Great points brought up in here…i would emphasize stretching/release the hip flexors. If you are going to foam roll your hip flexors, don’t forget to also roll out your rectus femoris.
[quote]IronBP wrote:
Interesting comments on this thread. I’m thinking I should just give up the squat altogether as well. I, too, have the longest femurs you’ll ever see. I practically have to lay my chest on my thighs when doing a squat if I want to keep my knees from passing my toes. This causes a lot of back soreness in the long run.
[/quote]
That’s not a sign of long femurs its a symptom of poor form caused by muscle imbalances. I had and sometimes still have the same problem.
It’s hard to say what to fix and I’m still not the best to say much but for me it was a sign of some weakness in my lower back and significant weakness in my hamstrings compared to my quads. When you lean forward it allows your back and quads to do more work than your hamstrings.
Try doing wide stance low box squats and really focus on sitting back onto the box and exploding up. The stronger your hamstrings get the less you’ll find yourself leaning forward.
Your back is sore because its taking over for them and good morning…ing the weight up.
^^Mostly wrong…
Edit: Suppose I’ll offer something constructive as well.
Fact: All other things being equal, the longer a persons femurs, the further they’ll have to lean forward in order to keep balance and no matter what, there’s absolutely nothing they can do about it.
Other than that poor mobility/flexibility can probably negatively impact your squat form more than anything else. Defranco’s “Agile 8” has helped my squat form tremendously in a short time and it’s still getting better. I highly suggest buying a foam roller and lacross ball and getting to work.
The best leg workouts I’ve ever had have been from leg presses. I came across this article a few months ago and have been doing the leg press portion of it ever since, once every 6 days. Seen some noticeable size increase. But what’s more, you KNOW you’re going to grow from it before you ever leave the gym. I won’t bore you with details for isolation exercises I use, but for leg press, do as follows:
Warm up on leg press. Start with two plates on each side. Do 8-12 reps
Keep adding two plates to each side and doing another warmup set until you get to your desired weight. Example, I do 2 plates on each side, 4, 6, 8, 10, then start the 2 Heavy Sets at 12 plates on each side.
Blast your music through those headphones. Now do 10 reps with the heaviest weight you’ll be doing today (ex: 9-12 plates). As soon as you’re done, you’re not done. So drop the plates by half (ex: drop from 12 to 6, or from 10 to 5). Now without taking any extra time to catch your breath (we know you’re tired…pussy…), do 6-8 reps going 4 secs negative, 4 sec hold at the bottom (knees bent position), then explode on the positive. No break at the top and do not lock out your knees (BAD! NO!). Repeat for those 6-8 reps. When you can’t do any more, rep out as many as you can. Go fast on these and really burn out to failure. Take 5 min break. Do the same set + superset again. Now go on to hit those calves, deadlifts (I use dumbells now, better on my back), leg extensions, PROTEIN SHAKE!! WOOT! You’re done.
The write of the article below recommends more reps with a spotter. I don’t like doing legs with a buddy. The faces I make after leg pressing (zombie, agonized burn victim, etc) is nothing shy of embarrassing. So I modified the workout to fit.
Great quote from this guy’s article (below): “After I have taken my sorry ass off the machine we limp over to the next exercise.”
Reference:
9/10s of the reason you hate squats is because a) they’re hard, and b) your form is probably off. Theyre a pretty technical exercise. Try doing goblet squats for a while until you get things right.
I would agree under most circumstances. There’s also the common possibility of existing knee problems. This is exactly the reason that I had to move away from squats (knee pain) and find an alternative that would still allow mass and strength gains. Leg press can absolutely do this.
Also, based on this guy’s other stats, he’s not afraid of a little heavy lifting or hard work. It’s not fair to discredit him like that just because your body doesn’t have any issues being in a squatting position.
PS: >:-P
As a powerlifter who is 5"6’ and has 27 inch quads I feel like I might as well chime in… There is no exercise better for big legs than the squat. It is the best exercise and no one should not do it (unless of couse injury…).
It can be done several times a week and heavy weight is key in my opinion. I squat 3-4 times a week with each session in the 70-85% 1RM range for reps of 2-5 and 4-7 sets. Don’t go to failure, just work hard and do lots of sets. I think that this will get big legs in anyone.
