If you want to open the door to sarcasm perhaps reading the post would help. See where it reads, “at and have been…” That would lead one to the conclusion that I’m perhaps not only talking about “DC…some mystical magical place where everyone except Dick Cheney is huge, ripped and healthy.”
but I guess your correct…only 1 person in California is in excellent shape…with your sedentary friends waiting for you to die…or something like that. Why bother with being precise…
If your argument is being strong, and obese is your hot ticket just because the strong guy at your gym is doing it then I guess I have to disagree with you.
Actually, all exercise is free radical producing. Granted aerobic exrcise produces more. However, If you lift hard for and hour or so I don’t imagine you are producing less free radicals than if you jog for 30 minutes or so.
The answer is to make sure that you are consuming anti-oxidants in their proper quantities. Best done by eating fresh fruits and vegetables. Also, supplement with certain key nutrients.
As far as extra body weight goes, I think that if it’s muscle and you are living, eating and training properly you will be fine.[/quote]
And I wanted to add that 30 sets in a workout would be very rare for me. In a typical 4 day period I will do
4-6 heavy triples on the squat one day + 3 sets of heavy abs,goodmornings OR shrugs.
4-6 heavy triples on the bench the next + 3 sets of heavy triceps, biceps OR light shoulders the next.
maybe 8x3 rack clean pulls on day 3
and maybe 6-10 total sets of 2-6 reps of rows and chins on day 4. And then start over the next day at day 1.
The sets might rise to the 15-20 range
with some lighter isolation work for a week from time to time and I might go up to 10-12 reps occasionally.
That’s about 24 reps a day baseline. The trick is to use every muscle in your body for everything. I can tell you that my glutes, traps, lats, abs, neck, hams, calves, quads, lower back, and forearms all get worked hard from a bench workout.
That basic workout has got to be something like 30-50 calories. I also might finish up with 5 minutes as fast as possible on the exercise bike.
[quote]The_Incubator wrote:
To keep it up into the 70s and beyond is just that much more impressive an accomplishment. We don’t see many people like this simply because very few people are are mentally capable of the achievement. [/quote]
Or physically/physiologically capable! Remember ageing is is now being considered by many researchers to be another disease to be cured
Health is somewhat subjective. Quality of life vs. length of life? Who knows?
Lift, get big, stay healthy, I for one will continue and benefit from it.
Show me a study proving your point and I’ll show you a study disproving it. Studies come and studies go. Reality where I’m at and have been is I do not see, know, meet, hear of…200lb…180lb…nor 175lb muscular men over 60…65…70…75…
.[/quote]
The incubator pretty much said all that needed to be said. You don’t see many who are over the age of 60 because there are so few who lift weights in the first place. Albert Beckles, the last I saw of him on a Montel Williams episode years back was over 60 and still had arms that appeared to be at or over 20". Sergio Oliva is still alive and has to be near that age by now. If you want more examples, you will simply have to wait a few more decades until I reach 60.
The vast majority of people who reach middle age and beyond now are sedentary folk with sustainable diseases. The average person over 60 is on at least 5 different medications and living with ailments like diabetes, high blood pressure, and even cancer. Medications today make many of these afflictions less detrimental to life itself, but take away much from the quality of life. Out of the many people I know, I know maybe five personally who are serious about bodybuilding and have stuck with it for years. The average person may stick with this for a while, however, as soon as they get married, have kids and start a career, they gain 30lbs and begin the downward spiral. Your argument is pointless. You are making a claim that muscular people who lift weights live fewer years than sedentary people. Nothing backs that up…and that includes common sense. If the average person even cared about their health before it was too late, the pharmaceutical industry wouldn’t be making billions hand over fist. You are claiming that to live longer, I should stop training and jump on meds like every one else? Do you have anyone else supporting this twisted line of thought…besides you?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
…You don’t see many who are over the age of 60 because there are so few who lift weights in the first place…
The vast majority of people who reach middle age and beyond now are sedentary folk with sustainable diseases…[/quote]
I think there is another obvious reason why you don’t see 70-year-old, 260-pound, ripped bodybuilders that has nothing to do with bad lifestyle habits. It’s called “ageing.”
