Income Redistribution

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
621

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Two things: You’re right, them saying “fuck it” keeps them poor - but keeping them poor is what keeps them saying fuck it. Its a cycle.
[/quote]

See I don’t agree. It is not a cycle. They aren’t saying “fuck it” because they are poor. Plenty of spoilt rich kids also say “fuck it”. Likewise there are millions of poor Asians who are saving like crazy.

It is only a cycle with our current culture that pushes the cycle.

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Also, you talk about people going from slave to a power broker. Here’s my concern: Could everyone do that? I dont mean “each individual”, I mean could everyone, as a whole society, all together, be power brokers?[/quote]

In the context I was using the the term power broker? Yes. Will it take a lot longer for some people? Yes. Is it possible for everyone? Yes (baring people with long standing mental illnesses or very serious physical disabilities).

If everybody was a little more spendthrift and had a decent chunk of savings you would see income inequality drop substantially. This is because when you have large loans and little savings you have no negotiation power. And when, as a society, the poor and lower middle class have no negotiation power then corporations can take advantage of it and we get the social problems we have now.

If you have enough savings in the bank to last you a year, and say 40% of the population also has this in emergency savings lets look at a few common scenarios:

  1. Your boss is a complete asshole and bullying everyone. It is making you feel so bad you start to hate your life. What do you do? You quit. What is more if your boss is like that then many of your co-workers will also quit.

Outcome: Business loses a lot of skilled workers, and will actually have some trouble replacing them. So either the business goes downhill or the boss gets fired (or shifted position etc). A good outcome for society.

Now in our current society what happens: You hate the boss but can’t dare quit because you have $10k in credit card debt and no savings. If you quit they could reposes you home. You would lose respect because you didn’t have a job. So you put up with it and it significantly decreases your quality of life.

  1. Your wife is having a really tough time and needs you (perhaps diagnosed with cancer) but work is taking up a significant amount of your time and energy so you don’t have too much to give your wife. Now because you have savings you go to your boss and say “I need two weeks unpaid leave because my wife needs me”. If he won’t give it to you, you quit.

Outcome: You spend quality time with your wife when she really needs it. You marriage is strengthened and you are a much happier man. You can go get another job in a month as there is no pressing financial worry.

Now in our current society what happens: You hope you have a boss who is kind enough to let you have a few weeks off work. Now I hope you work for a good boss like this, but many people don’t. And if he doesn’t then I would hope you quit in any case for your wife…but some financially cannot and even those that do will be really stressed because of unpaid bills etc.

Outcome: Best case is your boss is a good man and lets you have the time off. But then you are really relying on your boss not to be a dick. It might be a small business and he might think he needs you to work and cannot afford letting you have the time off (remember he also likely has bills to pay). Worst case is you cannot quit because you have no savings and a massive load of debt: In this situation you will be feeling like shit because you cannot help your wife and to be honest it will severely damage your marriage. Your quality of life will drop.

  1. Your work downsizes and you are made redundant. So you start applying for other jobs and at an interview the bloke offers you way below market rates and shitty conditions. What do you say if you have plenty of savings? Piss off (or you take the job and just keep looking. Happy to drop the job as soon as you see something better).

On the other hand without any savings many are likely to accept the position. Except of course you won’t be happy and because people aren’t really any good at compartmentalizing their emotions this will flow over into your personal life. Outcome is a shitty job and a worse off personal life.

I can list these problems all damn day and detail how without savings you get pushed around. The world would be a much better place if everyone had 6 months to 1 years worth of savings. And at least in the US it is possible for every adult to save these funds.[/quote]

Excellent post. How would you suggest getting people to put a higher emphasis on savings?

I think a lot of people take the “They’re stupid and irresponsible” approach to it, which I dont think is actually the case.

622

These days there is little shame associated with not paying your debts and little responsibility forced on those who have not planned for their future; if the government is irresponsible with its spending, allows(subsidizes) corporations being irresponsible, and supports portions of the population for irresponsible behavior: why should we expect anyone to act any differently?

Many expect as a virtue that you would choose to help feed the strangers of the world for a day instead of saving so you can feed yourself, your friends and loved ones for years to come…

623

Wow, this thread is still going strong. It’s funny there are not many socialists who have a high paying job, or are doing well in their own business. Most of them around here (not all) seem to be either kids just out of college or still in college. I guess it’s easy to be for redistributing other people’s money.

