Iranian Nuclear Program

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]pat36 wrote:
hedo wrote:
Your a dumbass anti-american bigot who writes some stupid idiotic things. This is probably the most idiotic thing you’ve written and you have set some high standards. Well done.

Just because you are weak and cowardly it doesn’t mean that people who are not will listen to you. Why don’t you help the Iranians build some more bunkers…you guys are good at those right? Maybe they’ll attack you last.

You need to realize. If the idea makes sense to you it’s probably not going to work in the real world. Giving up and accepting things that are wrong is a cowardly way to live your life, as you well know.

It’s actually just a current fad in Europe. Anti-American is in, so they all just follow along like sheep.
You see these fine people actually deserve our pity. They suffer from a debilitating form of stupidity known as arrogance. They will fill the forums with empty facts taken out of the context of history to make America look bad while totally ignoring the fact that over the past 100 years more blood has been spilt in and because of Europe, then anywhere else in the world. And why did it come to world wars? Because the initial strategies were appeasement and peace at any cost.

Let us also not for get that they are ridiculing America on an American website, hosted by Americans, on American servers (Sun servers are still American made BTW). Maybe not all the part in them but more or less), reading articles and taking advise from Americans.
[/quote]

Wow, 100% ad hominems!

Now call me a Nazi and I win at the series of tubes.

Aren`t you two not a little bit ashamed that this is all you have to suport policies that cost millions of lives?

A few well placed shots at the official imperial narrative and you draw the anti-American- card?

You are allmost as much fun as arguing against the wellfare state in Europe, because there I am a neo-liberal quasi American…

Of course I have no problems learning from this site, nor with buying their products.

Why would I?

Of course if I was anti-American, but my wallet seems to sing a different tune…

82

[quote]hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

The Empire the silly continentals resent so much certainly blunted the Imperial ambitions of your forefathers…twice.

Jealousy perhaps?

You have virtually no idea why WWI started, haven`t you?

Or how it was longer than necessary, because of American credit to the UK and France or how the UK were supported by the US?

How this longer than necessary war of attrition led to three revolutions, destroyed nations that were hundreds of years old, led to an insufferable piece and a second WWII?

Don`t they teach you some history before they let you play with heavy equipment or maybe only the official version of it?

Yes now I see. WWI and 2 were caused by the Americans not the Germans. You really are funny.

Yes I’ve studied history, just not the revised versions they teach you apparently.

[/quote]

Tsk, tsk, tsk…

WWI was started by Austria, not the Germans, and immediately became continental because of a shortsighted alliance policy of the 5 major European powers back then.

I was not started because of imperial ambition, even though German imperial ambition as well as the creation of a strong german navy help to build tensions between Germany and the UK.

Now those were two factual errors in your understanding of WWI?s history.

Would you like to look a bit deeper into Woodrow Wilson and his role in WWI before posting any more about this war?

And are we agreed that it is next to impossible to understand WWII without WWI?

83

[quote]orion wrote:
Wow, 100% ad hominems!

Now call me a Nazi and I win at the series of tubes.

Aren`t you two not a little bit ashamed that this is all you have to suport policies that cost millions of lives?

A few well placed shots at the official imperial narrative and you draw the anti-American- card?

You are allmost as much fun as arguing against the wellfare state in Europe, because there I am a neo-liberal quasi American…

Of course I have no problems learning from this site, nor with buying their products.

Why would I?

Of course if I was anti-American, but my wallet seems to sing a different tune… [/quote]

There you go showing your arrogance/ignorance again. You pretend to know what I stand for and which policies I support and do not support, yet in this thread, I have not made any assertions to my political leanings.

I consider myself apolitical. Politics get involved only when actual, real solutions are no longer viable.

As far as Ad hominems you attacked me first. So beso mi asno.

84

[quote]orion wrote:
pat36 wrote:
hedo wrote:
Your a dumbass anti-american bigot who writes some stupid idiotic things. This is probably the most idiotic thing you’ve written and you have set some high standards. Well done.

Just because you are weak and cowardly it doesn’t mean that people who are not will listen to you. Why don’t you help the Iranians build some more bunkers…you guys are good at those right? Maybe they’ll attack you last.

You need to realize. If the idea makes sense to you it’s probably not going to work in the real world. Giving up and accepting things that are wrong is a cowardly way to live your life, as you well know.