Even if you had lifted weights all your adult life, let’s not overlook the fact that when you become part of the geriatric set, your workouts are not going to be anywhere near as intense as when you were in your 20s and 30s, regardless of your dedication.
If you’re 260 now at age 20-30 as a result of massive eating and balls-to-the-walls training with scary weights, it’s wishful thinking to believe your body can sustain that level of training for another 30-40 years. (X, I doubt even you will be able to maintain your current training regiment, and thus body composition, when you’re pushing 70. Sure, you could probably still weigh 260 at the time, but I can almost guarantee that you won’t have the same amount of muscle.)
Your joints and tendons just aren’t going to hold up to taking decades of that kind of stress. Dave Draper, as good as he looks today, still trains but with much lighter weights and total reps. He says age catches up with you, so you have to adjust and train accordingly. As a result, he is smaller today than he was during his prime.
I don’t think so. Free radical production is proportional to calories expended. An elite 10 K runner burns about 200 cal/mile at top speed. That’s 1200 in less than 30 minutes. Remember that oxidative metabolism happens in the mitochonria which are non-existant in white muscle fiber. Even the most extreme estimate I have read is that Arnold burned about 2000 calories in 2 1/2 hour workout and did something like 110 total sets + posing. That’s 13 cals/minute or 19 per set. If I did 30 hard sets in an hour that would be maybe 500 cals. Also, the problem is pushing free radical production above free radical removal.[/quote]
“An elite 10-k runner” can in fact burn 1200 calories in under 30 min. LOL, let me give you a little reality check my friend. You and I are not going to go out and run hard enough to burn “1200 calories in under 30 min.” Not going to happen! Maybe half that or around 600 calories. If you lift for an hour you will also be around the same, just as I said.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You are claiming that to live longer, I should stop training and jump on meds like every one else? Do you have anyone else supporting this twisted line of thought…besides you?[/quote]
Yep…I guess you’re right…that’s what I’m claiming…? Nothing gets past the ole Prof just to quick for dumb ole us. Then again when you add, deduct or pretty much change what a person post to fit your needs that isn’t intelligence just old fashioned bullying. You are da man…in your own twisted little world. Yeah…I’m sure to wait the 30+ years to get you to turn 60 with all that there muscle…
BTW…seen Sergio Oliva lately? How about you take a look at the reunion DVD of Pumping Iron. Don’t give me this “I’ll be the epitome of health at 60”…when you ain’t there now.
[quote]Croooz wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You are claiming that to live longer, I should stop training and jump on meds like every one else? Do you have anyone else supporting this twisted line of thought…besides you?
Yep…I guess you’re right…that’s what I’m claiming…? Nothing gets past the ole Prof just to quick for dumb ole us. Then again when you add, deduct or pretty much change what a person post to fit your needs that isn’t intelligence just old fashioned bullying. You are da man…in your own twisted little world. Yeah…I’m sure to wait the 30+ years to get you to turn 60 with all that there muscle…
BTW…seen Sergio Oliva lately? How about you take a look at the reunion DVD of Pumping Iron. Don’t give me this “I’ll be the epitome of health at 60”…when you ain’t there now.[/quote]
Who has said I plan to be the epitome of health at 60? I don’t know if I will be alive next week. I try to live life the best I can and if something happens out of my control, there really isn’t much I can do about it, is there? I do plan to continue training for the rest of my life, come what may. As far as Sergio Oliva, according to most, the man should be dead by now regardless of his current shape today at 60+. Compare him to most other 60 year olds on the planet and I don’t see your point. I don’t live my life for the one year I may be 60 years old. That wouldn’t make much sense, would it? Outside of saving money so you aren’t broke should you reach that age, living for some unknown date 30-40 years in the future is retarded.
