Infinite Shore: How Do You Train?

Bigger Stronger Leaner
41

Short update - training has been going pretty well. Hit some decent numbers and some PRs.

Sumo block pulls (mid shin):
2x280kg / 617lbs beltless;
failed 300kg / 661lbs ridiculously close at lockout - should have some time these days.

Conv. Deficit DL:
1x230kg / 507lbs beltless

Bench:
1x160kg / 353lbs - not a PR but much cleaner than my best of 162.5kg done at 12kg more bw. Found the perfect setup for me.
2x150 / 331lbs

Strict EZ curl (100% RAW rules):
1x60kg / 132lbs - haha, came across this articles by Tim on here and gave it a go - was surprised what I could do given my shitty arms.

Haven’t squatted that much - focus has been on all sorts of pulling variations. BW went up 4kg / 8.8lbs without trying / eating that much - hopefully it included some muscle along the fat.

42

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
Training now*
Mon: Squat day
Oly squat (Horton’s Nemesis**)
Squat (Horton’s Nemesis)
Walking BB lunges 3-5 rounds
(Stiff-leg DL 3 workset + 1 drop set)

**Horton’s Nemesis rep&set scheme: ramp to daily max+some work sets (google it)

Tues: Bench day
Oly squat (Nemesis)
Bench press (Nemesis)
CG leg up bench press (Nemesis)
Low incl. DB press (Nemesis)
(Cable flys 3+1)

Wed: Pull day
Oly squats (light)
Weighted pull-ups (Ramp + 1 drop set)
Rack pulls @knees (Nemesis)
Meadow rows (8 sets)
(3 biceps exercises)

Thu: Squat day
1/4 Front squats (doubles to daily max)
Squat (Nemesis)
Leg press (Nemesis)
(Stiff-leg DL 3+1)

Fri: Bench day
Bench press (Nemesis)
CG leg up bench press or BB floor press or Chest press machine (Nemesis)
Low incl. DB press or Military press (Nemesis)
(Cable flys 3+1)
(3 triceps exercises)

Sat+Sun: off

*I deviate from my template very often, depending on soreness, injuries, instincts, etc. but the basic structure always remains the same.
[/quote]

So, obviously this is an old thread.

I was wondering how this has been working for you, using Nemesis.

Are you doing the Ramp to 1, Ramp to 3, 2x5 at 50% for everything? Or have you made some changes / used other variants?

And, for that matter, are you still improving with it?

43

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I was wondering how this has been working for you, using Nemesis.

Are you doing the Ramp to 1, Ramp to 3, 2x5 at 50% for everything? Or have you made some changes / used other variants?

And, for that matter, are you still improving with it?[/quote]

Changed my template slightly since I wrote that, but again the structure remains the same.

I don’t follow Nemesis to a T anymore, but for the Big 3 + Oly squats I still use the ramp to a daily max + work sets idea. In particular, I ramp to a daily 1RM (first triples, then doubles, then singles)and then try to break some form of previous record. That could be a rep or paused or volume record. When I don’t think I have a record in me that day, I will just do 1-2 ramps after the first one to get sufficient work sets in. I like this approach the most for oly squats and basically do it as the first thing every time I train 5-7x/week. I think this semi-structured training approach has a great many advantages.

It works pretty well for me. Had some of the best training sessions ever lately. I hit some all-time squat, bench, and deadlift PRs.

Let me know if you want to know more.

44

Have to say that I’m impressed with the leg development, especially because I was always deeply skeptical about your previous training programs that had you squatting every day (though I realize Oly lifters do so).

Age? Given your general demeanor, I’m going to guess a deeply cynical 32 though you look more like you’re in your 20s.

45

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:
Have to say that I’m impressed with the leg development, especially because I was always deeply skeptical about your previous training programs that had you squatting every day (though I realize Oly lifters do so).

Age? Given your general demeanor, I’m going to guess a deeply cynical 32 though you look more like you’re in your 20s.[/quote]

haha.

To the horror of my gf my legs have actually grown even more in the last months. In particular, my glutes gotten way bigger. That sumo deadlift 3-4 weeks spec phase apparently worked incredibly well for hypertrophy as well. Also a few weeks ago I have started hitting quads BBing style very hard 1x/week on top of the usual daily squat stuff, teaming up with an ex-BBer. Point is that you can condition your legs to withstand insane amounts of heavy volume and the body will respond with making some big.

46

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:
Have to say that I’m impressed with the leg development, especially because I was always deeply skeptical about your previous training programs that had you squatting every day (though I realize Oly lifters do so).

Age? Given your general demeanor, I’m going to guess a deeply cynical 32 though you look more like you’re in your 20s.[/quote]

haha.

To the horror of my gf my legs have actually grown even more in the last months. In particular, my glutes gotten way bigger. That sumo deadlift 3-4 weeks spec phase apparently worked incredibly well for hypertrophy as well. Also a few weeks ago I have started hitting quads BBing style very hard 1x/week on top of the usual daily squat stuff, teaming up with an ex-BBer. Point is that you can condition your legs to withstand insane amounts of heavy volume and the body will respond with making some big.[/quote]

Well, to be clear leg hypertrophy was only one concern regarding your approach. My other, at least from a bodybuilding perspective, is that squatting daily exacts a very high opportunity cost in terms of the resources it demands being taken from focusing more on other areas. That is, at least in my view (feel free to argue the opposing, as I’d be interested to hear your perspective), the more concerning of the two.