It’s actually just a current fad in Europe. Anti-American is in, so they all just follow along like sheep.
You see these fine people actually deserve our pity. They suffer from a debilitating form of stupidity known as arrogance. They will fill the forums with empty facts taken out of the context of history to make America look bad while totally ignoring the fact that over the past 100 years more blood has been spilt in and because of Europe, then anywhere else in the world. And why did it come to world wars? Because the initial strategies were appeasement and peace at any cost.

Let us also not for get that they are ridiculing America on an American website, hosted by Americans, on American servers (Sun servers are still American made BTW). Maybe not all the part in them but more or less), reading articles and taking advise from Americans.

Wow, 100% ad hominems!

Now call me a Nazi and I win at the series of tubes.

Aren`t you two not a little bit ashamed that this is all you have to suport policies that cost millions of lives?

A few well placed shots at the official imperial narrative and you draw the anti-American- card?

You are allmost as much fun as arguing against the wellfare state in Europe, because there I am a neo-liberal quasi American…

Of course I have no problems learning from this site, nor with buying their products.

Why would I?

Of course if I was anti-American, but my wallet seems to sing a different tune… [/quote]

Your argument would make sense if you were chastised simply for what you are rather then what you say but it’s your foolish comments that usually start the argument.

In reality, you are berated for your comments. That you are a boorish and rude Western European simply reinforces the generalizations we already have.

As for support…you do read before you hit submit don’t you? Opinions are not fact.

85

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

The Empire the silly continentals resent so much certainly blunted the Imperial ambitions of your forefathers…twice.

Jealousy perhaps?

You have virtually no idea why WWI started, haven`t you?

Or how it was longer than necessary, because of American credit to the UK and France or how the UK were supported by the US?

How this longer than necessary war of attrition led to three revolutions, destroyed nations that were hundreds of years old, led to an insufferable piece and a second WWII?

Don`t they teach you some history before they let you play with heavy equipment or maybe only the official version of it?

Yes now I see. WWI and 2 were caused by the Americans not the Germans. You really are funny.

Yes I’ve studied history, just not the revised versions they teach you apparently.

Tsk, tsk, tsk…

WWI was started by Austria, not the Germans, and immediately became continental because of a shortsighted alliance policy of the 5 major European powers back then.

I was not started because of imperial ambition, even though German imperial ambition as well as the creation of a strong german navy help to build tensions between Germany and the UK.

Now those were two factual errors in your understanding of WWI?s history.

Would you like to look a bit deeper into Woodrow Wilson and his role in WWI before posting any more about this war?

And are we agreed that it is next to impossible to understand WWII without WWI?
[/quote]

Yes I’m sure the Africans also agreed you had no Imperial ambitions. Why was the development of the vaccine against sleeping sickness such a big thing in Europe if you just had the interests of the Africans at heart.

The thing about sudying history, that is lost on you, is you can’t discard the parts you don’s agree with. I’m sure the Germans were very saddened to see the Americans enter WW1. We were so culturally insensitive not to consider the feelings of our enemies before fighting them weren’t we.

WW2 isn’t really that hard for you to understand is it? Here’s a hint. The Allies didn’t start it, they finished it. Bad day for the master race but I’m sure you’ll get over it.

86

[quote]orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

The Empire the silly continentals resent so much certainly blunted the Imperial ambitions of your forefathers…twice.

Jealousy perhaps?

You have virtually no idea why WWI started, haven`t you?

Or how it was longer than necessary, because of American credit to the UK and France or how the UK were supported by the US?

How this longer than necessary war of attrition led to three revolutions, destroyed nations that were hundreds of years old, led to an insufferable piece and a second WWII?

Don`t they teach you some history before they let you play with heavy equipment or maybe only the official version of it?

[/quote]

Is that what they teach in Austria? That you were victims of America? It is all America’s fault for butting in?

No wonder you have such a bizarre world view!

87

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
hedo wrote:

The Empire the silly continentals resent so much certainly blunted the Imperial ambitions of your forefathers…twice.

Jealousy perhaps?

You have virtually no idea why WWI started, haven`t you?

Or how it was longer than necessary, because of American credit to the UK and France or how the UK were supported by the US?

How this longer than necessary war of attrition led to three revolutions, destroyed nations that were hundreds of years old, led to an insufferable piece and a second WWII?

Don`t they teach you some history before they let you play with heavy equipment or maybe only the official version of it?

