I need to put weight on ASAP. I’m comfortable with putting on fat during a bulk but I just want to minimize it without sacrificing muscle gain.

I have a feeling most of the “140 pounders” you get on here are people that are just starting out lifting and think they should cut to get lean and defined, but like I said before that is not the position I am in. I only weigh 140 lbs because I lost all the weight I put on from my lifting haitus and I wanted to just get rid of the fat once and for all so I could finally focus on bulking.

Believe me it’s not fun having your cuts being limited by the fact that I will look sickly skinny if I cut too long and have a dangerously low bodyweight. I need to get to the point where I can cut and still look healthy and not look small.

My long term goal has always been to be as big as possible while being as lean as possible, I am not one of those people that wants the lean and small look, I want the lean and big look (the most a natural lifter could achieve I guess)

47

[quote] Brook wrote:
shoobey wrote:
nz6stringaxe wrote:
Hey man, listen to a voice of experience who has been in your shoes.

I was obsessed with eating immaculately (and I pretty much still do). I do not cheat at all, really. I’m always too full of good food and all the nutrients I need before my body craves them. Cooking has become a significant part of my life. Health is a huge concern for me. I believe in the bodybuilding that keeps you young and immune from disease even at age 60.

You know what I did this year? I wrote down every gram of every morsel of food that flew past my teeth. You know what I learned almost immediately? I’d never been eating as much as I thought I had. I’d been eating all this low-fat nonsense even when I ate a fair bit of peanut butter, olive oil, and flaxmeal. I think my ‘fattier’ days back then may have had 40g of fat in them. You know what else? Cheese isn’t something to be afraid of, and neither is butter. I’m not a lard ass and never will be. My bodyfat has ALWAYS been under complete control.

If you’re hung up on eating clean, for the love of god use it to your advantage and don’t let it hamper your progress! Here’s what I mean: at the end of the day ENERGY balance matters more than what you ate. If you’re stuffing your face with low-calorie, ‘healthy to the masses’ foods all day, you won’t end up with a high enough intake of calories. Eat more red meat, cook your meals in oils and butter, make carbs functional, and prioritize fruits and vegetables over all starches (unless the starches are the better option).

Your mental disorder right now is a hangup on bodyfat. This isn’t Bodybuilding.com, I do not condone getting a new pair of breasts in your life, but being moderately soft is not going to kill you. Also, what girls (or guys) are going to see your increased bodyfat all the time? It begs to ask the question…who are you doing this for?

Think about it.

The guys who said to eat, lift weights, and check up on your body in the mirror said it best. KISS. Keep it simple, stupid.

thanks for that post. I do live in South Florida though so beach season is 365 days a year. I am only this concerned about bodyfat because I have actually been in the position of bulking and putting on A LOT of fat. However that was back in college, and I was dirty bulking at that time, so there is really nothing similar to what I am doing now vs. back in college, other than that it is a bulk.

The trouble is, you have bad information and your beliefs are incorrect.

There is noting wrong with bulking - or ‘dirty’ bulking even… but it doesn’t mean one gets fat - not in the slightest.

Bulking should NEVER make you fat. Sure you may gain some fat… this is absolutely paramount to ensuring you have at least a small excess in calories to gain muscle at the peak rate, but to get fat simply means you were doing it wrong. Getting fat isn’t about ‘dirty’ bulking - that is more like getting fat due to overeating of the wrong foods!

Let me put it like this… lets assume for the point of argument i have dieted down to 8%, which would IRL drop me from my current 210lbs to around 200lbs.
If this were the case i would have gained approx. 80lbs of muscle with 0lbs of fat over the past 13 years. How does that sound? Good?
Well what about if i tell you that in order to do that i needed to gain some quantity of fat? (apart from 8% of 200lbs being a lot more than 8% of 120lbs) i am currently 210lbs and at the MOST 15%. I have never been above 15% - and am more likely between 12-15%.
The point is, if i was frightened of getting fat - or even softening the edges, i would now be nearer 160lbs… not 210.
You either need to play the long game to have a better than average physique (especially if it is not in your genes to be shredded 24/7 - and as a former fatboy it prolly isn’t) OR you need to stay lean and not concern yourself with ‘bulking’ Just eat clean and train, and naturally over the years due to the drops in metabolism that occur anyway, you will gain more size - just very slowly.

