Nutrient Timing - John Ivy
[quote]D Public wrote:
PWO - 10-20g of glucose and 40-60g of mod GI carbs(oats) with 50g whey is what I feel is optimal(for myself).
I see workout nutrition as more of recovery thing rather than the key to muscle gain. I think total kcal/macros are far more important in that regard.[/quote]
This. Most people aren’t training with adequate volume to require a massive PWO CHO intake in order to replenish glycogen. For most people, it’s probably under 50 grams.
Even in the presence of catecholamines, CHO consumed after intense resistance training isn’t going to be subject to DNL, since the primary conditions required for DNL to occur are not present. (Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labelled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man - PubMed). I see no reason to be more worried about excess CHO being diverted into adipose tissue PWO any more than excess FA, since carobohydrate storage in fat tissue via DNL requires a lot more than storing excess fatty acids. I could see possibly being concerned with the fact that CHO oxidation “shuts off” fat oxidation, but that’s also addressed in the study I just posted, as the improved nutrient partitioning facilitated by intense exercise allows the body to maintain elevated levels of fat oxidation postexercise, with CHO intake being diverted into glycogen.
Of course, this is all slave to total caloric intake.
It is possible you were using too much carbs. There is a treshold effect. It is a dose dependent thing for every individual. With that being said, I’m sure your protocal works for you.
I prefer carbs pwo, as pre/intra workout carbs disrupt my mental focus and make me feel nauseous. It is just personal preference for me really.
I think peri-workout carbs are best tailored to different goals, whether they’re performance, health or body composition(or all of the above). If someone desires weight gain, and they’re more ectoish, then postWO carbs probably aren’t going to hurt, but if they’re more endomorphic, then they’re probably better off with preWO carbs just to fuel their workout, and letting the other 23 hours of their diet take care of recovery.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Even in the presence of catecholamines, CHO consumed after intense resistance training isn’t going to be subject to DNL, since the primary conditions required for DNL to occur are not present. (Metabolic response to small and large 13C-labelled pasta meals following rest or exercise in man - PubMed). I see no reason to be more worried about excess CHO being diverted into adipose tissue PWO any more than excess FA, since carobohydrate storage in fat tissue via DNL requires a lot more than storing excess fatty acids. I could see possibly being concerned with the fact that CHO oxidation “shuts off” fat oxidation, but that’s also addressed in the study I just posted, as the improved nutrient partitioning facilitated by intense exercise allows the body to maintain elevated levels of fat oxidation postexercise, with CHO intake being diverted into glycogen.
Of course, this is all slave to total caloric intake.
[/quote]
So if that’s the case, then why (with total cals being low), does PWO carbs make me fat?
BBB[/quote]
Define “low”. If you mean “in a significant energy deficit”, then you are either miscalculating, lying, or a reptilian space invader, because thats not how the body works. I can swear eight ways to tuesday that listening to Mozart makes my irises change colors, but that doesnt make it factual.
Perhaps you are mistaking water retention for fat gain, or perhaps you are eating more than you realize.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
You would also get an insulin spike which would protect the muscles from catabolism. In contrast, you won’t get the same protective effect from PWO insulin/carbs.
That’s just two reasons why pre-workout carbs are far superior (IMO) to PWO.
As a final thought… those who train intensely (not saying you don’t) can actually interfere with their insulin sensitivity through catacholamine release, meaning that in some people (like me), PWO carbs actually harm the physique, since the carbs won’t effectively get converted to muscle glycogen, but will be taken up by the liver and (if in excess) stored in adipocytes.
BBB[/quote]
Can you explain why catabolism is an issue UNLESS someone is:
- in a severe caloric deficit
- carb depleted
- performing very high reps or prolonged cardio
(meaning, all three conditions are met)
If my glyco stores are, say, half full and I just have an intense 1 hr lifting session with low to moderate reps–and I am NOT on a low cal diet, more like moderate or even higher cal bulking diet–how would I enter a catabolic state such that it interferes with overall, long term progress? I just don’t buy that argument.