47

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]DoingWork421 wrote:
Have to say that I’m impressed with the leg development, especially because I was always deeply skeptical about your previous training programs that had you squatting every day (though I realize Oly lifters do so).

Age? Given your general demeanor, I’m going to guess a deeply cynical 32 though you look more like you’re in your 20s.[/quote]

haha.

To the horror of my gf my legs have actually grown even more in the last months. In particular, my glutes gotten way bigger. That sumo deadlift 3-4 weeks spec phase apparently worked incredibly well for hypertrophy as well. Also a few weeks ago I have started hitting quads BBing style very hard 1x/week on top of the usual daily squat stuff, teaming up with an ex-BBer. Point is that you can condition your legs to withstand insane amounts of heavy volume and the body will respond with making some big.[/quote]

Well, to be clear leg hypertrophy was only one concern regarding your approach. My other, at least from a bodybuilding perspective, is that squatting daily exacts a very high opportunity cost in terms of the resources it demands being taken from focusing more on other areas. That is, at least in my view (feel free to argue the opposing, as I’d be interested to hear your perspective), the more concerning of the two.[/quote]

Yep, you are right. Managing your training time and energy will be tougher with all that squatting/strength stuff, but I think it IS doable.

The only way I can make the BBing part work is to approach it with very high intensity ala HIT/Beyond failure training but with higher frequency per week. I prefer to use 1 (at most 2) exercise for each muscle group and hit it as hard as possible with all sorts of BBing intensity methods. I do that 2x+/week per muscle group. That allows me to hit the muscle groups very hard but saves me time to get all that strength stuff in.

48

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I was wondering how this has been working for you, using Nemesis.

Are you doing the Ramp to 1, Ramp to 3, 2x5 at 50% for everything? Or have you made some changes / used other variants?

And, for that matter, are you still improving with it?[/quote]

Changed my template slightly since I wrote that, but again the structure remains the same.

I don’t follow Nemesis to a T anymore, but for the Big 3 + Oly squats I still use the ramp to a daily max + work sets idea. In particular, I ramp to a daily 1RM (first triples, then doubles, then singles)and then try to break some form of previous record. That could be a rep or paused or volume record. When I don’t think I have a record in me that day, I will just do 1-2 ramps after the first one to get sufficient work sets in. I like this approach the most for oly squats and basically do it as the first thing every time I train 5-7x/week. I think this semi-structured training approach has a great many advantages.

It works pretty well for me. Had some of the best training sessions ever lately. I hit some all-time squat, bench, and deadlift PRs.

Let me know if you want to know more.[/quote]

That makes a lot of sense.

What are some of the example records you use? Are these in 90%+ or 80-90% or what?

Also, have you found some stuff works better for Bench vs Squat vs DL vs Oly Squat?

Nick Horton mentioned that he was noticing a pattern with the squats, that most progress seemed to be made when load / max was in the 20-40 range. Have you noticed any patterns like that?

49

[quote]LoRez wrote:
What are some of the example records you use? Are these in 90%+ or 80-90% or what?

Also, have you found some stuff works better for Bench vs Squat vs DL vs Oly Squat?

Nick Horton mentioned that he was noticing a pattern with the squats, that most progress seemed to be made when load / max was in the 20-40 range. Have you noticed any patterns like that?[/quote]

(1) rep maxes (1-10RM) and paused singles/doubles for the most part. Some 6x2 or 6x3 volume records and the odd 20RM but those aren’t really a focus. I also keep track of my “everyday” 1RM.

(2) I think the approach works best for exercises where you have consistently “perfect”/“smooth” setup/technique. What I mean by the latter is a bit difficult to describe but the execution of an exercise must feel very “natural”/“smooth” even under heavy loads every time you go to the gym. If you apply the approach to exercises where you don’t have that, you will be crushed. You know you have “it” when going for a daily max is no “big deal” and you can do that in 20min tops.

Apart from that the approach works for squatting and pulling variations where the lower back is not rounded under heavy loads (leads to too much soreness). As a result, I personally don’t use it for conv. DL since my lower back rounds slightly under max loads. Oly squats, squats, bench, and sumo DL work perfectly fine.

(3) Well, the only pattern I have found so far is that there aren’t any patterns except when you take a proper deload. While the trend is consistently upwards, the PRs come rather unexpectedly across the weekdays and weeks. Good thing is that you never really miss out, since you will always be at it.

50

Thanks for that.

51

I see this thread has been revived. I can’t believe I started it in honor of this weakling. :slight_smile:

Bro, seriously, I remember you saying you’re not fond of 5/3/1. What do you think are the drawbacks of it? Do you think Texas Method is better?

52

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
I see this thread has been revived. I can’t believe I started it in honor of this weakling. :slight_smile:

Bro, seriously, I remember you saying you’re not fond of 5/3/1. What do you think are the drawbacks of it? Do you think Texas Method is better? [/quote]

I perfectly agree - I’m weak as shit. Buuuut that will change soon enough - I will pull 705 and bench 405 soon and then I will consider myself okish.