And trust me, everyone isn’t going to be writing home about how damn fat your are when you walk down the beach at a muscular and strong 12-15%. However when you do finally have enough muscle to diet down to 6% which will reveal a ton of muscle - they WILL be writing home about a massive and shredded guy on the beach.

Also while creatine is effective for a non-hormonal, naturally occuring, legal, amino based supplement - you seem to be attributing effects to it that are nearer the effect from supra-physiological amounts of testosterone! The point is - apart from the retention being intramuscular, not Subcutaneous - it is also not anything near the effect that would be largely noticeable to others by eye.
As you learned yourself, it is good for a performance enhancement effect for a rep or two or upto 10% of load. This is amazing for a supplement of the type it is - but in regards to being worried about using it for the effects it may have on your physique, negative or positive - or that it is so effective, that ‘bulking’ without it is pointless - is nothing short of ridiculous.

Brook[/quote]

thanks for that post, you are not talking to a brick wall and I fully understand the point you are making. My mindset has completely changed since I made this thread and I think at this point I will forget about fat gain, since it’s clear to see that I will never get past the point of becoming tiny after I cut unless I finally suck it up and deal with the fat gain in order to gain some real size for once and change my body drastically, instead of just altering definition like I have been.

As far as the bulking being pointless without creatine, I didn’t mean it to sound like I am asking if a bulk without taking creatine is useless and not worth doing. That is obviously retarded and makes no sense.

I should have worded it “is not taking creatine during a bulk pointless?”, as in is there any reason to not take it if you are bulking, since it is so cheap?

48

Which is it? You have now said your fat gain was from a break from lifting, AND from a previous “dirty bulk”. Which is it?

Second: You WILL NOT achieve your goal of AS BIG AS POSSIBLE, if you use your abz as an indicator. Lose the abz, gains muscle and fat, get fucking big (and strong), THEN worry about your silly abz. You can’t have both at the same time.

Much more of the same old thing, and your gonna sound like your trolling. (unless you already are)

Edit: started this before your last post. Hopefully you will follow through with that mentality.

49

[quote]cueball wrote:
Which is it? You have now said your fat gain was from a break from lifting, AND from a previous “dirty bulk”. Which is it?

Second: You WILL NOT achieve your goal of AS BIG AS POSSIBLE, if you use your abz as an indicator. Lose the abz, gains muscle and fat, get fucking big (and strong), THEN worry about your silly abz. You can’t have both at the same time.

Much more of the same old thing, and your gonna sound like your trolling. (unless you already are)[/quote]

No I never said that THIS fat gain was from a dirty bulk, I was just saying in the past I have dirty bulked and put on excessive fat, but that was about 4 years ago if not more. When I dirty bulked I didn’t get all out fat, just put on too much fat, but I also put on a lot of muscle.

But what caused me to start cutting this time happened when I was with my ex gf for about a year and a half and for some reason I just lost the motivation to lift/exercise for the entire time I was with her, then I started again as soon as I ended the relationship. Although when I dirty bulked I did put on fat, I was still lifting regularly the entire time even though I ate like crap. But this time, I was eating just as bad as I did on my past dirty bulk, but was also doing zero exercise, so I put on solid fat that needed to be dropped before I focused on gaining size again. But you should read what I post more carefully at least if you are going to call me out for saying inconsistent things.

I realize only now that you can’t have abs and pile on mass at the same time, it’s one or the other. But like I said my mindset is completely changed now, I am not going to dick around with trying to eat clean and minimize fat gain while bulking, I’m going to just see how much I need to eat in order to gain the right amount of weight per week. Whether I need to clean bulk or dirty bulk to do that I am not sure yet, but once I figure out than I will do what I need to do to put on size.

