I'm Ready to Cut and Run

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]vroom wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
What I was trying to point out to Vroom and others who seem to show contempt for the United States…

Steveo, you are such a tool. I have about a zillion posts where I make clear my appreciation of the country, the troops, the people there other than yourself, and so on.

Why don’t we hear Vroom and others praising the U.S. troops?

You’ve got a short memory as well as an inability to think logically. I have, over and over again, but this isn’t really a thread about troop pride. It’s about getting out of Iraq because the government of Iraq is now impeding US operations.

Halfwit.
[/quote]

Fine.

So, Vroom, just for clarity, are you saying that you:

(1) Appreicate the U.S. troops?
(2) Consider the U.S. troops heros?
(3) Appreciate the U.S. troops’ mission and that mission is keeping us (U.S. and Canada) safe?
(4) Appreciate the fact that the U.S. because of who we are provides security for Canada without which Canada would have to spend billions to defend itself?

yes or no would suffice on all points.

Also, why is it that you cannot have a cordial debate without using pejoratives? Does it make you feel smarter? It seem to me that it only hurts your points and makes you look like the things you accuse others of being.

Again, just some free advice.

82

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:

For **** sakes, the real beauty of your military is in the threat that it carries, not the actuality of exercising that power. Ah, never mind, I might as well be talking to a wall.[/quote]

Huh? Don’t you realize that the Taliban, Bin Laden, Sadaam, and others were thinking that very thing – that the United States would never use its power against them? Don’t you realize that power unused is power that is inept and week?

Would you have us return to the days of Jimmy Carter where we had ‘love ins’ with despots like Breshnev, Mao, and others?

Power is only power if not only it use is threatened, but that the threat is real. We can only make that real in the using of that power when it is in the defense of the life and liberty of our people.

History is replete with nations dying for the lack of will to die for their own ideals. History is replete with the blood of the brave and mighty who, coming before us, were willing to pay the ultimate price that we might have the freedom to have discussions like these.

Think about it…!

83

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I was making the point that we won’t be the one’s that’ll ultimately put down the insurgency. It’ll be the Iraqi forces we’ve trained up.

I know you don’t actually see much coverage that doesn’t come from a reliable news source, but have you noticed that the militias are running the government yet?

How likely do you think it is that their government will have half a chance to impose order when their own security forces are riddled with insurgents and the militias can dictate policy?

What the US should be doing is working from the bottom up. I’ve made several threads on the concept, but so far nobody seems to get it. You can’t just drop a set of values on top of a people and have them remodel themselves into it, you have to get the people to believe in and choose a style of society.

However, I suspect the control freaks in Washington at the moment would never imagine a solution that wasn’t achieved through brute force.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, elect republicans all you want, but make sure you pick a leader that has a little better understanding of the subtleties involved, or at least available, in world affairs.

For fuck sakes, the real beauty of your military is in the threat that it carries, not the actuality of exercising that power. Ah, never mind, I might as well be talking to a wall.[/quote]

History will tell this story. Until then, elections are damn near here. Time to go vote!

84

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
vroom wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Ok, then I don’t want to hear any crying after we pull out and they start killing each other. Don’t want to hear; “the children are dieing, we have to do something!”

Be very clear, if we cut and run it will be civil war and many, many, people will die. And it will go on for years.

I imagine somebody has already replied, but that doesn’t sound very different than now does it?

What I think is that the situation is right fucked. You can stay and sit there inside the clusterfuck or you can get out and watch the clusterfuck from the outside.

Regardless, it was still the Bush doctrine that brought it about either way, let’s not try to set up blame for people other than Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, as they were the assclowns that brought about this disaster.

It doesn’t matter how we got there now. The idea is what do we do now? I hear liberals whining about how bad it is, but not one of them has a plan to fix it.
[/quote]

Obviously, untrue.
In fact, it seems there are multiple plans.

