HD2, Just not enough volume or frequency. I still put MM’s intensity techniques to good use and always go to failure on the last work set of an exercise. Mountain Dog Training is superior,
I think the training max and %s are supposed to keep you safe in that regard, but some people (I’ve been guilty in this regard) want to use a higher than recommended TM. Honestly the best progress I made with 531 was starting even further back and giving myself a long, long runway before hitting them surpassing previous PRs.
I also think having run quite Brian Alsruhe’s programs it’s preferable for me to run the weeks/days staggered - i.e. don’t do 5s for s/b/d/ohp one week 3s the second but run it so that week 1 is squat 5s, bench 3s, deads 1, ohp 5 etc and just cycle accordingly. Means you’ve not got a week when you’re hitting heavy singles all week long.
Just my 2 (insert lowest form of currency here).
What’s “not worked” for me, is arms, like they just never got any bigger. My calves are bigger than my guns. I’ve done a few different body building routines over the years but honestly haven’t ever gone whole hog on arms, so what doesn’t work for me is neglecting my arms and expecting growth, or the old “chin ups and dips/bench and rows” are all you need for arm development.
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For my westside conjugate program, I am working up to around 90% for triples on both ME upper/lower days. I then do two backoff sets at 85% of my max for that day. So I don’t think it was intensity as much as it was frequency. On 5/3/1 I always understated my max for that reason but it didn’t quite work for me. Everyone is different, lots of people love Jim’s program, just didn’t do it for me.
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I COMPETED for over 15 consecutive years so I wasn’t just “running programs” other than trying 5/3/1 when I came back to powerlifting after 8 years of dedicated Olympic lifting. I’m very aware of the differences between both.
And you are just defending 5/3/1. But I’m alsi not bashing it. Sometimes disclaimers like "this only applies to MY experience " fall on deaf ears because someone assumes the other side is doing their pet program “wrong” or they forget the minor detail of individual experiences.
Have you ever considered a PPLA split, 4 days a week; M, W, F, SA ?
I’ll tell you what doesn’t work for me - suffering for the sake of suffering.
OG 5/3/1 sucked because I’d go to the gym and need to hit x amount of weight for 16 reps on deadlift to beat my previous e1RM. That sucks! I had anxiety over training.
I also don’t like volume for the sake of volume. I tried BBB but it didn’t do anything. Maybe I needed to run it longer. The problem was that I started seeing commonalities with other coaches like CT and PC who were focused on effort and training to failure.
As I get older (40 in a week), I want to spend less time in the gym. I don’t have the energy or mental focus to train for two hours anymore. I’m not afraid of hard work, but I can’t do set after set after set anymore. I’d rather go all out on two sets and move on.
I’ve reached the point in life that I need to enjoy what I’m doing or I’m not going to follow through (being honest with yourself can be a strength). I have better things to do than go to the gym to complete something that’s absolutely miserable for the sake of following through.
Wife. How was your workout?
Me: Awful. Everything sucked and I feel like crap.
That doesn’t sound like much of a hobby, does it?
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It’s been a while since I’ve ran 5/3/1 but I don’t recall having to hit anything beyond the target reps (5, 3 or 1). Sure, you could, and if you did beat your previous rep max with any given amount of weight, even better, but that was a bonus; as long as you hit the target reps on the main lift, you progressed.
did you ever skip the deloads? I did that too often, and while it seemed fine at first, the fatigue would invariably creep up on me.
Nope, that’s probably a good shout, you ran any programs like that you’d recommend?
With you on this (2 years behind you there) - I feel like 45 masters might be a good fit for you, I’m mid way through it and if you’re focused you can keep the sessions down to between 30 and 40 mins. Leaves you sweating breathing heavy though.
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Sounds like my experience, the OG version of 5/3/1 just isn’t sustainable for most people.
100% agree
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It’s pretty much the John Meadows’ base split. I feel like you’ve done a program or two?
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I think this becomes super real when lifting becomes primarily a hobby. When we’re younger, it’s likely a vehicle to some other goal (sports, dates, confidence, sobriety, whatever).
What have you found makes it enjoyable for you now?
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On the subject of “i tried it and it didn’t work for me”: lifting as a primary hobby absolutely didn’t work for me. Especially in a garage gym setting.
I’m much, much happier with a hobby that has a strong social element, and that encourages healthier choices.
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I found it to be the opposite. 5/3/1 always struck me as doing the bare minimum it takes to get stronger, which I kept up for roughly two years in my late 30’s with no issues from the program. I think it is a very good strength training program, but there are certainly more optimal ways to train for something like powerlifting or bodybuilding.