You want to make the claim that large muscles cause you to live shorter lives. Nothing backs that up, including that last post. Please, show me the thousands of in shape 60+ year olds who never lifted weights and never gained any muscle who aren’t currently on some type of medication. You will be about as lucky finding one as you will be finding those who continued to lift. That is a matter of priorities in that person’s life.
[quote]Croooz wrote:
BTW…seen Sergio Oliva lately? How about you take a look at the reunion DVD of Pumping Iron. Don’t give me this “I’ll be the epitome of health at 60”…when you ain’t there now.[/quote]
What about Sergio? I haven’t seen him lately. You know he was shot in the chest in a stearoid induced rage. I think the bullet missed his heart by 1/2 inch and is still in there. I bet he’s probably lived beyond the normal life expectancy for individuals shot in the chest in a steroid induced rage. Just my opinion.
On the other had, I am curious why the life expectancy for an NFL lineman is 52, while we’ll probably see those tiny kickers kicking into their 50s pretty soon.
I think it comes down to this. People with a natural capacity to put on muscle also have other inherent factors that limit their lifespan. I don’t know why so many NFL linemen seem to have congenital heart defects. Maybe they should have died younger and their still around because of their condition. Maybe its the stimulants?
Why aren’t there many 70 year old guys who weigh a solid 225? Well, remember, 20 years ago, a big baseball slugger was 6-0 190 (Hank Aaron). What’s the chance that a 70 year old who grew up in the 50s and 60s even had a weight room at his highschool?
I’m serious about lifting and want to pack on another 20 pounds or so, but started wondering when does being big become a problem. I have heard stories of body builders (granted, they weigh like 450 pounds more than I do) barely able to walk a mile. I would no consider that being in good shape.
So basically my main question is:
When, if ever, does it become unhealthy to body build?
In the course of your quest for 20lbs of muscle, monitor yourself in all the objective measures of health (VO2 Max, HR, BP, etc), and your level of satisfaction with your body. If any of these measures approach what you would consider unhealthy or you become unhappy, consider if the building of your body is causing the change (not altered diet, occupation/relational stress, environmental factors,etc.) If the bb is the cause, it has become unhealth. Scale back and continue forever. Then you’ll know. Untill then, go with what makes you feel best now, and realize that your girlfriend (if she is that big of an influence) may not have any better information than the rest of the general population.
I personally feel that we can look at the situation like this. Clean living is better than other options. Strong is better than weak. Muscle is better than fat. Live clean, build muscle, be strong. They go hand in hand.
Secondary Questions :
Who would be considered in better health… Ronnie Coleman or Napoleon Dynamite? I relaize those are two extremes and the answer is somewhere in the middle I’m sure… but I’m not curious about the middle.[/quote]
Napoleon Dynamite. He’s pretty wicked with a bo staff.
According to the original BMI charts from the Metropolitan Life Insurance company (created around 1947, post war) no average man (6’2" or shorter)should be considered healthy at a weight greater than 207lbs.
These charts are still in use.
I know a 60 year old guy, about 5-6 145, who every summer rode his bike across the country and back. Last year he couldn’t make it any more. He had to take a bus through some parts of the country. He said he just wasn’t strong enough anymore. He said he wishes that he had lifted weights some when he was younger. Also, I’ve know a few older folks fracture a hip or pelvis, go into the hospital and never come back. The simple fact is, we are 10-20 years from having ANY statistics on any long term health issues related to muscle building. In 1985, the average adult american male between 20-35 benched 125 pounds. Now its 187. The first 20 guys to hit 500 homeruns in major league baseball averaged 6-0 198. The top 10 sluggers today average 6-2 225. In 1981, no lineman the NFL all league team weighed more than 262 (on paper at least). Now the AVERAGE lineman is 295. Also, the average male american has gone from 5-10 155 to 6-0 180 since 1985! And yet life expectancies keep rising. Insurance companies using charts from 1947 is a SCAM. Weight correlates to lower lifespan, but when bodyfat percentage is factored out and only “non fat bodyweight” is correlated, there is zero correlation. And who cares. I don’t want to be 60, and be “just not strong enough” to walk up a flight of stairs despite having done intense aerobic exercise all my life (which I haven’t but I do need SOME more of) 100% of the health benefits from aerobic training occur with 150-180 minutes a week. 85% with an hour and ten minutes A WEEK. Every minute above 180 minutes a week of aerobic training DECREASES every marker of good health in the book.