Especially when it means that you are so poor that you get some of it for doing nothing. Ha ha, I get a kick out of most of them especially little Ryan. (shakes head) I can’t wait until the real world hits people like this. Oh man he is NOT going to be happy, not at all.

:slight_smile:

624

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Wow, this thread is still going strong. It’s funny there are not many socialists who have a high paying job, or are doing well in their own business. Most of them around here (not all) seem to be either kids just out of college or still in college. I guess it’s easy to be for redistributing other people’s money.
[/quote]

You have hit the nail on the head mate. They live in a bit of a fantasy world.

I always like to ask such people if they would let their mother take 65% of their paycheck for the next 20-30 years. And you know what I hear? Resounding cries of “No way”.

Now who is more likely to know what is best for you and care more about you? Your own mother, who has raised you and spent close time with you for 16+ years, or a random official with whom you have nothing to do with? Your mother.

They don’t want their own money to be controlled by somebody else, even when the person controlling the money is much more likely to be acting in their best interests than the government, but are happy to have other peoples money taken away from them.

625

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Wow, this thread is still going strong. It’s funny there are not many socialists who have a high paying job, or are doing well in their own business. Most of them around here (not all) seem to be either kids just out of college or still in college. I guess it’s easy to be for redistributing other people’s money.
[/quote]

You have hit the nail on the head mate. They live in a bit of a fantasy world.

I always like to ask such people if they would let their mother take 65% of their paycheck for the next 20-30 years. And you know what I hear? Resounding cries of “No way”.

Now who is more likely to know what is best for you and care more about you? Your own mother, who has raised you and spent close time with you for 16+ years, or a random official with whom you have nothing to do with? Your mother.

They don’t want their own money to be controlled by somebody else, even when the person controlling the money is much more likely to be acting in their best interests than the government, but are happy to have other peoples money taken away from them.[/quote]

I dont think I’ll ever be comfortable with the politicians getting rich off my money, the landlord getting rich off my money, the boss getting rich off my money, the insurance companies getting rich off my money, and the stockholders getting rich off my money… and fantasizing that people on government assistance are really livin it up on my dime.

626

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Wow, this thread is still going strong. It’s funny there are not many socialists who have a high paying job, or are doing well in their own business. Most of them around here (not all) seem to be either kids just out of college or still in college. I guess it’s easy to be for redistributing other people’s money.
[/quote]

You have hit the nail on the head mate. They live in a bit of a fantasy world.

I always like to ask such people if they would let their mother take 65% of their paycheck for the next 20-30 years. And you know what I hear? Resounding cries of “No way”.

Now who is more likely to know what is best for you and care more about you? Your own mother, who has raised you and spent close time with you for 16+ years, or a random official with whom you have nothing to do with? Your mother.

They don’t want their own money to be controlled by somebody else, even when the person controlling the money is much more likely to be acting in their best interests than the government, but are happy to have other peoples money taken away from them.[/quote]

I dont think I’ll ever be comfortable with the politicians getting rich off my money, the landlord getting rich off my money, the boss getting rich off my money, the insurance companies getting rich off my money, and the stockholders getting rich off my money… and fantasizing that people on government assistance are really livin it up on my dime.

[/quote]

Hmm, quite a dilemma you have there.

627

[quote]ReignIB wrote:hmm, hard claims.
how about review of the CRA act under Clinton in 1995 ?[/quote]

You mean the one that didn’t apply to the majority of the institutions which made the most bad loans?

628

[quote]ZEB wrote:Hmm, quite a dilemma you have there.
[/quote]

Let me know when you find an actual piece of information that you might be able to twist around to support something you’ve said.

629

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:Hmm, quite a dilemma you have there.
[/quote]

Let me know when you find an actual piece of information that you might be able to twist around to support something you’ve said.[/quote]

I’ve already schooled you in the benefits of capitalism. And I’ve given you a really good example of a country that has succeeded with it, the USA! And to that you gave me an example of your socialist utopia, Cuba. LOL CUBA…Ha ha. Keep in mind if you want to move there I will help pay your flight. Would mommy and daddy approve? Wait, they can send their tuition checks to Havana right? LOL

You just don’t get it, and honestly from the bottom of my heart I find that hilarious.

Thanks man.

630

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:Hmm, quite a dilemma you have there.
[/quote]

Let me know when you find an actual piece of information that you might be able to twist around to support something you’ve said.[/quote]

I’ve already schooled you in the benefits of capitalism. And I’ve given you a really good example of a country that has succeeded with it, the USA! And to that you gave me an example of your socialist utopia, Cuba. LOL CUBA…Ha ha. Keep in mind if you want to move there I will help pay your flight. Would mommy and daddy approve? Wait, they can send their tuition checks to Havana right? LOL

You just don’t get it, and honestly from the bottom of my heart I find that hilarious.

