There can not be more than one path to the one and only God. If he says “this is how you get to heaven”, and someone does not allign with what he said, they will not go. Basically I am saying that with there only being one God, if Christianity is true, and someone is folliwing buddhism, that person is not going to heaven. This is because Christianity makes it clear on how to get to heaven. I would imagine most religions have their own way to get to heaven as well. Since only one can be right, if you are not following the correct religion, you are not going to heaven. I would be interested to know how you can justify there being more than one way to heaven. Would the God of Christianity just mind his own business and let the Gods of Islam do their own thing as they pleased? I dont see how someone could believe in more than one God (or more than one group of Gods, depending on your religion).
-Jason
For your info, Muslims believe in the same God that you do. Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. They also believe that they are the children of Abraham, just like the Jews and Christians. Muslims view Christ as a prophet, just like Abraham, but a lesser one. They do now view him as the son of God nor the Messiah. They view Muhammad as the last and greatest prophet. If you read the Q’uran, you’ll see that Abraham is mentioned about as much as Muhammad. Just thought you’d like to know.
Hyok, you are completely wrong in your first statement. The God muslims believe in is completely different from the God I believe in. Just because they have the same name does not make them the same. The characteristics each religion attributes to God are completely different, so really we are talking about two different Gods, and only one religion can be right in this matter. Do you assert that God can be described by two conflicting sets of attributes? It is impossible. Only one set of attributes can be correct. The fundamental difference is that God sent his son Jesus as a payment for the sins of the world, and if one accepts that and puts their faith in Jesus to get them to heaven, they will go. Muslims do not believe that God sent Jesus as a payment for sins, they believe that Jesus was a prophet. Only one of these beliefs can be true, so I have to disagree with your assertion that muslims believe in the same God as I do. The Muslim “God” did not send Jesus as a payment for sins. The Christian God did.
-Jason
Lemme ask you a question then. There
are MANY sects of Christians. Catholics,
Methodists, Baptists, Mormons…all of
them can’t be right by your logic. So
by your logic, if there is only “one way”,
then most of the world is in deep doo doo.
God established a covenant with People
Israel at Sinai. This covenant was not
for other people, just Israel. God is perfect
so there is no reason to think that covenant
would be less valid today than 3,000 years
ago unless you think God makes mistakes?
Perhaps Jesus was not for the Jews. We had our covenant with God already. Perhaps, Jesus was the path for gentiles and idol worshippers. I mean, Christianity has spread the OT and NT to every corner of the Earth, right? And perhaps Islam is for those whom Judaism and Christianity were not for? You don't know what God is thinking and neither do I. And I have no right to question God or his intents. And you have no way of knowing if he had different plans for different nations. Consider this...I live in the Amazon basin and have never met a Christian before so I have no clue who Jesus was. But I am a good man, a pious man, I do good things for all in my village and am generous to a fault. I believe in one god. I die. Do I not get into Heaven? Seems unfair if I don't considering I had no way to know Jesus. My God is merciful, kind, fair as well as all powerful and all knowing. Moslems worship the exact same God as Jews do. They have more prophets than we do (we end at Malachi, the end at Mohamed). They have some different laws. But it is the same God. Christianity is similar but not an exact analogy. If there is only one path to God then very few people will ever get there because even the most observant Christian following the "correct" Christian movement will stray, albeit unintentionally, from the path and therefor, will be denied Heaven. That's a rip off and totally unfair.
See my points?
Brock
The Jewish, Christian, and Muslim God are one and the same. They all have different views on the path to heaven, who the prophets were, and who Jesus was (all believe he was a prophet, just don’t agree on the Son of God part) But He is the same God.