Well, I can’t believe how much “belief” there is that being large will kill you off early.
If we assume natural athletes only, such that large isn’t some crazy size that has nothing to do with reality, we don’t really have any evidence.
What we do have is a lot of anecdotal crap and leftover nutritional misconceptions:
eating too much cholestoral
eating too much fat
eating too much meat
eating too much protein
Most of us know that issues such as these have been debunked. It is when the above habits are combined with a sedentary lifestyle and massive simple carbohydrate feeds that problems occur.
Where’s the beef? Oh, umm, I mean, where’s the evidence!
Many years ago a Professor at UCLA, Dr. Roy Wolford begin an experiment in anti-aging called “caloric restriction.” Most of you have heard of this I’m sure. When I heard of it I thought nice idea, but there is no way I am going to go down to a 1600 calorie per day diet. Nope…not me!
Wolford stated that it was not about how many calories that you burn, but how many you do not take in. He further claimed that 90% of all free radicals generated were done so by food consumption. He claimed that if you restricted your caloric intake you could live to 120. This man lived what he preached! Unfortuneately for him, he died a couple of years ago at the age of 80.
On the ohter hand we have someon like Jack LaLane who has always preached a healthy lifestyle, natural foods and physical fitness as the best way to extend your life span. LaLane turned 90 this past September and did 90 Push-ups in a row as part of the celebration!
[quote]Strongarm wrote:
Take it easy guys. I happen to respect 99% of what Prof. X says. It was a joke! Sorry, bad taste I guess. Call it a satirical take on how most people view us “muscleheads”. By the way, I have never eaten Krispy Kremes, and never intend to.[/quote]
I only read this thread after you had deleted your comment. What the hell did you say to get that reaction?!?! PM if you don’t mind - I’m curious!
On a side note:
Sleep Apnea
This is what led to Reggie White’s death. Many football linemen have it. Over time they develop pulmonary hypertension.
Obstructive sleep apnea is accompanied by snoring. Some have obstruction of the airway because of enlarged tonsils and or adenoids. Some have it because there is so much fat around the neck that it starts to constrict the air passage ways when they are lying down. Unfortunately any large amount of tissue around the neck will do the same thing… this includes muscles (ugh).
An ENT doc can fix the tonsil or adenoid problem. Exercise and diet can get rid of the neck fat.
If your frame is unsuited to carry extra weight, then extra weight is unhealthy. That’s it.
Untrained, I would be an ectomorphic 155 lbs at 6’1. I personally found that as I broke 200 lbs at 11%, I felt distinctly worse than I did at 190. Simply carrying the weight wore me down.
Hey MertDawg, Where did you get this statistic from?
“In 1985, the average adult american male between 20-35 benched 125 pounds. Now its 187 [lbs].”
Have you ever seen a non weight-training person pick up a bar for the first time - they would be lucky to bench 100lbs.
Unless fifty per cent of the american population is involved in regular benching - this figure just doesn’t ring true.
I know 187 might seem small here but for an ordinary Joe, it would be a phenomenal achievement.
This link (http://home.comcast.net/~joandbryce/hwgdami.htm) shows a rough barometer of what’s generally considered decent strength for trained individuals, stating that a press of bodyweight is considered “not to be ashamed of” and one of 115 per cent of your own bodyweight regarded as reasonably impressive.
Considering the average person weighs between 160-200, this 187lbs average figure is extraordinarily hard to believe.
Fifty per cent of men I know - and I’m talking regular individuals - couldn’t do a single chin-up let alone a bodyweight BP.