[quote]stetsonjoe wrote:
It’s not fair to discredit him like that just because your body doesn’t have any issues being in a squatting position.
[/quote]
The premise you are overlooking is that every single human being SHOULD be able to squat with good form. The bottom of a full squat is one of the most natural body movements. Someone who is unable to get down there without pain, resistance, tailbone rounding, falling forward, etc. has DEVELOPED biomechanical problems.
Not everyone can be bothered to fix the problem. That fine, but it’s not an inherent problem, it’s self inflicted.
Long femurs may mean that that person will never be a world record squatter but that doesnt prevent someone from getting leg growth from squat variations.
Front squatting is a good alternative for people who arent built for back squats. But even front squats wont help much if hips are tight, causing lumbar rounding.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]stetsonjoe wrote:
It’s not fair to discredit him like that just because your body doesn’t have any issues being in a squatting position.
[/quote]
The premise you are overlooking is that every single human being SHOULD be able to squat with good form. The bottom of a full squat is one of the most natural body movements. Someone who is unable to get down there without pain, resistance, tailbone rounding, falling forward, etc. has DEVELOPED biomechanical problems.
Not everyone can be bothered to fix the problem. That fine, but it’s not an inherent problem, it’s self inflicted.
Long femurs may mean that that person will never be a world record squatter but that doesnt prevent someone from getting leg growth from squat variations.
Front squatting is a good alternative for people who arent built for back squats. But even front squats wont help much if hips are tight, causing lumbar rounding. [/quote]
Great post
I am one that is bad at squatting i do blame my height some what but i also understand the reason i have problems getting to parallel or deeper is because i have terrible mobility. SInce i can get leg growth from other things i dont really bother doing more mobility work even though i know i should. I do love squatting though even though i suck at it. I dont know how people cant love squating. doesnt make sense
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
^^Mostly wrong…
Edit: Suppose I’ll offer something constructive as well.
Fact: All other things being equal, the longer a persons femurs, the further they’ll have to lean forward in order to keep balance and no matter what, there’s absolutely nothing they can do about it.
Other than that poor mobility/flexibility can probably negatively impact your squat form more than anything else. Defranco’s “Agile 8” has helped my squat form tremendously in a short time and it’s still getting better. I highly suggest buying a foam roller and lacross ball and getting to work.
[/quote]
You’re obviously more experienced than I am, but I still have to disagree with you. Do you have an article to prove this supposed “Fact” because I have long femurs and it takes work and a bit of humility in progressing slowly but I can still keep my back arched up right and get depth on my squats. I’m not so sure though what you mean by “all else being equal” are you saying all muscles on an individual being equal or two different individuals with equal strength but different bone structure? Please explain and show where the fact comes from.
Marzouk, read this: Squat Like You Mean It
i sometimes think problems arise with squatting because people have an inaccurate conception of what is required…
for the long femured lifter (in particular) there is a trade-off between the following:
a) if one wants the torso to be relatively upright (no forward lean) then the knees need to get out the way so the body can sit fairly much straight down. this will involve either good ankle dorsiflexion (to enable the knees to track well forwards of the toes) or good hip stability so the knees can track further out to the sides. note that knees coming forwards from the toes will not create knee problems but knees caving in from the ankles will.
b) if one wants the shins to be relatively vertical than one will need to sit ones butt back behind ones centre of gravity. if the bar is on ones back then one will need to lean the torso forwards so the bar is over the midfoot (or slightly in front depending on the weight of the bar vs the weight of your butt). note that forwards lean of the torso is not a fault it is a requirement for you to not can on your ass.
one can’t simultaneously keep the shins upright, keep the torso upright, and balance a bar on ones back. one can do it holding a plate out front (heavy enough to balance the weight of your ass that is sent back behind your midfoot) but not with the bar on your back.
note also that the ROM in a below parallel squat is much greater for a long legged lifter than it is for a short legged lifter. the longer legged lifter has MUCH more work to do to move the same weight for that greater ROM. your numbers might well suck compared to short legged lifters. but… um… since this is the bodybuilding forum wouldn’t it be better for you to lighten the load (to however much is required for good form) and do the work??
