[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Ler012 wrote:<<< While it is true the foundation of the United States is rooted in freedom from religious persecution, it is completely irresponsible (even looking at the issue as purely historical) to say that this country was not founded in Christian ideals. [/quote]Quite so. I have a wall I throw up every so often. Nobody cares.
[/quote]
I dont post often on Tnation but I am trying to keep up more lately. Always enjoy reading your views on these topics.
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
Are you seriously calling into question the influence that the Age of Enlightenment had on the political philosophies of the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers? That is so obvious that it doesn’t need to explicitly stated anywhere. Ever read Two Treatises of Government? NO ONE had a greater influence on American Liberty than John Locke.
[/quote]
And Locke was deeply religious.[/quote]
Yes, and there is nothing I take issue with that. He also held sacred the separation of church and state, as do I. Religious belief is not the issue. Keeping the Church out of the affairs of the State and the State out of the affairs of the Church is however. For example, I was aghast that a friend in H.S who was our Valedictorian was told by a court that she couldn’t mention God or scripture in her graduation speech. That ruling was overturned by a higher court thankfully.[/quote]
Not this again! Read what I said here about Locke and separation of church and state:
For one thing, Locke didn’t believe atheists should be tolerated. I really don’t want to keep going around in circles with this. I spent significant time yesterday explaining separation of church and state.[/quote]
I suppose its good that I’m not an atheist then. Have you read his Letters Concerning Toleration?
“Three arguments are central: (1) Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints; (2) Even if they could, enforcing a single “true religion” would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence; (3) Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity.”[/quote]
Yes. But that’s far removed from the modern concept of separation of church and state. He believed in religious toleration and was against theocracy.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
[/quote]
Tom was a great guy. Incredibly gifted. Unarguably one of the greatest of the Founding Fathers. However, while his deism during his life certainly seems to have served him well…he has now converted. He too has now met “De.”
[/quote]
“De?” Are you referring to the Latin “Deus?” Many Deists and related philosophies call God by that name. Do you believe that God would have received Jefferson negatively Push? I’d like to think that He could see past his beliefs to his work on behalf of his fellow man.[/quote]
God’s not impressed with man’s works apart from faith. He says so.[/quote]
But is not faith a belief? Beliefs, by definition, aren’t chosen. I can make my tongue say I’m a Christian, but can I will myself to truly believe? No. I either believe or I don’t. Its an intrinsically flawed paradigm because someone’s actions on this earth aren’t taken into account.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
Are you seriously calling into question the influence that the Age of Enlightenment had on the political philosophies of the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers? That is so obvious that it doesn’t need to explicitly stated anywhere. Ever read Two Treatises of Government? NO ONE had a greater influence on American Liberty than John Locke.
[/quote]
And Locke was deeply religious.[/quote]
Yes, and there is nothing I take issue with that. He also held sacred the separation of church and state, as do I. Religious belief is not the issue. Keeping the Church out of the affairs of the State and the State out of the affairs of the Church is however. For example, I was aghast that a friend in H.S who was our Valedictorian was told by a court that she couldn’t mention God or scripture in her graduation speech. That ruling was overturned by a higher court thankfully.[/quote]
Not this again! Read what I said here about Locke and separation of church and state:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/pat_robertson_legalize_pot?pageNo=10
For one thing, Locke didn’t believe atheists should be tolerated. I really don’t want to keep going around in circles with this. I spent significant time yesterday explaining separation of church and state.[/quote]
I suppose its good that I’m not an atheist then. Have you read his Letters Concerning Toleration?
“Three arguments are central: (1) Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints; (2) Even if they could, enforcing a single “true religion” would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence; (3) Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity.”[/quote]
Yes. But that’s far removed from the modern concept of separation of church and state. He believed in religious toleration and was against theocracy.[/quote] Yes sir that’s exactly what I’m driving at.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
…I can make my tongue say I’m a Christian, but can I will myself to truly believe? No…
[/quote]
I suppose you can’t.