85

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
What memo? I vote based on leadership and ideas. If a politician has both he will get my vote no matter what party he belongs to. However, typically liberals do not have any new feasible ideas and tend to run on platforms of disinformation and emotional rhetoric. But the minute a liberal comes up with a good plan to make things better, that is feasible and is not at the expense of one group to benefit another(class warfare), I will vote for him/her.

[/quote]
Hilariously, simply replacing liberal with Republican would make this accurate.

86

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
My comments, once again, have been misconstrued. I honor all brave Canadians who are helping us in Afghanistan.

[/quote]

your comment:

“By the way, what is Canada doing to keep itself safe from terrorism? Do you even realize that if it were not for us, you people up there would be quite vunerable?”

So, no your comments have not been misconstrued.

87

We’ve already lost in Iraq. The big winner is Iran.

You guys who are still rooting for the Bush “plan” should do yourselves a favor… please learn the fundamental differences between the Shi’ites and the Sunnis. You really need to understand the huge gap there (arguably it’s as vast as the rift between Palestinians and Israelis). If you don’t know the differences between Shi’ites and Sunnis, please STFU and read up in the meantime.

Basically the President knocked Humpty Dumpty off the frickin’ wall. All this talk about how we’re going to put the egg back together, is a fucking joke. Hey, how come the Democrats can’t come up with a plan to put the egg back together??? (DUH!!!) Maybe candy-colored unicorns will fly down and unite everybody in Iraq with their magic dust.

Iraqis are a nation divided, please learn about the differences between Sunnis and Shi’ites or STFU. And even if Iraqis weren’t fundamentally divided, America can’t possibly train enough Iraqis to defend themselves against Iran, without literally spending years and years there, at the cost of 6 BILLION in taxpayer dollars EVERY MONTH.

Who actually believes that the US is going to spend 10 years in Iraq, at that cost? We’re already on track to spend over one trillion tax dollars on Iraq, and that’s WITHOUT having a solution on the horizon.

Bush totally screwed the pooch in Iraq, six ways to Sunday. Get a clue: There will be no good solutions in Iraq, only solutions that are less terrible than other solutions. Right now Bush is trying to play out the clock, until the time he leaves office, so he can dump the mess onto some other president. That way, Bush thinks he can avoid being blamed for losing the war. That’s what ‘stay the course’ is… a strategy of postponement.

88

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

It doesn’t matter how we got there now. [/quote]
It doesn’t? Woohaa, just forget about Bush fucking up. It doesn’t matter.

I’ll let you in on a little secret. There’s no fix. You’re screwed. Bush painted himself into a corner. He has no options.

And sure, they are better than Bush. They didn’t fuck up. He did.

But for some that doens’t matter. Like you said.

89

[quote]100meters wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
My comments, once again, have been misconstrued. I honor all brave Canadians who are helping us in Afghanistan.

your comment:

“By the way, what is Canada doing to keep itself safe from terrorism? Do you even realize that if it were not for us, you people up there would be quite vunerable?”

So, no your comments have not been misconstrued.
[/quote]

I think he should appologize to the Canadian troops.

90

Ready to Cut and Run eh? Looks like you’re not the only one.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/110306M.shtml

Bechtel, the giant engineering company, is leaving Iraq. Its mission - to rebuild power, water and sewage plants - wasn’t accomplished: Baghdad received less than six hours a day of electricity last month, and much of Iraq’s population lives with untreated sewage and without clean water. But Bechtel, having received $2.3 billion of taxpayers’ money and having lost the lives of 52 employees, has come to the end of its last government contract.

As Bechtel goes, so goes the whole reconstruction effort. Whatever our leaders may say about their determination to stay the course complete the mission, when it comes to rebuilding Iraq they've already cut and run. The $21 billion allocated for reconstruction over the last three years has been spent, much of it on security rather than its intended purpose, and there's no more money in the pipeline.

The failure of reconstruction in Iraq raises three questions. First, how much did that failure contribute to the overall failure of the war? Second, how was it that America, the great can-do nation, in this case couldn’t and didn’t? Finally, if we’ve given up on rebuilding Iraq, what are our troops dying for?