[quote]I would agree under most circumstances. There’s also the common possibility of existing knee problems. This is exactly the reason that I had to move away from squats (knee pain) and find an alternative that would still allow mass and strength gains. Leg press can absolutely do this.
Also, based on this guy’s other stats, he’s not afraid of a little heavy lifting or hard work. It’s not fair to discredit him like that just because your body doesn’t have any issues being in a squatting position.
PS: >:-P[/quote]
The reason I responded in that manner was because of the tone of his original post. I HATE squatting, HELP ME!
There is a much better attitude to have, and that is- “squatting is overly difficult for me, what can I do to fix my problem?”
[quote]EndersDrift2 wrote:
[quote]kingbeef323 wrote:
^^Mostly wrong…
Edit: Suppose I’ll offer something constructive as well.
Fact: All other things being equal, the longer a persons femurs, the further they’ll have to lean forward in order to keep balance and no matter what, there’s absolutely nothing they can do about it.
Other than that poor mobility/flexibility can probably negatively impact your squat form more than anything else. Defranco’s “Agile 8” has helped my squat form tremendously in a short time and it’s still getting better. I highly suggest buying a foam roller and lacross ball and getting to work.
[/quote]
You’re obviously more experienced than I am, but I still have to disagree with you. Do you have an article to prove this supposed “Fact” because I have long femurs and it takes work and a bit of humility in progressing slowly but I can still keep my back arched up right and get depth on my squats. I’m not so sure though what you mean by “all else being equal” are you saying all muscles on an individual being equal or two different individuals with equal strength but different bone structure? Please explain and show where the fact comes from.[/quote]
Ok I’ll break it down. I don’t need an article to prove it because it can be deduced from basic physics/biomechanics. Firstly I didn’t say that if you have long (relative) femurs you can’t improve your squat. When you squat, the idea is for the bar to move straight up and down throughout the movement, staying over the middle of your feet the whole time.
Now lets suppose we have 2 individuals. These individuals both have the same torso length and lower leg length as well as the exact same strength/mobility/flexibility (this is what was meant by all other things being equal). The only difference between them is the length of their femurs. Lets say hypothetically person 2’s femurs are 2x as long as person 1’s. The bar will be situated on the exact same position on both of their shoulders. In order for the bar to travel straight up and down the person with the longer femurs MUST bend forward more (probably in addition to pushing knees further forward) because when his femurs are parallel to the floor, the bar would be further away from his feet if he tried to maintain the same torso to femur angle as the guy with the shorter femurs, and he’d lose balance and fall backwards due to his center of gravity being thrown off by the resultant downward force of the barbell being too far away from his feet. This cannot be changed no matter how flexible/mobile/muscularly balanced that individual becomes. This is why taller individuals tend to have trouble with squats, as they tend to have higher femur to torso length ratios.
I’ve included a crude drawing that demonstrates what needs to happen with an individual with longer femurs in order to have a proper bar path and maintain balance. Hope that helps you understand better.
I agree with kingbeef.
Fact: All other things being equal, the longer a persons femurs, the further they’ll have to lean forward in order to keep balance and no matter what, there’s absolutely nothing they can do about it.
except that i’d like to point out an alternative…
they can keep their torso upright if they can figure a way of getting their knees out the way. some combination of letting the knees come forwards more and / or shoving the knees out to the sides more.
follows from bio-mechanics, yup.
if one sits back / leans forward then that will train the glutes / hammies more. (one can move more weight this way. this is why powerlifters squat like this)
if one allows the knees to come forward then the quads will get worked more (a requirement of olympic lifting is an upright torso. this is why olympic lifters squat like this).
widening the stance to push the knees out even further works the adductors and outer glutes pretty hard (pretty hard. there is a reason why it is only geared lifters who tend to lift sumo)
if you get knee pain from squatting then that suggests to me that your knees aren’t tracking over your ankles properly (they are caving in). hip instability…
Kingbeef, I think its a difference of what you’re saying and what I’m saying (and I’m probably not saying it very well) along with what Alexus is saying (better than me)
If you take two people with the same frames and have them stand the same way and try to move the same way than you’d be 100% correct but like Alexus said and I sorta meant with what I said is that with minor adjustments to technique you can compensate for this. Like I stand a bit wider than most and have to really focus a lot on driving my knees out if I’m back squatting. If I were to stand narrow stance and back squat you’re absolutely right that I would never make it to parallel or below.