Just wanted to chime in on a few things I’ve seen in this thread. First, the idea of “one way” has given me concern in the past, but I’ve come to the conclusion that religion is a human interpretation of God’s spirituality, and is therefore imperfect. I don’t think any one religion has it all right, so you must seek your own connection with God. Think of going from Seattle to New York. How can you get there? Train, car, airplane, walk, ride a bike. Many modes, but the same destination and end result. How can you say that any are wrong? None of us will know for sure until we meet God face to face. Second, the characteristics of God, and the arguement of the Trinity, are again a human interpretation. I heard a great explanation of the Trinity a while back, and it was a monk’s description related to a geometry lesson. I’ll try to relate it as best I can in this medium. If you lived in a two-dimensional world (on a flat plane), and a three-dimensional hand touched your two-dimensional world with three fingers, what would you see? You’d see three separate lines. It’s not until you get out of your two-dimensional world that you see that it is indeed three fingers of one hand. The idea is that God exists on something like 10 dimensions (I don’t know where they got that number, I assume they are more knowledgeable on this than I), so it would stand to reason that we can’t comprehend the total package of what God is. He is beyond our comprehension. Third, on the issue of inter-faith relationships, I was raised Lutheran, my wife is a life-long Catholic. I now attend a Catholic church. I see the differences as minor (but I have a BIG problem praying to Mary and the saints). We have resolved the issues between us as to how we will raise our children. I have many spiritual counsellors that I rely on, and I will rely on them also to help in raising our children. I think this is the biggest area of contention in inter-faith relationships after the initial realization that the differences are minor. Hope that all made some sense. Comments are welcome.
wow brider, I totally dug your post. I have always been weary of those who think they can comprehend just what God is. So many see him as a man, and therefore imperfect, so they believe they can write Him off as not existing. But God is on an entirely different plane. and the geometry example was a great way of bringing it into perspective. They prolly jst pulled the ten out of their bums like a lot of people do, but I am not sure.
I have always thought that I will never truly comprehend God, for it would be like an amoeba trying to comprehend humans. God created everything that boggles the human mind, and He created it, not just understood it…
Oh well, I am prolly just tripping over my own words like I do on so many occasions, so I will stop here.
Brock you made a lot of good points in your post, but im going to adress only one of them, mainly because it would probably take some research on my part to adress the whole thing, but I can adress one key point right now that will probably make my position more clear.
You assert that going by my logic, considering that there are many different sects of christianity, only one of them can be the way to heaven. This is not true As long as the varying sects allign on the fundamental principle which is basically that faith in Jesus is the only way to heaven. You see, most all christian sects still believe that the only way to heaven is through faith in Jesus. A lot of what separates the sects is the method of worship/format of the church activities. (ie contemporary vs modern worship). Or maybe the sects differ on how they reach out to others, some sects are strongly evangelical while others are not. These differences which amount to different sects of Christianity, are not things that determine if one goes to heaven. I personally dont associate myself with a “sect”, even though I go to a baptist church. I just believe that I am going to heaven because I accepted what Jesus did for me. And i dont believe that just because someone associates with a difderent sect that they are not going to heaven. As long as the fundamental principle is there, it doesnt matter what sect someone is from. They all believe that the same things is going to get them to heaven.
-Jason
I definately agree with Nate Dogg. Religions can be taken too far. My sister was forbidden by the church to marry her husband because he was Catholic and she was not. They said screw the church, got married and have been living happily ever after for 20 years now.
I grew up in a Catholic community where my friends go to church every Sunday but you know what, they don’t even know why. They do it just because they were brought up to go to church. I’ve been looked down upon by so many people just because I don’t believe as they do. Is that hypocritical or what? Aren’t they supposed to accept me as I am? That’s like me telling someone they are going to South Dakota when they die because they don’t believe as I do. I believe in loving your brother, telling the truth, being honest and kind, treating everyone as an equal, being happy, and living life as best I can. What faith is that? Do I need to attend an organized religion to achieve that?
Just because I think organized religion is a crime doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in God.