Is that what they teach in Austria? That you were victims of America? It is all America’s fault for butting in?

No wonder you have such a bizarre world view!
[/quote]

I would not say that is was Americas “fault” to intervene, if you are stupid enough, as the Austrian emperor back than was, not to seek a confederation of all his people AND forging an alliance with the Germans which were way to ambitious AND then starting a war knowing to have somewhat neglected the Austrian army…

… you`re probably fucked.

That does not change the fact however that the US changed the outcome of WWI and in a way that made a WWII more likely …

Now Hitler was a rapid dog that needed to be disposed off, as was Hussein, but from an US point of view I would ask myself if not creating them is not the cheapest way of dealing with them.

88

The biggest reason not to mess with Iran… that’s already a WHOLE lotta wrong.

89

[quote]pat36 wrote:
hedo wrote:
Your a dumbass anti-american bigot who writes some stupid idiotic things. This is probably the most idiotic thing you’ve written and you have set some high standards. Well done.

Just because you are weak and cowardly it doesn’t mean that people who are not will listen to you. Why don’t you help the Iranians build some more bunkers…you guys are good at those right? Maybe they’ll attack you last.

You need to realize. If the idea makes sense to you it’s probably not going to work in the real world. Giving up and accepting things that are wrong is a cowardly way to live your life, as you well know.

It’s actually just a current fad in Europe. Anti-American is in, so they all just follow along like sheep.
You see these fine people actually deserve our pity. They suffer from a debilitating form of stupidity known as arrogance. They will fill the forums with empty facts taken out of the context of history to make America look bad while totally ignoring the fact that over the past 100 years more blood has been spilt in and because of Europe, then anywhere else in the world. And why did it come to world wars? Because the initial strategies were appeasement and peace at any cost.

Let us also not for get that they are ridiculing America on an American website, hosted by Americans, on American servers (Sun servers are still American made BTW). Maybe not all the part in them but more or less), reading articles and taking advise from Americans.
[/quote]

You are correct. The French hid behind the Maginot Line while Poland was raped. They had agreed to attack Germany the moment Germany invaded Poland. If they had, WW II would most likely have been over then. The Germans had almost no one on the West Wall. That’s just one of many instances.

90

Following the path of predictability…

U.S. delays report on Iranian role in Iraq
WASHINGTON - The Bush administration has postponed plans to offer public details of its charges of Iranian meddling inside Iraq amid internal divisions over the strength of the evidence, U.S. officials said.

Two Iraqi generals suspected of complicity in attack on US GIs
The fake US military convoy that kidnapped and killed 5 soldiers had previously been blamed on Iranian elements…

Originally, the US said the five soldiers had been killed during fighting, but the Associated Press revealed the US statement was a lie.

“It makes you wonder if they are able to pass themselves off as Americans and get into this place in Karbala, could they do further attacks in places like the Green Zone,” Emanuel continued…
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Two_Iraqi_generals_suspected_of_complicity_0201.html

Signed,
Cynically yours

91

Same map - different perspective.

Chirac Strays From Assailing a Nuclear Iran
NYT
February 1, 2007
Mr. Chirac said it would be an act of self-destruction for Iran to use a nuclear weapon against another country.

“Where will it drop it, this bomb? On Israel?” Mr. Chirac asked. “It would not have gone 200 meters into the atmosphere before Tehran would be razed.”…

Exactly.

US support is overwhelming.

Europe resisting U.S. pressure on Iran
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/30/news/sanctions.php

Europeans fear US attack on Iran as nuclear row intensifies
Senior European policy-makers are increasingly worried that the US administration will resort to air strikes against Iran to try to destroy its suspect nuclear programme.

Shell defies US pressure and signs $10bn Iranian gas deal
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0%2C%2C2001515%2C00.html

92

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Same map - different perspective.

Chirac Strays From Assailing a Nuclear Iran
NYT
February 1, 2007
Mr. Chirac said it would be an act of self-destruction for Iran to use a nuclear weapon against another country.

“Where will it drop it, this bomb? On Israel?” Mr. Chirac asked. “It would not have gone 200 meters into the atmosphere before Tehran would be razed.”…

Exactly.

US support is overwhelming.

Europe resisting U.S. pressure on Iran
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/30/news/sanctions.php

Europeans fear US attack on Iran as nuclear row intensifies
Senior European policy-makers are increasingly worried that the US administration will resort to air strikes against Iran to try to destroy its suspect nuclear programme.