91

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Fine.

So, Vroom, just for clarity, are you saying that you:

(1) Appreicate the U.S. troops?
(2) Consider the U.S. troops heros?
(3) Appreciate the U.S. troops’ mission and that mission is keeping us (U.S. and Canada) safe?
(4) Appreciate the fact that the U.S. because of who we are provides security for Canada without which Canada would have to spend billions to defend itself?

yes or no would suffice on all points.

Also, why is it that you cannot have a cordial debate without using pejoratives? Does it make you feel smarter? It seem to me that it only hurts your points and makes you look like the things you accuse others of being.

Again, just some free advice.

[/quote]

Steveo, your posts are priceless. I really considered saving them to my hard drive

Why should someone sane consider that US troops are heroes? Any more then canadian, australian, german, polish, hell- even pakistani troops? Are all soldiers automatically heroes? Were the resisting soldiers of Saddam’s regime heroes? After all, what can be more heroic then fighting an enemy you cannot dream to beat on the battlefield? (this means that the american soldier was en reverse…oh let’s just forget that!)
Also, why won’t we generally replace the word “soldier” with “hero” , since they all deserve the name?

As for the world being safer, I assume your bunker has no windows and the TV has only a FOX channel?

And why should Vroom [quote]appreciate the fact that the U.S. because of who we are provides security for Canada without which Canada would have to spend billions to defend itself? [/quote]

Do you honestly think the US spend billions just because they like their neighbours so much and wants him to feel safe?
Funny guy.

By the way, have you served your country?
There seems to be an epidemic going around that a lot of hawks seem to suffer from and which denied them the possibility of serving.
Did you?

92

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
vroom wrote:
doogie wrote:
Understand I still think we were right to go in. I just don’t want our troops being ordered around by the Iraqi Prime Minister to protect his friends.

Good thing the administration stopped using the phrase “stay the course” recently…

By the way, what is Canada doing to keep itself safe from terrorism? Do you even realize that if it were not for us, you people up there would be quite vunerable?

“Cut and run” is for cowards and for those who don’t have the stomach to do what is necessary to restore order and democracy in that part of the world. The terrorists are banking on narrow minded people like you and others to allow them to continue their reign of terror and to export terror all over the world – yes, even to Canada![/quote]

Canada is not nearly the equal of the U.S. in terms of terrorist attacks as they don’t meddle in the affairs of other countries to even the slightest degree in comparison.

So it has nothing to do with us protecting them and has everything to do with them not being nearly as imperialistic.

93

[quote]Brad61 wrote:
Bunch of well thought out stuff…

AND

Maybe candy-colored unicorns will fly down and unite everybody in Iraq with their magic dust.
[/quote]

What color is candy? And where can I get some of this magic dust?

Otherwise, great post!

94

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Huh? Don’t you realize that the Taliban, Bin Laden, Sadaam, and others were thinking that very thing – that the United States would never use its power against them? Don’t you realize that power unused is power that is inept and week? [/quote]

Ah Steveo, you are such a dufus. After the initial playful little foray into Afghanistan, the whole world sat up, took notice, and thought the US was the bees knees.

It’s not the USE of power that stops it from being inept and weak. It’s the willingness to use power IF it is necessary. In the case of Saddam, we now know it probably wasn’t necessary because he wasn’t associated with terrorism and he didn’t have WMD’s.

It could certainly have become necessary in the future, but another part of using the military appropriately is not to get itchy fingers and pull the trigger before you need to.

The US military is indeed an awesome force, but it an extremely expensive tool and it must nut be taken out of the shed too often. It should be kept clean, oiled and ready action at all times…

Power is something that must be used precisely and wisely. It isn’t enough to be a big elephant stomping around, even if that does make your balls swell with patriotic fervor and feel really really good.

