[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.[/quote]
If you are going back to Columbus then it was of course to set up trade with india and got in the way, so we traded with the indians. I assume we were talking about the first peoples to populate the continent. You know, the whole Mayflower thing. I am not really talk about ‘found’ but founded, those who populated the continent.[/quote]
The Puritans were not the first people to populate the Americas and Columbus was not the first to discover the Americas. The point is that you knew exactly what he meant but were being deliberately obtuse just as I am.
[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.[/quote]
If you are going back to Columbus then it was of course to set up trade with india and got in the way, so we traded with the indians. I assume we were talking about the first peoples to populate the continent. You know, the whole Mayflower thing. I am not really talk about ‘found’ but founded, those who populated the continent.[/quote]
I was speaking about the formation of the United States throughout the discussion, not colonies in the Americas. Miscommunication I suppose. Honestly, I am interested to hear how someone who seems like such a big fan of Hume’s work is a seemingly devout Catholic. No offense intended. Just want to hear your perspective on this.[/quote]
The bigger question is why wouldn’t I be a fan of Hume? His work on causal relationships was revolutionary. I don’t have to be an agnostic/ atheist to like the work of one. I don’t have to be a democrat to enjoy rock music. He’s not the only philosopher I like, but he is one of my favorites. I am a big fan of Leibnez as well. He was just crazy enough to be right and we are largely just finding out now.[/quote].
Its just that some of Christian friends aren’t a fan of his radical skepticism. I like Leibnez. Baruch Spinoza is another great rationalist. I find Spinoza’s God to be a very interesting concept. Akin to Pandeism, a blend of pantheism and deism.
…Also, there is no arguement that weak minded people believe or need to believe in God. Some of the greatest minds the world has ever known believed in God.
[/quote]
I would argue that you can’t have a great mind without that belief in Him.
[/quote]
That could be argued one way or the other (though I’m inclined to agree to a point), but the faith greatly increases one’s ability to reason.
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
[/quote]
Tom was a great guy. Incredibly gifted. Unarguably one of the greatest of the Founding Fathers. However, while his deism during his life certainly seems to have served him well…he has now converted. He too has now met “De.”
[/quote]
“De?” Are you referring to the Latin “Deus?” Many Deists and related philosophies call God by that name. Do you believe that God would have received Jefferson negatively Push? I’d like to think that He could see past his beliefs to his work on behalf of his fellow man.[/quote]
So, do Catholics.
Narrow is the road called Salvation, Broad is the road called Perdition. Whether he received God’s Mercy or not, we can only know upon receiving the beatific vision.
[quote]Legionary wrote:
But is not faith a belief? Beliefs, by definition, aren’t chosen. I can make my tongue say I’m a Christian, but can I will myself to truly believe? No. I either believe or I don’t. Its an intrinsically flawed paradigm because someone’s actions on this earth aren’t taken into account.
[/quote]
No, whether one has faith or not is based on two things, God giving you the gift of Faith and your cooperation with that Grace. So, saying you are not personally responsible for not believing is rather ludicrous.
[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.[/quote]
If you are going back to Columbus then it was of course to set up trade with india and got in the way, so we traded with the indians. I assume we were talking about the first peoples to populate the continent. You know, the whole Mayflower thing. I am not really talk about ‘found’ but founded, those who populated the continent.[/quote]
The Puritans were not the first people to populate the Americas and Columbus was not the first to discover the Americas. The point is that you knew exactly what he meant but were being deliberately obtuse just as I am.[/quote]
Oh brother, we going back to Leaf Ericsson? Or are going back to the natives who crossed the ice bridge between Siberia and Alaska? Sorry I thought we were talking about the things that are relevant to the founding of America as we had come to know it which is centered around the founding of Jamestown and Plymouth.
[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.[/quote]
If you are going back to Columbus then it was of course to set up trade with india and got in the way, so we traded with the indians. I assume we were talking about the first peoples to populate the continent. You know, the whole Mayflower thing. I am not really talk about ‘found’ but founded, those who populated the continent.[/quote]
I was speaking about the formation of the United States throughout the discussion, not colonies in the Americas. Miscommunication I suppose. Honestly, I am interested to hear how someone who seems like such a big fan of Hume’s work is a seemingly devout Catholic. No offense intended. Just want to hear your perspective on this.[/quote]
The bigger question is why wouldn’t I be a fan of Hume? His work on causal relationships was revolutionary. I don’t have to be an agnostic/ atheist to like the work of one. I don’t have to be a democrat to enjoy rock music. He’s not the only philosopher I like, but he is one of my favorites. I am a big fan of Leibnez as well. He was just crazy enough to be right and we are largely just finding out now.[/quote].
Its just that some of Christian friends aren’t a fan of his radical skepticism. I like Leibnez. Baruch Spinoza is another great rationalist. I find Spinoza’s God to be a very interesting concept. Akin to Pandeism, a blend of pantheism and deism. [/quote]
Skepticism is how you gain wisdom. The key to this though, isn’t the balls to ask questions, it’s being able to accept the answers. That shows true mettle. Even Hume was guilty of not being able to accept the answers when logic drew him a certain way, but it was his stubborn determination to prove he was right that led to his insight. Ironically he did more damage to the sciences then he did to philosophical cosmology which was his ultimate goal in his works on causal relationships. He managed to show that you cannot prove direct causal relationships, they are only inferred based on correlation. Which then led him to think something else must be involved in the process.