Shell defies US pressure and signs $10bn Iranian gas deal
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0%2C%2C2001515%2C00.html
[/quote]

So Chirac is making excuses why it Europe trades with Iran? Seriously what point are you trying to prove?

Are you saying it is a good thing if Iran develops nukes?

93

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
So Chirac is making excuses why it Europe trades with Iran? Seriously what point are you trying to prove?

Are you saying it is a good thing if Iran develops nukes?[/quote]

Please get this straight: the International Community (france) is a joke of epic proportions. The very fact that these passive/aggressive lilies are on the u.n. security council invalidates the whole body.

On the other hand, did anyone really expect france to stand firm on anything except making up new ways to take holidays?

jeffR

94

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
So Chirac is making excuses why it Europe trades with Iran? Seriously what point are you trying to prove?

Are you saying it is a good thing if Iran develops nukes?[/quote]

The point is, whatever action we take towards Iran, we’ll be more ALONE than in Iraq. We’re alienating our allies.

And while your flaming the French, I think you missed a key component to our European relations…

Despite recurring tensions on the Middle East between the US and France, the French are the most hawkish of the Europeans on Iran…

95

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
So Chirac is making excuses why it Europe trades with Iran? Seriously what point are you trying to prove?

Are you saying it is a good thing if Iran develops nukes?

The point is, whatever action we take towards Iran, we’ll be more ALONE than in Iraq. We’re alienating our allies.

And while your flaming the French, I think you missed a key component to our European relations…

Despite recurring tensions on the Middle East between the US and France, the French are the most hawkish of the Europeans on Iran…

jtf,

Hawkish and french are antonyms. No reasonable person expects them to do anything more than talk. You see chirac backpeddling already. They talk hawk, they act dove. When the situation gets hot, they’ll cower.

It’s the old story.

JeffR

96

[quote]JeffR wrote:
jtf,

Hawkish and french are antonyms. No reasonable person expects them to do anything more than talk. You see chirac backpeddling already. They talk hawk, they act dove. When the situation gets hot, they’ll cower.

It’s the old story.

JeffR
[/quote]

I can’t tell if you ACTUALLY believe confronting Iran is somehow a smart idea – or if in reality, your really just anxious to catch a ride on the Jesus train?

97

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
JeffR wrote:
jtf,

Hawkish and french are antonyms. No reasonable person expects them to do anything more than talk. You see chirac backpeddling already. They talk hawk, they act dove. When the situation gets hot, they’ll cower.

It’s the old story.

JeffR

I can’t tell if you ACTUALLY believe confronting Iran is somehow a smart idea – or if in reality, your really just anxious to catch a ride on the Jesus train?[/quote]

jtf,

I have to be frank: You intrigue me. I also have difficulty discerning your motivations. Sometimes I think you just throw things out there to be contrary. Other times I think you are advocating the usual liberal approach.

As for my thoughts, iran scares me. I don’t know the best approach to iran. I know running from it is very dangerous.

Oh, I don’t belong to any Church.

JeffR

98

[quote]JeffR wrote:
jtf,

I have to be frank: You intrigue me. I also have difficulty discerning your motivations. Sometimes I think you just throw things out there to be contrary. Other times I think you are advocating the usual liberal approach.

As for my thoughts, iran scares me. I don’t know the best approach to iran. I know running from it is very dangerous.

Oh, I don’t belong to any Church.

JeffR
[/quote]

My only motive is to know the truth. Iran scares you because you believe that Iran is a threat based on what this administration and most of the media are telling you – but it’s all a lie.

Just like they’ve been drilling into everyone’s head the last several weeks about Iran arming and fueling the insurgency and all this MOUNTAIN of evidence they have to prove it. Imagine my utter shock to learn…

U.S. can’t prove Iran link to Iraq strife
February 3, 2007
WASHINGTON – Bush administration officials acknowledged Friday that they had yet to compile evidence strong enough to back up publicly their claims that Iran is fomenting violence against U.S. troops in Iraq…

I notice the “liberal media” can’t get enough of that story today, I said sarcastically.