The idea of working up to one top set on the big barbell lifts, pushing it hard and then moving on to assistance still forms the basis of my barbell lifting in my mid 40’s.
It is amazing what you can accomplish with one top set, pushed HARD.
My case of tried it, didn’t work for me was elevating my heels on my squats. I’m barefoot for life.
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Totally fair. I meant it slightly differently, though: lifting as primarily a hobby (less goal-dependent) vs lifting as your primary hobby. I’d say you’re even deeper into lifting as primarily a hobby if it’s not even your primary hobby.
I can’t imagine the nightmare that paragraph must be for anyone that’s not a native English speaker.
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I do feel like one of the biggest issues with 5/3/1 “not working” is about what we’re using to evaluate it “working”.
If your goal is powerlifting, there are better powerlifting programs, as it’s not a powerlifting program at all. Nor is it a bodybuilding program, a strongman program, a crossfit program, etc.
It’s a collection of principles you can use to guide your training, with percentages and a progression scheme built in. Ultimately, it’s what it was originally advertised as: the simplest PROGRAM. It’s not a routine, it’s an actual way to PROGRAM training. Leaders and anchors are accumulation and intensification phases, alternating different 5/3/1 programs allows you to employ phasic training (do the prowler challenge for GPP, BBB/Building the Monolith for accumulation, 5x5 SSL with jokers for intensification, etc), it forces you to do some explosive work with the jumps and throws, and it’s got the assistance work for hypertrophy.
For me, the biggest thing to wrap my head around was to NOT struggle with the main work sets. Unless we’re going for PR sets, these are more the “practice” sets of the program. The supplemental and assistance work is where the hard work happens.
And even then, what is this all doing? It’s a simple way to program training to just generally improve in all qualities over time. I always say 5/3/1 is training to become “more awesome”.
And of course, I say all that, and I’m the worst offender, as I never stay on 5/3/1 long enough. I always find a new shiny penny. And right now, it’s Tactical Barbell.
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Can it lead to lifting more weight in a variety of rep ranges, better work capacity with shorter resting periods to do more work in less time, fat loss, muscle gain, better movement and dozens of internet discussions?
Yes. It can do all of those things, because it is lifting friggin’ weights, which always works when you bust a little ass and keep consistent without wrecking yourself in the process.
I can’t speak to optimizing for anything lifting related because I’ve never done it, but I see some similarities in the discussions about the relevance of BJJ being on the decline in high-level MMA competition.
The fundamentals are just as important as they were when Royce Gracie put them on display in the first UFC’s. They still work just as well. They work so well that an extremely high level of grappling competence now forms a baseline skillset required to even compete at the pro level. Extremely high level guys building on top of well-developed fundamentals with more refined methods shouldn’t shape the training priorities for most people.
I have had several men much stronger than I am tell me that 5/3/1 wasn’t a good program, instead directing me to their coach’s powerlifting program. The same guys also told me I was squatting much too deeply, including some very accomplished powerlifting competitors.
I may not have moved as much weight on the bar or dedicated a Sunday to lifting weights 9 times, but I am also better off for having lifted weights in every measurable aspect you can imagine. It has been nearly entirely beneficial to me, aside from the kind of injuries you can get doing any physical activity. A couple of those guys are now crippled men in middle age as a result of their lifting priorities.
I’ll take that outcome and be stuck pondering how much stronger or more muscular I might have gotten, had I followed a better program.
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I’m running that PPLA now. It is a John Meadows’ base split and is conducive to bodybuilding and powerlifting. On Monday (Push), I concentrate on Chest, front and side delts. Low total work sets (14), but high intensity. Wednesday (Pull), is Lats, traps, rear delts, and if I feel the need to hit biceps, a few high rep sets of cable curls to failure.
Friday (Legs), per JM’s advice, I always start with leg curls, hit quads, a posterior chain movement (barbell hyperextensions), calves, then some ab work. Saturday (Arms), biceps and triceps get hammered with alternating exercises, then a few sets of forearms. I do cardio (LISS) 2-3 times a week. If I do cardio after my workout, it’s 20 minutes. On off days, 30 minutes fasted in the morning. I’ve gotten great results from this type of training. I highly recommend you research JM’s Mountain Dog training on YouTube. Good luck !
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Yea…
Edit: Higher volume as I have gotten older. True HIT practitioners would tell me I do not do hit, but I think volume folks would think, “That is not a whole lot.”
Body for Life
Cross Fit
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