50

How do you tell if you are putting on excessive fat vs. the minimal amount that you can’t avoid?

51

[quote]shoobey wrote:
How do you tell if you are putting on excessive fat vs. the minimal amount that you can’t avoid?[/quote]

Waist measurement goes up, the others don’t.

52

Mirror!

The statement that you MUST lose the abs to get big and strong as possible isnt strictly true - not for myself at least… it depends on your makeup.

For example, if you are naturally slim and lean - an ectomorph, then it is common to see abs well into a bulk, and i have NEVER lost my abs… they show at 15% and i spend months bulking to get from 10-15% in bodyfat (thats generally how i cycle my bulking periods - i dont strictly cut and wont until i want to compete.

Most pro’s don’t lose their abs when bulking either… but some have to simply as they put fat on at the stomach so fast, as soon as they leave 12% they are very blurry. Not that i am using the pro’s as an example of what’ll happen to you - just as the extreme.

The thing is, this is where experience comes in - and if you dont have any, its where you GET it! So from your lean and skinny beginnings… take a photo - in 10-15 years (sounds like a sentence like that!) you will appreciate it. Begin eating more - whether that is counted or not is your choice, by the time the day comes when you can safely say you are ‘experienced’ i am willig to bet you will have tried both counting and not to gain. You will learn how long it takes before you start gaining fat too fat - both in macronutrients and calories (the calories factor is ever changing of course) - if you used to be very fat and gain fat fast - you may find controlling carbs the best way to avoid that. In most cases this is the… erm… case.

As the most simple and effective rule of thumb i would suggest eating your bodyweight multiplied by 20kcals… so if you are 150lbs… eat 3000kcals.
Ensure you get in 1g/lb of protein, everyday, at least. THEN concentrate on eating crabs… stick to the majority of wholegrains and fibrous carbs… but dont restrict anything you want - just aim to eat healthily and have a treat when you like too. This is the best method for ME… different things work for different people.

Eat fish and oils… EVOO, flax and fish oils. Eat nuts and seeds, avocados and peanut butter.

Never get hungry, and they say never get too full but in order to gain I PERSONALLY need to feed to bursting - however i am ‘enhanced’ so can utilise more than an natural would.

In conclusion if you eat clean, prioritise the proteins but don’t restrict anything, you will have a decent composition gain.

But you will need to tweak as you go.

I wouldnt recommend it to a ‘regular’ civvie client, but weighting morning and evening is a good indicator of what is going on - when it is regular like this you get a feel for what is water and what is food and what is there to stay.
Use the mirror and girth measurements to assess fat. The ‘if you can pinch it’ method is good too IME.

:wink:

53

[quote] Brook wrote:
Mirror!

The statement that you MUST lose the abs to get big and strong as possible isnt strictly true - not for myself at least… it depends on your makeup.

For example, if you are naturally slim and lean - an ectomorph, then it is common to see abs well into a bulk, and i have NEVER lost my abs… they show at 15% and i spend months bulking to get from 10-15% in bodyfat (thats generally how i cycle my bulking periods - i dont strictly cut and wont until i want to compete.

Most pro’s don’t lose their abs when bulking either… but some have to simply as they put fat on at the stomach so fast, as soon as they leave 12% they are very blurry. Not that i am using the pro’s as an example of what’ll happen to you - just as the extreme.

The thing is, this is where experience comes in - and if you dont have any, its where you GET it! So from your lean and skinny beginnings… take a photo - in 10-15 years (sounds like a sentence like that!) you will appreciate it. Begin eating more - whether that is counted or not is your choice, by the time the day comes when you can safely say you are ‘experienced’ i am willig to bet you will have tried both counting and not to gain. You will learn how long it takes before you start gaining fat too fat - both in macronutrients and calories (the calories factor is ever changing of course) - if you used to be very fat and gain fat fast - you may find controlling carbs the best way to avoid that. In most cases this is the… erm… case.