Thanks man.[/quote]

But you DIDN’T. Please quote me where you “schooled me.” I want you to QUOTE where you’ve responded to my factual, documented rebuttals of your claims. You keep dancing around the question.

Here’s some advice: when you’re wrong (as you have been shown to be), change your opinions, not the facts. Be a man.

631

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:Hmm, quite a dilemma you have there.
[/quote]

Let me know when you find an actual piece of information that you might be able to twist around to support something you’ve said.[/quote]

I’ve already schooled you in the benefits of capitalism. And I’ve given you a really good example of a country that has succeeded with it, the USA! And to that you gave me an example of your socialist utopia, Cuba. LOL CUBA…Ha ha. Keep in mind if you want to move there I will help pay your flight. Would mommy and daddy approve? Wait, they can send their tuition checks to Havana right? LOL

You just don’t get it, and honestly from the bottom of my heart I find that hilarious.

Thanks man.[/quote]

But you DIDN’T. Please quote me where you “schooled me.” I want you to QUOTE where you’ve responded to my factual, documented rebuttals of your claims. You keep dancing around the question.

Here’s some advice: when you’re wrong (as you have been shown to be), change your opinions, not the facts. Be a man.
[/quote]

Where? How about on every post and thread where we’ve met. I pointed to the USA as the very pinnacle of capitalism. Your retort; “nuh uh”. Then you had the audacity to point to Cuba (LOL CUBA!) as the epitome of your style of socialism. Come on kid just stop it - You got nothin!

632

I think that the current financial shape that the United States is in doesn’t help your argument ZEB.

633

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I think that the current financial shape that the United States is in doesn’t help your argument ZEB.
[/quote]

No you don’t mean that - You’re speaking out of ignorance. It’s okay I understand.

Why don’t you crack a history book and take a look at the past 234 years of this great nation.

-The most powerful economy in the world for how many years?

-The most powerful military.

-The best health care system, yes Obama will wreck it with national health care, but that might be reversed yet.

-The treatment of its citizens

-Small business opportunities

-Freedom in general

The USA rules in just about every important category.

Why don’t you compare it to Cuba little Ryans socialist utopia. Better yet study up on this great nation. The economy has been in the tank before and it will again. It’s called an economic cycle. Read up on those too while you’re at it.

634

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-The most powerful economy in the world for how many years?[/quote]
Look at your debt, you lead the pack. You spend and borrow the most, that’s for certain.
+$13 trillion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html
Dead last on this list. I believe it compares import(money out) vs export(money in).
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html

Seeing as how the gov’t pays for the military and it isn’t privately funded, wouldn’t that qualify as socialist(everyone pays)?

Not according to the WHO

This is subjective, and could be compared to quality of life, see below.

Doesn’t look like it. Always near the top tho.
New Zealnd #1, US #2
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/fsb_archive/2007/06/01/100049637/index.htm
They say Singapore is #1, US #3.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/10/smallbusiness/best_countries_for_small_biz.smb/
They say Poland.
http://claritaslux.com/blog/country-start-business/
New Zealand #1, US #9 for starting a business.
http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings
Seeing as how you haven’t started a business everywhere, your opinion of ‘being number one in small business opportunities’ is just that, your opinion. I’m glad that you’ve had success in whatever business you partake in.

Seeing as how you haven’t lived everywhere this is simply your opinion.
Quality of life your rank is #7.
http://internationalliving.com/2010/02/quality-of-life-2010/

According to you which categories are these?

Cuba vs USA isn’t a fair comparison. The United States has made the whole world boycott them.

Where would you consider a reliable place to start?

635

Government mandated corporate welfare is not capitalism.

636

Can we even call the US capitalist anymore?

637

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-The most powerful economy in the world for how many years?[/quote]
Look at your debt, you lead the pack. You spend and borrow the most, that’s for certain.
+$13 trillion.

[/quote]

Mate your entire post is weak. Since I don’t have the time to go through it point by point I will just counter your first point.

You are looking at total external debt as a total figure. This is very misleading. The same wiki page allows you to list external debt by per capita and by GDP. On a per capita basis the US is ranked 20th on the list. On a GDP basis (aka a half decent measure of the ability to pay it back) the US is not even within the top 50 nations.

