Hypothetically (no pun intended)
If it had been like 8 months, since you botched a cycle.
And your balls were dinky, you had low test, and were suffering basically from hypogonadism.
You were in your early 20s, and had a E level of about 22, and test level of 211.
What would you take to restore your libido, natural test, and ball sure while making sure your E didn’t spike.
Do research, we do not spood feed here
Take my advice fwiw. As always, a trustworthy endo that knows his stuff and can monitor you along the way is going to be your best option.
In addition to low test, you have high E (E2). IIRC, “high” is something in the order of 6 ng/dl or less. It would have been helpful if you indicated the ranges, btw.
So assuming that this is standard, post-cycle secondary hypogonadism and that there are no other relevant factors that you’ve omitted, hCG + AI would probably be the way that I’d personally start, if it was me and I was self-administering my treatment. If your estrogen levels weren’t quite so high, I’d suggest a relatively long-term, lowish dose, SERM-based treatment (nolva, clomid). Either way, you’re going to need to get re-tested, and you’ll need to be patient. Things will return to normal, but it’s still going to be a matter of months.
[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
Take my advice fwiw. As always, a trustworthy endo that knows his stuff and can monitor you along the way is going to be your best option.
In addition to low test, you have high E (E2). IIRC, “high” is something in the order of 6 ng/dl or less. It would have been helpful if you indicated the ranges, btw.
So assuming that this is standard, post-cycle secondary hypogonadism and that there are no other relevant factors that you’ve omitted, hCG + AI would probably be the way that I’d personally start, if it was me and I was self-administering my treatment. If your estrogen levels weren’t quite so high, I’d suggest a relatively long-term, lowish dose, SERM-based treatment (nolva, clomid). Either way, you’re going to need to get re-tested, and you’ll need to be patient. Things will return to normal, but it’s still going to be a matter of months.[/quote]
The Endo that I have been to fucking sucks. He knows nothing about Hypogonadism and has never restored it before.
I have waited for 5 months to go to an endo that may or may not tell me the same shit this other one has.
I CANNOT FUCKING LIVE LIKE THIS. I will do any sort of treatment that is tried for the thing, I just need to basically find what I need and I’ll get it. I haven’t fucked a girl all goddamn semester because I’ve been walking around like a shrunk dick 60 year old man. I need to get this fixed fucking now.
I’ve read a bunch of literature on PCT and the like, and I also have more intimate information on my levels. Unfortunately, there is not very much literature that I have found on do it yourself, fix-it hypgonadism. I just need to get this shit solved by any means necessary.
I’m going to solve this no matter what, so I’m not asking to be spoon fed anything, just please point me in the direction of what I need to do or where I can find out. That’ll be that.
I feel bad for you, but just keep some perspective on things. This is a problem that can and will be solved, so getting frustrated with your current condition is only going to increase your stress hormone levels.
You didn’t provide us with a great deal of information regarding bloodwork. Did they test prolactin levels? FSH & LH? Thyroid? How’s your diet? Are you getting enough calories to keep leptin levels elevated? Again, I’d target the estrogen… that alone may be enough to give your test levels a healthy boost.
That said, I’ll send you PM with the name of a well-respected endo. I have no personal experience, but hopefully he can get you back on track if you don’t want to self-experiment.
Here’s one of many clomid studies. It took care of the estrogen levels in addition to improving testosterone values, when run at only 25 mg/day.
J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21.
Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.Shabsigh A, Kang Y,
Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.
Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.
AIMS: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio.
METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed.
RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients.
CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.
[quote]3IdSpetsnaz wrote:
The Endo that I have been to fucking sucks. He knows nothing about Hypogonadism and has never restored it before.
I have waited for 5 months to go to an endo that may or may not tell me the same shit this other one has.
I CANNOT FUCKING LIVE LIKE THIS. I will do any sort of treatment that is tried for the thing, I just need to basically find what I need and I’ll get it. I haven’t fucked a girl all goddamn semester because I’ve been walking around like a shrunk dick 60 year old man. I need to get this fixed fucking now.
I’ve read a bunch of literature on PCT and the like, and I also have more intimate information on my levels. Unfortunately, there is not very much literature that I have found on do it yourself, fix-it hypgonadism. I just need to get this shit solved by any means necessary.
I’m going to solve this no matter what, so I’m not asking to be spoon fed anything, just please point me in the direction of what I need to do or where I can find out. That’ll be that.
[/quote]
Ahhh, feeling and performing like an out of shape 60 year old, and doctors that will not help. Reminds me of the good old days.
It is going to take more data than what you have provided for us to help much. How did you botch your cycle? Could you post your labs with the units and reference ranges?
A good doctor and a lot of patience on your part will be the best solution. The over 35 forum is probably a better place for this discussion, and the people there will know the better doctors.
Clomid has too many side and as the first SERM a lot of research was done and you find things like this. Skip the clomid and use Nolvadex.
Suggest hCG if you can get it to restore the testes. Then when they are ready, do a PCT to transition. Do not use high doses of hCG. 250iu EOD should work well. While using hCG, take 0.5mg adex per week in EOD divided dosing. Stay on that past the PCT phase. When you get off of the hCG, taper off of that.
You might be able to use Nolvadex instead of hCG. Or hCG, tapering into Nolvadex, then taper out of Nolvadex.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Clomid has too many side and as the first SERM a lot of research was done and you find things like this. Skip the clomid and use Nolvadex.
Suggest hCG if you can get it to restore the testes. Then when they are ready, do a PCT to transition. Do not use high doses of hCG. 250iu EOD should work well. While using hCG, take 0.5mg adex per week in EOD divided dosing. Stay on that past the PCT phase. When you get off of the hCG, taper off of that.
You might be able to use Nolvadex instead of hCG. Or hCG, tapering into Nolvadex, then taper out of Nolvadex.[/quote]
KS man how long would you use HCG for in a case like this?
If it has been 8 months, it could take a while for the testes to recover bulk and function. The biggest variable may be individual variation. We know from TRT that some guys will have testicular shrinkage fast and serious while others report that they are not aware of significant changes. The scrotum will respond quite fast I expect. If one has 10,000iu of hCG, that will last 80 days at 250iu EOD. That might be enough.
The idea of avoiding large hCG doses is to prevent LH receptor downregulation which would then block transition to functioning with ones own LH.
[quote]KSman wrote:
If it has been 8 months, it could take a while for the testes to recover bulk and function. The biggest variable may be individual variation. We know from TRT that some guys will have testicular shrinkage fast and serious while others report that they are not aware of significant changes. The scrotum will respond quite fast I expect. If one has 10,000iu of hCG, that will last 80 days at 250iu EOD. That might be enough.
The idea of avoiding large hCG doses is to prevent LH receptor downregulation which would then block transition to functioning with ones own LH.[/quote]
Thanks