[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.[/quote]
If you are going back to Columbus then it was of course to set up trade with india and got in the way, so we traded with the indians. I assume we were talking about the first peoples to populate the continent. You know, the whole Mayflower thing. I am not really talk about ‘found’ but founded, those who populated the continent.[/quote]
The Puritans were not the first people to populate the Americas and Columbus was not the first to discover the Americas. The point is that you knew exactly what he meant but were being deliberately obtuse just as I am.[/quote]
Oh brother, we going back to Leaf Ericsson? Or are going back to the natives who crossed the ice bridge between Siberia and Alaska? Sorry I thought we were talking about the things that are relevant to the founding of America as we had come to know it which is centered around the founding of Jamestown and Plymouth.[/quote]
It was fairly obvious that he was referring to the founding of a country and not the settlement of the Puritans. My point being that I believe you knew this and were redirecting the conversation intentionally.
[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.[/quote]
If you are going back to Columbus then it was of course to set up trade with india and got in the way, so we traded with the indians. I assume we were talking about the first peoples to populate the continent. You know, the whole Mayflower thing. I am not really talk about ‘found’ but founded, those who populated the continent.[/quote]
The Puritans were not the first people to populate the Americas and Columbus was not the first to discover the Americas. The point is that you knew exactly what he meant but were being deliberately obtuse just as I am.[/quote]
Oh brother, we going back to Leaf Ericsson? Or are going back to the natives who crossed the ice bridge between Siberia and Alaska? Sorry I thought we were talking about the things that are relevant to the founding of America as we had come to know it which is centered around the founding of Jamestown and Plymouth.[/quote]
It was fairly obvious that he was referring to the founding of a country and not the settlement of the Puritans. My point being that I believe you knew this and were redirecting the conversation intentionally.
[/quote]
Soooo… For the people here that do not beieve in God, why is it that most people throughout mankinds history have looked for God, or to God in building up there society. And why is it you believe that God’s lesson’s in being good people still hold true today?
[quote]mbdix wrote:
Soooo… For the people here that do not beieve in God, why is it that most people throughout mankinds history have looked for God, or to God in building up there society. And why is it you believe that God’s lesson’s in being good people still hold true today?[/quote]
Is your post what you wanted to say? Or is the question the reverse of what you intended?
And in your first sentence do you mean a theistic god or any of the multiple other conceptions that have been around?
I meant man searching for God throughout history in any ‘theism’ form. Besides atheism. Why do people that don’t believe in God, think societies throughout history have used God?
[quote]mbdix wrote:
I meant man searching for God throughout history in any ‘theism’ form. Besides atheism. Why do people that don’t believe in God, think societies throughout history have used God? [/quote]
Your question is really broad. Obviously early on gods were used to explain natural things like say lightning that people didn’t understand. As the understanding of the natural world got better the concepts of god had to become more abstract.
Mostly I was meaning if you meant an Islamic/Christian/Jewish idea of god since there are many other conceptions that came about in history and prehistory.
I’d say at its heart its largely fear and not understanding the world around them that caused a lot of belief historically. Some societies in my opinion have used religion to keep people ok with the status quo in the sense that they are willing to wait for some greater reward in the afterlife instead of working to make this life better.
I don’t think societies are intrinsically linked with religion. Atheism in at least the sense of non theism is the fastest growing segment of the American population and we are currently one of the if not the most religious western nation. I think Islam is the second fastest growing. I believe if you split by sects…bundling every sect together as Christian is a relatively recent, say 50 year old thing…that only Catholics will be a larger group in America than Moslems and nontheists by 2030 if the current projections hold.
[quote]mbdix wrote:
I meant man searching for God throughout history in any ‘theism’ form. Besides atheism. Why do people that don’t believe in God, think societies throughout history have used God? [/quote]
Your question is really broad. Obviously early on gods were used to explain natural things like say lightning that people didn’t understand. As the understanding of the natural world got better the concepts of god had to become more abstract.
Mostly I was meaning if you meant an Islamic/Christian/Jewish idea of god since there are many other conceptions that came about in history and prehistory.
I’d say at its heart its largely fear and not understanding the world around them that caused a lot of belief historically. Some societies in my opinion have used religion to keep people ok with the status quo in the sense that they are willing to wait for some greater reward in the afterlife instead of working to make this life better.
I don’t think societies are intrinsically linked with religion. Atheism in at least the sense of non theism is the fastest growing segment of the American population and we are currently one of the if not the most religious western nation. I think Islam is the second fastest growing. I believe if you split by sects…bundling every sect together as Christian is a relatively recent, say 50 year old thing…that only Catholics will be a larger group in America than Moslems and nontheists by 2030 if the current projections hold.
[/quote]
I admit my question is broad. I am just trying to start diologue with someone who doesn’t believe in God.
Right now in this diologue even native americans having a belief in a higher power is related to the point I am trying to make.
I argue that the ‘fear’ and not knowing the world around us, is a reason to not believe in evolution. If we have evolved from nothing what would make us start looking for answers to those questions? I would think it wouldn’t even come up if we have evolved from apes or reptiles. Wouldn’t we just be?
To control. Ok. But, societies or people across the globe in ancient times had a belief in a higher power without ever meeting or knowing of the other societies or peoples existence. Those societies fell, yet the belief or use of God or higher powers continued on.
I disagree with your first sentence. I don’t disagree with the stats you are stating or projections. But, I don’t think that is necessarily a good thing.