Consider the scenario:

I have a credit card debt of $20,000.
You have a credit card debt of $10,000.

By looking at the total gross debt it looks like you are in a better financial position. I have twice your debt.

However then we need to look at some more facts:
I am a doctor earning $500,000/year.
You are a IT programmer earning $60,000/year.

Now who is in the better financial position?

The US is the doctor. High earning but also high expenses. The US needs to be more thrifty but is not in any significant short term problem because of it. It is a long term problem faced by almost all first world nations.

638

[quote]phaethon wrote:
Mate your entire post is weak. Since I don’t have the time to go through it point by point I will just counter your first point.

You are looking at total external debt as a total figure. This is very misleading. The same wiki page allows you to list external debt by per capita and by GDP. On a per capita basis the US is ranked 20th on the list. On a GDP basis (aka a half decent measure of the ability to pay it back) the US is not even within the top 50 nations.

Consider the scenario:

I have a credit card debt of $20,000.
You have a credit card debt of $10,000.

By looking at the total gross debt it looks like you are in a better financial position. I have twice your debt.

However then we need to look at some more facts:
I am a doctor earning $500,000/year.
You are a IT programmer earning $60,000/year.

Now who is in the better financial position?

The US is the doctor. High earning but also high expenses. The US needs to be more thrifty but is not in any significant short term problem because of it. It is a long term problem faced by almost all first world nations.[/quote]

Thank you for the thorough explanation.
So by doctor, you mean the GDP?
LIke these tables?

This doesn’t sound good. I’m not sure if it’s what you meant, but reading it, I see ‘The US is not within the top 50 nations to be able to pay back their debt’, is that what you meant?

639

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-The most powerful economy in the world for how many years?[/quote]
Look at your debt, you lead the pack. You spend and borrow the most, that’s for certain.
+$13 trillion.

[/quote]

Mate your entire post is weak. Since I don’t have the time to go through it point by point I will just counter your first point.

You are looking at total external debt as a total figure. This is very misleading. The same wiki page allows you to list external debt by per capita and by GDP. On a per capita basis the US is ranked 20th on the list. On a GDP basis (aka a half decent measure of the ability to pay it back) the US is not even within the top 50 nations.

Consider the scenario:

I have a credit card debt of $20,000.
You have a credit card debt of $10,000.

By looking at the total gross debt it looks like you are in a better financial position. I have twice your debt.

However then we need to look at some more facts:
I am a doctor earning $500,000/year.
You are a IT programmer earning $60,000/year.

Now who is in the better financial position?

The US is the doctor. High earning but also high expenses. The US needs to be more thrifty but is not in any significant short term problem because of it. It is a long term problem faced by almost all first world nations.[/quote]

Really?

Now not only counties and cities are broke and run a structural deficit, whole states are too and the federal government is in no position to help them.

All of this with very low interest rates that will and must come up because the alternative is either heavy inflation or hyperinflation.

This will not become a problem in the distant future, states are issuing IOUs right now and are months behind in payment.

640

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
-The most powerful economy in the world for how many years?[/quote]
Look at your debt, you lead the pack. You spend and borrow the most, that’s for certain.
+$13 trillion.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2079rank.html
Dead last on this list. I believe it compares import(money out) vs export(money in).
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html

Seeing as how the gov’t pays for the military and it isn’t privately funded, wouldn’t that qualify as socialist(everyone pays)?

Not according to the WHO

This is subjective, and could be compared to quality of life, see below.

Doesn’t look like it. Always near the top tho.
New Zealnd #1, US #2
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fsb/fsb_archive/2007/06/01/100049637/index.htm
They say Singapore is #1, US #3.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/10/smallbusiness/best_countries_for_small_biz.smb/
They say Poland.
http://claritaslux.com/blog/country-start-business/
New Zealand #1, US #9 for starting a business.
http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings
Seeing as how you haven’t started a business everywhere, your opinion of ‘being number one in small business opportunities’ is just that, your opinion. I’m glad that you’ve had success in whatever business you partake in.

Seeing as how you haven’t lived everywhere this is simply your opinion.
Quality of life your rank is #7.
http://internationalliving.com/2010/02/quality-of-life-2010/

According to you which categories are these?

Cuba vs USA isn’t a fair comparison. The United States has made the whole world boycott them.

Where would you consider a reliable place to start?
[/quote]

Tell me something junior have you ever lived in another country? Based upon your inane answers above I would guess the answer is no.