The problem is, Jason, not everyone agrees
with your assertion regarding the different
movements of Christianity “getting into
Heaven”. Protestants look at the Catholic
Church as apostate and in some cases, un-Jesus
like. Some of the differences are quite
pronounced. Unitarians versus Trinitarians
for example. So, by your logic, a mass
murderer who rapes and kills 1000 babies
and then “finds Jesus” is saved where as
a Jew or a Moslem who devouts his life to
helping others, is a true humanitarian and
altruist, doesn’t go to Heaven? I don’t
think God is that cruel or narrow minded.
We won’t agree on the “one path” thing, so
rather than sit here and argue, let’s
move on to something else. Brock
Yeah Brock you are probably right , we wont agree on the one path thing, but at least we were able to have a good discussion and possibly challenge ourslelves to think a little without resorting to stupid things like degrading eachother just cause we dont agree. And hopefully we each learned at least something.
Anyhow on to something else- Yes a mass murdered who kills 1000 babies or whatever, and then finds Jesus and asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as the only way he is getting to heaven, will go to heaven. You see devout muslims and Jews you describe think they can get to heaven by being good, but the thing is that no one is ever good enough to get into heaven. God will not accept anything less than perfection because he is perfect. You can not tell me that these devout people are perfect. Human nature is constantly in sin. I try so hard not to be but if people will be honest with themselves they will realize that they think impure thoughts all of the time. Someone is mean to you for instance, how do you handle it, not only on the outside, but also what you think about it. The point is that everybody sins, no matter how many good things they do for humanity and how good of a person they are. They think they can get to heaven on their own righteousness but they can not. They are not righteous like God is. So no matter how bad or good someone has been, they still need Jesus.
-Jason
Jason, while I understand your theolgical
perspective and respect it, Judaism is
in direct, diametric, opposition. A gentile
who is good, kind, charitable, altrustic,
etc., will get into Heaven before an evil
or wayard Jew. This is what makes Judaism
different from Islam or Christianity - we
believe all of us are His children and we
can all have a place in the hereafter.
Being forgiven by Jesus would be irrelevent in
Judaism because the only way to get forgiveness
for something is to seek it from those you
wronged. If you were a serial rapist as
a Christian, merely asking Jesus to save you
is going to get you into Heaven, accepting
Jesus as the “one and only way”. In Judaism,
this is not going to work. You must at
least seek forgiveness from those you have
raped, make appropriate reparations and
endure any lawful punishment before you
are “forgiven” before God. How can Jesus
forgive you for doing me some wrong?
Now if we wrong God by violating his
commandments, then we seek God’s forgiveness
too.
Brock
Jason and Brock
I’m a Roman Catholic and I find myself agreeing with Brock lots more than Jason. You hit it earlier Brock when you referred to the pope. Here are a few things from the Catechism:
- “‘At all times and in every race, anyone who fears God and does what is right has been acceptable to him. He has, however, willed to make men holy and save them, not as individuals without any bond or link between them, but rather to make them into a people who might acknowledge him and serve him in holiness. He therefore chose the Israelite race to be his own people and established a covenant with it. He gradually instructed this people… All these things, however, happened as a preparation for and figure of that new and perfect covenant which was to be ratified in Christ . . . the New Covenant in his blood; he called together a race made up of Jews and Gentiles which would be one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit.’[LG 9; Cf. Acts 10:35 ; 1 Cor 11:25 .]”
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330]
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331] 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."[332]
It’s pretty clear then that Jews and Catholics see it the same way (at least as far as I can tell from Brock’s posts). I think it’s best summed up by Christ in the sermon on the mount: Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Just like Brock, I of course think that what I believe is the fullness of truth. But we all need to be VERY humble and let God do the judging. He alone knows what’s in our hearts and if we love Him and are trying to do His will. If we are truly doing our best, it’s all good. If we are ignorant and don’t even work at our faith, just believing what we believe because it’s convenient and lets us do whatever we want, then we are “slaves of the flesh” and are in trouble, whether Catholic, Jew, Bhuddist, whatever…
God Bless
Bucho