The saddest part is it’s not even for our benefit – Israel is dictating our foreign policy. That’s why a Democrat lead congress doesn’t make a bit of difference. Republican or Democrat, they are only listening to ONE voice…

Hillary the Favorite in Race for Jewish Donations
Money from Jewish donors constitutes about half the donations given to national Democratic candidates (an extremely large pot of gelt long coveted by the GOP).
http://www.forward.com/articles/hillary-the-favorite-in-race-for-jewish-donations/

Clinton, Edwards Will Square Off At Aipac Tonight
Two of the leading Democratic candidates for president will compete head-to-head tonight for money and support from the same pro-Israel group.

McCain Lines Up N.Y. Money Men, Raising Pressure on Rudy Giuliani
http://www.forward.com/articles/mccain-lines-up-ny-money-men-raising-pressure-on/

Israeli billionaire Saban biggest donor to US politicians

The U.S Congress Democratic Caucus president would be Israeli military intelligence officer

The reason why I keep harping on the Jewish/Israel angle so much is because that is the KEY to understanding BOTH SIDES of the issue.

One of the greatest quotes relating to this issue was from Winston Churchill in 1920:
“The conflict between good and evil which proceeds unceasingly in the breast of man nowhere reaches such intensity as in the Jewish race. The dual nature of mankind is nowhere more strongly or more terribly exemplified… it would almost seem as if the gospel of Christ and the gospel of Antichrist were destined to originate among the same people; and that this mystic and mysterious race had been chosen for the supreme manifestations, both of the divine and the diabolical.”
http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zionchurch.html

Just like people keep saying Iraq was an unfortunate intelligence failure – it wasn’t an intelligence failure AT ALL, it was an outright LIE. Unfortunately 95% of the American population has NOT a SINGLE CLUE where that LIE really came from…

Israel To U.S.: Don’t Delay Iraq Attack
CBS News
Aug. 16, 2002
JERUSALEM - Israel is urging U.S. officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, an aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Friday.

Israeli intelligence officials have gathered evidence that Iraq is speeding up efforts to produce biological and chemical weapons, said Sharon aide Ranaan Gissin.

“Any postponement of an attack on Iraq at this stage will serve no purpose,” Gissin said. “It will only give him (Saddam) more of an opportunity to accelerate his program of weapons of mass destruction…”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/08/18/world/main519037.shtml

All you have to do is swap the “q” for an “n” and you could recycle that story whole cloth for Iran.

Iran: A War Is Coming
Iran possesses not a single nuclear weapon nor has it ever threatened to build one; the CIA estimates that, even given the political will, Iran is incapable of building a nuclear weapon before 2017, at the earliest.

“The Truth frequently seems unreasonable; the Truth frequently is depressing; the Truth sometimes seems to be evil; but it has this eternal advantage, it is the Truth, and what is built thereon neither brings nor yields to confusion.”
–Henry Ford

99

[quote]jtf wrote:

My only motive is to know the truth. Iran scares you because you believe that Iran is a threat based on what this administration and most of the media are telling you – but it’s all a lie.[/quote]

Wanted to make sure I understand your position: Are you implying that iran is not developing offensive nuclear weaponery? Are you saying they aren’t on a crash course for said weapon? Are you saying they don’t support terrorism on a massive scale (aka number one in the region?)

I want you to think about this, if they are doing ANY of these things, it is a cause for major concern. They, of course are doing all three.

I would rather see your face when iranian nationals are arrested on the battlefield.

You link many sources. I want to let you know that I (like everyone else) have my own biases. In particular, when addressing me, don’t use the new york times, la times, or npr as sources.

Thanks,

JeffR

100

[quote]JeffR wrote:
jtf wrote:

My only motive is to know the truth. Iran scares you because you believe that Iran is a threat based on what this administration and most of the media are telling you – but it’s all a lie.

Wanted to make sure I understand your position: Are you implying that iran is not developing offensive nuclear weaponery? Are you saying they aren’t on a crash course for said weapon? Are you saying they don’t support terrorism on a massive scale (aka number one in the region?)

I want you to think about this, if they are doing ANY of these things, it is a cause for major concern. They, of course are doing all three.

Just like they’ve been drilling into everyone’s head the last several weeks about Iran arming and fueling the insurgency and all this MOUNTAIN of evidence they have to prove it. Imagine my utter shock to learn…

I would rather see your face when iranian nationals are arrested on the battlefield.

You link many sources. I want to let you know that I (like everyone else) have my own biases. In particular, when addressing me, don’t use the new york times, la times, or npr as sources.

Thanks,

JeffR[/quote]

Iran had just cured AIDS!!!