There is one thing that is also important to mention which you may have just not included in your reasoning or sketch but it doesn’t matter how far forward your back goes you still won’t hit parallel if you have long femurs but are standing to narrow during a back squat. In your drawing 2 what would happen is as the back leans forward the ass ends up coming up.
I don’t think we necessarily disagree or that either of us are wrong based on your above explanation.
[quote]EndersDrift2 wrote:
Kingbeef, I think its a difference of what you’re saying and what I’m saying (and I’m probably not saying it very well) along with what Alexus is saying (better than me)
If you take two people with the same frames and have them stand the same way and try to move the same way than you’d be 100% correct but like Alexus said and I sorta meant with what I said is that with minor adjustments to technique you can compensate for this. Like I stand a bit wider than most and have to really focus a lot on driving my knees out if I’m back squatting. If I were to stand narrow stance and back squat you’re absolutely right that I would never make it to parallel or below.
There is one thing that is also important to mention which you may have just not included in your reasoning or sketch but it doesn’t matter how far forward your back goes you still won’t hit parallel if you have long femurs but are standing to narrow during a back squat. In your drawing 2 what would happen is as the back leans forward the ass ends up coming up.
I don’t think we necessarily disagree or that either of us are wrong based on your above explanation.[/quote]
You’re still not getting the point of what I said.
The statement I made is 100% correct in all situations regardless of any compensations with regards to technique. You cannot argue it because it is based on the science of physics/biomechanics.
I will reiterate and expand on my statement to make it more clear to you… All other things being equal, the person with longer femurs is going to have to lean forward more than the person with shorter femurs to achieve parallel depth in a squat with a straight bar path. Of course you can widen your stance to stay more upright if you have longer femurs, but you’re still not ever going to be able to stay as upright as a person with shorter femurs in the SAME STANCE.
My statement does NOT include any argument whatsoever with regards to a person with long femurs not being able to stay reasonably upright with adjustments to technique, which is what you’re arguing. If you change a variable for one then you have to change that same variable on the other. The statement I made is purely in regards to having 1 variable which is femur length and nothing else.
To further clarify, the statement also had nothing to do with being able to reach parallel, the fact of the matter was the differences in body position that will occur at parallel in individuals with different femur lengths.
Why do you think you’re able to stay more upright when you take a wider stance? When you do this, you’re essentially artificially shortening the distance between your knee and your ass in the sagittal plane, which is like having a shorter femur length in a closer stance when viewing the same plane. And when you bring your knees further forward, you’re moving the resultant force of the barbell closer to your feet, which is better for balance.
“That’s not a sign of long femurs its a symptom of poor form caused by muscle imbalances.”
This statement you made earlier with regards to IronBP’s post is wrong and I have explained why. That’s all I was getting at. I hope you understand now 
I see - two people in the same stance yes the person with longer femurs will have trouble. But I guess my point which was poorly worded is that there is a stance that will work for him, he doesn’t have to just say, “hey my femurs are too long to squat” he can take a wider stance, drop the weight until his hamstrings get stronger since they’ll be activated more, and push on. I was wrong in my wording and get what you’re saying now.
kingbeef and alexus:
Great stuff guy and gal, I am struggling with my squat form and your detailed posts are full of great info.
just wanted to say that, carry on.
It looks like you guys have hashed this out. Yes, I’m sure there are things I can do to make squatting more effective for me, but at the same time its good for me to know that I can’t simply do what everyone else does the same way.
FWIW, I don’t just have long femurs. I have really really really ridiculously long femurs. Seriously, people are like, “no, no, no…its your form. Let me show you. Stand like this…now do this…uh…uh…wait, let me see your legs again. HOLY CRAP! You DO have really long femurs!” They make me run really fast, but not great or squatting. ; ^ )
[quote]EndersDrift2 wrote:
I see - two people in the same stance yes the person with longer femurs will have trouble. But I guess my point which was poorly worded is that there is a stance that will work for him, he doesn’t have to just say, “hey my femurs are too long to squat” he can take a wider stance, drop the weight until his hamstrings get stronger since they’ll be activated more, and push on. I was wrong in my wording and get what you’re saying now.[/quote]