A frequent topic is the frequency of T injection.
Below you find a simulation of how T builds up in the system and how high the variability is between injections with different injection frequencies.
In subq steady-state levels are reached after about 45 days.
Variability (peak vs trough) of 100 mg T Cyp (total per week):
weekly injection ~300 ng/dL
3x weekly injection ~80 ng/dL
daily injection ~20 ng/dL
Natural variability throughout the day (diurnal variability) is typically around 100 - 200 ng/dL.
I hope it contributes to make a rational decision on the frequency of T injections with T cyp.
The simulation is based on the publication by Kaminetsky et al., 2015 (link below). It uses a half-life of 8 days, subq (not i.m. with a half life of 4-5 days). Of course it only illustrates an average. Intersubject variabiity can be quite substantial, everybody is different in their response and metabolism of T.
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interesting.
I wonder how much our test levels (when not on TRT) fluctuate daily and weekly?
This is what I was referring to as diurnal variability. Variability throughout the day is 100 - 200 ng/dl.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780323479127000159
just be careful: Y axis is in ng/ml. To convert to ng/dl multiply by 100.
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So why are many doing daily shots? I’d think we’d want some fluctuations in test levels that only e3d or so would bring>?
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I personally think people do daily shots to avoid things that happen with a large peak of testosterone entering the blood stream.
I know with me, the day after a 60mg shot, I was wound up, had an intense internal 0 feeling and couldn’t pee. Day 2 after the shot was better and day 3 I felt much worse. I think for me, the shot size to keep me feeling good all the way to my next dose was too much for me to handle and I didn’t like the way I reacted.
On EOD, I feel good most of the way through. About 4pm yesterday I hit the wall and eat tired. I had a shot last night before bed and now I’m feeling pretty good again. I’ll feel best around 2:30-3:30 pm and pretty good most of the way through. I’d love to feel great every day though.
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Probably due to many reasons. I have to believe that some are just overly sensitive to hormonal fluctuations. I also think there is the power of suggestion which leads some to an OCD approach of “dialing in” and the search to be “stable”.
After coming on here and reading about high frequency dosing I actually skipped a couple of injections because I wanted to feel this crash and instability we read about. I couldn’t really feel a difference until the end of week two, maybe, I wouldn’t say it was bad. By the end of week three, definitely, experiment over. I know, it’s n=1.
We should remember that there are a lot of men on testosterone through their PCPs and urologists that are quite happy with twice monthly, or less, injections. As posted previously by others, they know nothing about E2, AIs, free testosterone or a half-life. Would they do better with more frequent dosing? Probably? But, they aren’t falling apart on day ten or whatever post injection.
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With increased frequency, doesn’t FT go down though?
Less peak I’d assume would cause less FT. Higher peak would equate to a larger FT (and subsequently you’d think e2 as well)
It looks like 3x a week is as good as ED if using 200mg per week.
However, i felt like thor when i was taking a single shot at the beginning of the week! I was dosed so I wouldn’t drop below 1000 TT. I kind if miss that feeling.
You mean because there wouldnt be enough SHBG around to bind to T after a large dose and consequently freeT would be increased? Yes could be. But freeT is also faster cleared from the system.
yes
The lower the shbg, the more unbound Free test and, subsequently free e2 would be floating around. Also yes, cleared from system faster than with a higher shbg.
So many think that with lower shbg you should do smaller more frequent shots. However, jury is still out. My thoughts are that with these smaller shots, you may have a harder time getting that FT up without also triggering too much E2.
Some, though, think E2 is ok in larger amounts.
EVERYTHING in TRT seems subjective.
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@roscoe88 - I think just looking at E2 alone doesn’t paint the whole picture. I came across this video a while back while researching DIM. I’ve linked it to start at 4:02 where it starts talking about the metabolism of estrogens. I just think there is way more to this than the E2 number and how a person feels at that number. It’s about women, but from 4 minutes on it’s about estrogen metabolism.
People who feel good and have a high number probably have estrogen metabolism working well. People who have a high number and don’t feel well probably have other issues with metabolism. They talk about issues with certain genes that could cause issues. Take a gander and let me know your thoughts.
I’m considering getting one of these Dutch tests. I just don’t know if I do it at trough or not.
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I do daily shots because I like it better than once a week, every 3.5 days, and EOD. All of which I tried before doing daily shots. I think we all like to make things simpler in our head so that we can understand them. The truth is some things work even if they don’t make total sense. I would bet there’s a lot going on that we don’t fully know about yet plus with the differences between different people each person is going to have a different experience. I don’t think going straight to daily injections is needed but if you try everything else then what’s the worst that could happen? It’s just another option when other options aren’t working. I was reluctant to do it because it didn’t seem like it would make much difference from what I had read. In the end I’m glad I did it. I went into it expecting it not to work.
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@bcostigan41
I remember @physiolojik spoke very highly about the Dutch Test in one of his threads. He explained how he used it for his clients. Maybe you can search and find how he used it (whether at trough or not)
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@bcostigan41 Good find with that video. Thanks for posting.
I definitely agree that people metabolism estrogens at a differing pace. Probably depends on a variety of things, mostly dealing with the liver.
Also, test clears at a different pace than estrogen from what I understand. There are just so many variables and each of us is unique in that sense.
What’s baffling to me, is that on an 30mg EOD protocol, my E2 is 49. And on an 50mg E3D protocol, it’s only 29. I think what happens is that my body just isn’t efficient at clearing it out, and I may need to cut back my frequency a bit.
I do know that I have better erections quality (with PDE5s of course) with less frequent, larger injections.
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@roscoe88
I’ve bought packages (bundles) on discounted labs because they were cheaper than individually. The packages I bought both had E2 sensitive. The lab took 7 of those little blood bottles worth of blood. When I got the results back both E2 levels were different by 15 points. That’s from the same draw on the same day. Yours could be lab error.
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I wondered the same.
There are a lot of people that claim to feel their best the day before their next shot. I’ve experienced this with 100mg once a week protocol. Strange.
The moral of the story is truly, everyone is different. I’m still doing the 30mg/daily, but it’s been almost a month and I feel nothing. And boners are worse off. I"ll ride it out for a bit longer.
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Dude at the 6th week of starting daily injections I felt like it wasn’t working and by the 8th I felt great. One month isn’t long enough. I know I tell you that same story every week so this is probably the 4th time lol. Give it time if you really want to see if it works. For some 4 weeks is enough but for others like me it takes longer. You won’t know until you know.
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The LC/MS/MS method is known to be inaccurate and inconsistent. Researchers often run the same sample multiple times to insure accuracy. Have to go by how you are feeling over the number.
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Every analytical assay used to test human samples needs to be validated. Parameters are eg reproducibility, precision, linearity, accuracy etc. That’s part of GLP; good laboratory practice.
LC-MS/MS assays typically show an intermediate precision (Same lab but different operators and days) of less then 20%.
Additionally these assays are controlled long term with a constant sample of known concentration. If this sample deviated more then a defined value (determined during validation) the analysis is invalidated and repeated.
Here is an example of a validation with precision <15%
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319499608_High_Sensitivity_Method_Validated_to_Quantify_Estradiol_in_Human_Plasma_by_LC-MSMS
Don’t want to sound like a smart ass, but it might be interesting to have some background info. Hope it helps.
I agree that we might have a tendency to overinterpret lab results, in particular hormones.