As the most simple and effective rule of thumb i would suggest eating your bodyweight multiplied by 20kcals… so if you are 150lbs… eat 3000kcals.
Ensure you get in 1g/lb of protein, everyday, at least. THEN concentrate on eating crabs… stick to the majority of wholegrains and fibrous carbs… but dont restrict anything you want - just aim to eat healthily and have a treat when you like too. This is the best method for ME… different things work for different people.

Eat fish and oils… EVOO, flax and fish oils. Eat nuts and seeds, avocados and peanut butter.

Never get hungry, and they say never get too full but in order to gain I PERSONALLY need to feed to bursting - however i am ‘enhanced’ so can utilise more than an natural would.

In conclusion if you eat clean, prioritise the proteins but don’t restrict anything, you will have a decent composition gain.

But you will need to tweak as you go.

I wouldnt recommend it to a ‘regular’ civvie client, but weighting morning and evening is a good indicator of what is going on - when it is regular like this you get a feel for what is water and what is food and what is there to stay.
Use the mirror and girth measurements to assess fat. The ‘if you can pinch it’ method is good too IME.

;)[/quote]

thanks for all that, very helpful info. I usually weigh myself in the morning, but sometimes I eat closer to bed time and it seems to carry over into the morning. One morning my weight is 139, the next morning it is 145. My weight also fluctuates substantially during the day, I can weigh anywhere from 139-149 at any point in a day, but I also do drink an insane amount of water so I am sure that is to blame for that.

54

OP- your ego got the best of you, and it’s making you look like a moron. And after reading your posts, that’s what I have to conclude. Please don’t respond to me

@ Brook: some good info you gave here. I’m taking away a lot from it. Just felt like you should know

55

[quote]jCaesar88 wrote:
OP- your ego got the best of you, and it’s making you look like a moron. And after reading your posts, that’s what I have to conclude. Please don’t respond to me
[/quote]

Well I am going to respond anyway, I have no ego whatsover and I know my place, especially on this website. I’m happy that I was able to reach low bodyfat for once in my life, but I don’t think being lean @ 140 really makes me feel egotistical or that I am a bad ass or anything like that.

I do believe I know how to cut properly though, just not bulk. Although relative to the average person on here I am a complete newb, I have actually been training since I was 17 (currently 23 now), obviously with lots of wasted time of unecessary cutting and bulking and time off here and there though

56

LOLLLLL you don’t know how to bulk OR cut. Just stay quiet… actually no, go on, humor me
waits for “oh yeah? so YOU know how to cut and bulk???”

57

[quote]jCaesar88 wrote:
LOLLLLL you don’t know how to bulk OR cut. Just stay quiet… actually no, go on, humor me
waits for “oh yeah? so YOU know how to cut and bulk???”[/quote]

why do you assume I don’t know how to cut? Just because I am not sure how to bulk doesn’t mean I am not sure how to cut? I don’t think that knowing how to lose fat automatically means you know how to build muscle, but I do consider myself to be pretty educated on how to lose fat while retaining muscle based on what I did for my own cut

58

Ceasar, this is shoobey.

Edit: since I don’t know if pics are loading or not.

59

Ceasar, this is you. Just judging by the pics, I’d say he might know a little more than you. Just an observation.

60

[quote]shoobey wrote:
jCaesar88 wrote:
LOLLLLL you don’t know how to bulk OR cut. Just stay quiet… actually no, go on, humor me
waits for “oh yeah? so YOU know how to cut and bulk???”

why do you assume I don’t know how to cut? Just because I am not sure how to bulk doesn’t mean I am not sure how to cut? I don’t think that knowing how to lose fat automatically means you know how to build muscle, but I do consider myself to be pretty educated on how to lose fat while retaining muscle based on what I did for my own cut[/quote]

You are ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY pounds. What do your mean [quote]but I do consider myself to be pretty educated on how to lose fat while retaining muscle[/quote]?

Unless you are 4’10" you didn’t retain shit.