Also, don’t catecholemine levels fall back to normal (such that they won’t impact insulin moderated glycogen storage) within 15-20 minutes PWO, meaning that their elevated levels are really not a concern (assuming you can slam a PWO shake and have it take that same 15-20 mintues before it hits your blood stream) ?
I also don’t buy the “makes me fat” argument 
Pretty sure that’s water weight you’re talking about, and yes, I am aware of your experience in training/nutrition. This isn’t a “call out.”
Stronghold,
Feel free to respond as well to anything I wrote.
Does anyone think the “performance” aspect of pre-workout carbs is more due to increased (temporary) water bloat from having carbs, meaning hydrate+creatine+salt+some carbs could have a similar effect?
To me pre-workout nutrition(and other things) is about priming your body to have the best training session possible, thus reaching a new ‘norm’ of what your body thinks homeostasis is. Sort of like ‘tricking your body’ in order to reach a higher level of performance.
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
To me pre-workout nutrition(and other things) is about priming your body to have the best training session possible, thus reaching a new ‘norm’ of what your body thinks homeostasis is. Sort of like ‘tricking your body’ in order to reach a higher level of performance.[/quote]
Sounds like regurgitated ad copy, Matty
Seriously, I want to know the difference (physiologically) between “utilizing” carbs you just ingested pre-workout versus glycogen stored in your muscles, in terms of impact on energy/performance.
lol I just want to know if Post Carbs are frowned upon nowadays? All I’m after is hypertrophy. Love to be sitting at 210-220 with decent abs!
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
Does anyone think the “performance” aspect of pre-workout carbs is more due to increased (temporary) water bloat from having carbs, meaning hydrate+creatine+salt+some carbs could have a similar effect?[/quote]
Pumps are not dose dependent on Salt, creatine, or even water. They can only do so much, although I do think they are good/synergistic with carbs. Carbs (plus lifting of course) even with limited water and nothing else are capable of producing good pumps.
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
To me pre-workout nutrition(and other things) is about priming your body to have the best training session possible, thus reaching a new ‘norm’ of what your body thinks homeostasis is. Sort of like ‘tricking your body’ in order to reach a higher level of performance.[/quote]
Sounds like regurgitated ad copy, Matty :)[/quote]
You should try it first before you laugh.
Well, IMO, if you wish to use carbs from muscle glycogen only, that will leave you going into your training session in a negative energy balance overall(ie catabolic, unable to synthesize/preserve muscle).
If you choose to do that then you’ll have to have some sort of postworkout nutrition unless you enjoy being catabolic.
If you choose to have preworkout carbs, then your body is going into the workout in a positive energy balance(ie, anabolic, able to synthesize/preserve muscle).
I know Berardi recommends something like a 3-5% or 3-7% glucose(with protein) solution before and/or during intense training sessions(something to think about, this also depends on current body comp and/or goals). By the time you get your postworkout carbs digested you’ve (potentially) missed the optimal window of opportunity for muscle synthesis.
Dave Barr(I believe), also is/was on the side that immediate replenishment of glyocgen is a moot point unless you’re some sort of endurance athlete(think +~5km(?)/marathoner). You have literally all day for your body to replenish muscle glycogen. Nevermind the potential negative effects of spiking your insulin after training, when you just put your body into a favourable hormonal state for building muscle.
For these reasons, I feel that BCAAs can be quite the difference maker for body composition. Preserving your muscle while you train, and also synthesizing muscle afterwards, or something else I’ve been pondering for fat loss is LISS(think walking/rucking) for long periods of time while ingesting BCAAs.
Like BBB, I’ve found that postworkout carbs tend to have a negative effect on my body comp, while having preworkout carbs leads to better workouts which lead to getting stronger which leads to more muscle which leads to better workouts…
I can’t speak for BBB, but I was a chubbier kid growing up until about age 12 or 13. This may or may not have anything to do with this, but as far as body types go, I’d say I lean towards being a mesendomorph(portmanteau of mesomorph and endomorph).
http://www.forumextractor.com/post/1010361.html
For myself, I try to use carbs sparingly.
As always the best way is to find out what works for your body.