Again, that is the difference between Afghanistan and Iraq. Power can be abused just as easily as it can be used…

95

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
So, Vroom, just for clarity, are you saying that you:

(1) Appreicate the U.S. troops?
(2) Consider the U.S. troops heros?
(3) Appreciate the U.S. troops’ mission and that mission is keeping us (U.S. and Canada) safe?
(4) Appreciate the fact that the U.S. because of who we are provides security for Canada without which Canada would have to spend billions to defend itself?

yes or no would suffice on all points.
[/quote]

Asshole, yes or no will not suffice! The world is not composed of very many yes or no situations, though you might like it if it was. Howabout we leave the “yes or no” games to the professional assholes in Washington and allow ourselves the freedom to discuss and think about issues a bit more
deeply?

  1. I appreciate professional soldiers who perform their duties competently from any allied country. I don’t appreciate soldiers who take it upon themselves to create fiasco’s like the Abu Ghraib situation. Should I?

  2. The US troops are soldiers. I’m sure there are many that are acting heroically, but I don’t consider everyone that serves in the military an automatic hero, nor do I expect do most who serve consider themselves heros. Do you think I might be allowed to feel more patriotic fervor for the members of my own military who are currently serving and dying?

  3. Missions, in the western world, are defined by the government… which is to reflect the will of the people. I felt that Afghanistan was a good mission and that Iraq was a misguided one, but that doesn’t change my view of the soldiers themselves.

Also, to be clear, the motivation of the US government is not to keep Canada safe. If, and that’s a big if, US actions keep Canada safe then that is a happy accident. If the US was purposely motivated to keep Canada safe and was acting to do so, then sure, I’d be appreciative of that. However, don’t you dare try to tell me that the US went into Iraq out of concern for the welfare of Canada.

  1. If the US was not a superpower it is conceivable that Canada would perceive more threats to it’s well being and would thus spend more money on military issues. However, again, the fact the US has a large military is entirely in it’s own self-interest, as it should be, and any benefit to us is purely accidental. We don’t owe you fealty or anything you assclown.

On another note, if the US wasn’t exerting its influence so blatantly around the world (and that isn’t criticism, but the reality of the situation), it is possible that the world would not be as “hot” a place as it is these days. Maybe so and maybe not, but it is important to realize that the US and other players are reacting to each other.

In particular, Bush has been playing brinksmanship since he got into office, it appears to be the only tactic he understands. It’s a sure-fire way to ratchet up tensions… and while it certainly stirs up patriotic passions it is probably not the wisest course of action or the most productive course of action with respect to world affairs.

Steveo, I can and do, but you are such a fucking tool that it’s difficult not to call you one.

Oops, my bad.

96

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
So, “Mr. Blame America First,” what did the U.S. do to deserve the U.S.S. Cole to be hit? What the U.S. do to deserve the destruction of the World Trade Center? The Pentagon? Other forms of terror?[/quote]

Are you serious? Do you really have no idea why you’re so hated in that part of the world? Goddamn fucking shit on a pogo stick, Batman! What kind of stupid moron are you? Have you ever read a newspaper? Watched a news broadcast on TV? The radio maybe?

But hey, since we’re here, let me give you a few pointers:

  1. Supported Saddam and sold him WMDs during the eighties; supporting him in his war against Iran because it was convenient for you to do so. You didn’t care a whit about him being a tyrant and oppressing his people then.

  2. You encouraged the Kurds and Shiites to raise up against Saddam, but then pulled out; leaving them without support to be massacred by Saddam.

  3. As for Iran, decades earlier you arranged for the elected prime minister to be ousted and replaced with the Shah. Another brutal dictator who tortured his own citizens. He was there for decades; before fleeing and being replaced with the Ayatollah.

  4. Your sanctions against Iraq caused the deaths of millions of civilians, many of them children. How would you feel if another nation imposed sanctions against the US to protest Bush, and that the result was that your kids died from an infection they got from dirty water?

  5. Establishing military bases in Saudi Arabia, the holiest land of Islam, when tenets of their religion specifically instruct them to raise up against infidels who desecrate their land. A little cultural and religious sensibility would go a long way. Unlike you, some people take their religion seriously.