Well, I see 531 and the 5x5 variations as decent all-purpose off-the-shelf strength training program for athletes. However, it is NOT great for BBing nor PLing imo.

Traditional 5-7 day BBing splits employing the common BBing principles is your best bet for hypertrophy (and yes you can still do the big 3 heavy). High frequency strength training customized to work on the lifter’s specific weaknesses is the best way to go for strength.

There is a place for off-the-shelf programs, but they will always fall short in one way or another. Imo the worst offenders are typically programs that focus on specific (assistance) exercises rather than goals. Exercises are always a tool to achieve a purpose. Understand the purpose and you can easily find the best tool (exercise) YOURSELF by experimentation. Simple enough but especially beginners fuck it up.

53

Thanks.

54

Bump.

Don’t know how I missed this thread, but enjoyed reading it. Always enjoy your posts.

55

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
Bump.

Don’t know how I missed this thread, but enjoyed reading it. Always enjoy your posts.[/quote]

What up Flip. Training and eating has been going great for some time now. Training principles have stayed the same as mentioned above. I currently sit at a bw of 108kg/238lbs. Have maintained that weight for over a months now and I’m now ready to slowly cut the blubber.

Strength has progressed nicely, although I feel close to some very big PRs in the Big 3. Some PRs lately:

Oly SQ: 205kg (+5kg); developed some serious knee pain shortly after that - haven’t done much low-bar squatting but hit 220kg today being pretty sore so a new PR is surely coming.

DL: 270kg (+5kg) missed 285kg barely after that; should have 290kg/300kg soon
RDL: 8x220kg, 3x230kg

BP: no big PR yet, but I’m hitting 160kg regularly now and can hit 150kg every day I want; should have 170kg in a matter of days. Did 20x100kg the other day, which was fun since I never rep above 6.

The knee pain has been a bitch, but I successfully rehabbed it by focusing daily on hamstring work via RDLs.

In terms of BBing training, I have focused greatly on upper back (lower traps) lately with heavy RDLs and high pull variations in the Smith machine (prefer it over free weights) - all with scapular retraction throughout the movement. I also hit arms a lot more - never focused on them - they have grown an inch or so.

Let me know if you have any questions. Might put up some pics if I can hit something moderately flattering.

56

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

Traditional 5-7 day BBing splits employing the common BBing principles is your best bet for hypertrophy (and yes you can still do the big 3 heavy). [/quote]

How do you reconcile this with your success with high frequency lifting? I understand that the road to strength gains is not the same as the road to hypertrophy but they often travel in the same direction. And you noted some significant hypertrophy results from your high frequency lifting. Do you think that you would have made more hypertrophy gains if you trained each body part less frequently (ie 1/5-7days)?

57

[quote]Pantherhare wrote:

[quote]infinite_shore wrote:

Traditional 5-7 day BBing splits employing the common BBing principles is your best bet for hypertrophy (and yes you can still do the big 3 heavy). [/quote]

How do you reconcile this with your success with high frequency lifting? I understand that the road to strength gains is not the same as the road to hypertrophy but they often travel in the same direction. And you noted some significant hypertrophy results from your high frequency lifting. Do you think that you would have made more hypertrophy gains if you trained each body part less frequently (ie 1/5-7days)?[/quote]

No, what I meant was that a typical BBing split allows you to hit ALL body parts with sufficiently high volume, while that is not practical with my approach. There is the problem of training economy as I mentioned earlier. In other words, the HFST approach works great for strength and hypertrophy but can only be applied to a few exercise at a time and hence some muscle groups will be left out. Consequently, I would recommend a proper BBing split over my approach if bodybuilding is the goal.

58

Because I don’t want to make Flip cry, I thought to update this little thread. I would rather call people out, but yeah let’s all stay constructive for a minute.

Anyway, training has been going pretty well. Hit a nice 405 bench some weeks ago & will probably hit a 500 Olympic (high bar) squat this week or the next. Both have been difficult lifts for me and I had to work my butt off to improve on them. My training principles have more or less stayed the same, but the details have changed since the last time I posted in here. Body weight is at an all time high at a sexy 265lbs. BW (to think I started at 160 - damn…) increased without really trying to “bulk”. I certainly gained some muscle along the way (upper back,chest/sh, especially GLUTES) while staying at a similar (way too high) level of bf. I really need to cut the blubber soon, though…Permabulker I am, but no Dreambulker.

Can’t be arsed to write more - I would rather answer specific questions about training & such… anyone?

59

Looks like you’ve been training for 15 years or so.

Question 1. What would be the most important piece of advice you would give the 15 years younger version of yourself related to training?

Question 2. Do you work in any conditioning or cardio - I may have missed it in the thread but didn’t see any.

Great thread BTW. Nice job staying in it for the long haul.

60

You’ve got some heavy duty legs man. For me, it’s always been my most challenging muscle group to grow. And now will have to stall progress due to me fracturing my big toe. Nice work over the years. This was an enjoyable read.