  6. Invaded Iraq under false pretenses and against the world’s majority opinion. Saddam had no WMDs; the UN inspectors had been saying it for months. Saddam posed no threat. But the lies got repeated enough that a lot of people bought them and you went in, just as the current cabinet had always wanted.

  7. Guantanamo Bay. Abu Ghraib. Showing the world that you’re no different that the dictators they’re used to. The Land of The Free™, but only if you’re a loyal consumer. Human rights? Hah! You eat those for breakfast. A total disconnect between what you say on TV and what those people experience at your hands pisses a lot of them off.

  8. Unconditional support for Israel, no matter what it does. Support for brutal dictatorial regimes such as the ones in Saudi Arabia, Jordan. Topple one dictator, while you install another one and support yet another. Then claim you’re bringing them “freedom and democracy.” And you don’t understand why those people hate you? Do you really think they’re all sheep fucking retards who can’t read?

You’re a good patriotic American and you support your country in everything it does? Fine. At least have the intelligence and decency to understand the consequences of your foreign policies. Pretend that foreigner are actual human beings that have families they love. Yeah, they’re brownish and they speak and dress funny, but try hard. You can do it.

97

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Huh? Don’t you realize that the Taliban, Bin Laden, Sadaam, and others were thinking that very thing – that the United States would never use its power against them? Don’t you realize that power unused is power that is inept and week?[/quote]

How stupid are you? I mean how hard do you work at it? The US does nothing but use and abuse it’s power. Everyday, everywhere. You’ve got to be trolling us; putting on an act. Only a complete idiot would see the US as a meek and humble giant who’s timidity is only exceeded by it’s restraint.

Right. Only the despots you personally choose and install in power are worthy of love-ins.

And to Hell with any other people who happen to be in the way. If they can’t be free because their dictator is supported by the US, that’s not your problem right? If they can’t make decent wages because the US propped rulers take bribes from corporations and prevent any minimum wage law from appearing or unions from forming, that’s their own problem. They hate profit, those people. Savages.

Please. Enlighten us. Provide us a list of those “dead nations” who wouldn’t fight for their ideals?

But God forbid the US have to make the slightest concession anywhere on the globe so that others be free to have similar conversations. Hell, they don’t even speak English; what are they going to do? Grunt on the 'net?

98

[quote]vroom wrote:
Steveo, I can and do, but you are such a fucking tool that it’s difficult not to call you one.[/quote]

At that level, stupidity and ignorance can only be dealt with correctly with the use of 4-letter words.

Steveo’s world view is so distorted and misinformed that there don’t exist words strong enough to describe how wrong it is. That’s why various 4 letter epithets are sprinkled in. To add emphasis.

“Steveo is a tool,” while accurate, is such an understatement that the poster risks not being taken seriously.

“Steveo is such a fucking tool,” is now at least in the ball park. The poster can be taken seriously and can also be commended for his uncommon restraint.

“Steveo is a goddamn fucking shit tool of an asshole fuck,” really expresses what most people feel when reading his deluded tripe. It is a normal reaction for good, decent people reading about unconditional support for evil and wrong policies. Those with a functioning moral sense will immediately relate.

99

Steve = Haggard

'Nuff said.

100

[quote]tme wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
And this rant makes things better, how?

Blaming Bush does not fix the problem. And until you (or any other liberal) can come up with something better than “it’s all Bush’s fault”, to fix the problem, STFU!

It’s called accountability, jackass.

[/quote]

Ok, so telling Bush he has done a poor job by electing more of the other party is fixing the problem how? Oh, that’s right, it’s not about fixing the problem it’s about revenge. Then when you elect politicians that end up being even worse you can do this all over again with the new guy at the next election. Gee buddy, that makes all kinds of sense!

Hint: Maybe you might want to use your brain occasionally and actually vote for someone based on their ideas and what they can do instead of protest voting like a little kid!