I can.
[/quote]
Great job on addressing my post. Belief logically shouldn’t be a precedent for receiving a deity’s eternal salvation or damnation.
[quote]Ler012 wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Ler012 wrote:<<< While it is true the foundation of the United States is rooted in freedom from religious persecution, it is completely irresponsible (even looking at the issue as purely historical) to say that this country was not founded in Christian ideals. [/quote]Quite so. I have a wall I throw up every so often. Nobody cares.
[/quote]I dont post often on Tnation but I am trying to keep up more lately. Always enjoy reading your views on these topics.[/quote]You do?
[quote]Legionary wrote:<<< Great job on addressing my post. Belief logically shouldn’t be a precedent for receiving a deity’s eternal salvation or damnation.[/quote]Maybe you should let Him know He’s doing it wrong. I’m sure an eternal, blindingly holy, infinitely wise and omnipotent God by whose fiat command light and matter are called into existence from nothing is waiting in breathless anticipation for your opinion. The 1st chapter of the first letter of Paul to the Corinthians has your name all over it. Of course the whole chapter (and book) is great, but if you can’t make it through the whole thing, start reading at verse 18. 1 Corinthians 1 ESV
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.
[/quote]
Please drop the melodrama. Did someone in the past scoff at your faith? Boo hoo. You don’t live in Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, North Korea or Saudia Arabia. If anything religious and non religious minorities are being discriminated against by SOME Christians, particularly in legal, social and professional contexts. America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Judeo-Christian values, freedom of (and from) religion being an essential tenet. You know what you believe and so do I. Don’t construe the rare disapproval to attest that you are being targeted for your beliefs. If anything you are among the “approved” majority in America.[/quote]
Oh boy, massive history fail.[/quote]
Go ahead and give me the revisionist account then.[/quote]
America was founded on the values of “The Enlightenment”? LOL!
People came here to escape religious persecution. Go check your history books. NO WHERE is written that “America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment”. ← That is revisionist as hell.
Go ahead, prove that America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, please provide a link or something.[/quote]
To escape religious persecution? Only to persecute others once they arrived here.
[/quote]
Oh brother… In some areas yes, but mostly not.
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[quote]
Are you seriously calling into question the influence that the Age of Enlightenment had on the political philosophies of the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers? That is so obvious that it doesn’t need to explicitly stated anywhere. Ever read Two Treatises of Government? NO ONE had a greater influence on American Liberty than John Locke. There are many more others who had great impacts on this nation’s founding, all products of The Enlightenment. You probably also think that Jefferson deserves full credit for the Louisiana Purchase as well with that surface level view of History taught in far too many high schools across America. After all, that’s whats written in some book right? [/quote]
I don’t question that philosophical ideas from said enlightenment made it into the form of government that was established after the revolution and looooong after the Americas were ‘founded’. I do question the idea the country was ‘founded’ on the ‘values’ of the enlightenment. The homeland of the enlightenment was a monarchy which was then traded for a dictatorship. People being influenced by the modern thinking of the time is not new. The the governemental structure was not based on the ‘values’ of the enlightenment but heavily influenced by greek and roman political ideas and philosophies.
The fact that some of the founding fathers were deists does not make the country ‘founded on the values of the enlightenment’. The country was founded before the enlightenment after all, so technically it would have been impossible for it to be founded on the values of a movement that hadn’t happened yet.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
[/quote]
Tom was a great guy. Incredibly gifted. Unarguably one of the greatest of the Founding Fathers. However, while his deism during his life certainly seems to have served him well…he has now converted. He too has now met “De.”
[/quote]
Actually, Tom was a genius, certainly one of the top thinkers of the time, but a good person he was not. He wasn’t all fire evil either but he was certainly a flawed and conflicted man. For one who claimed to be a deist was often also very religious at times, especially towards the end, it’s practically all he talked about at least with John Adams. The Adams-Jefferson letters bare this out.
[quote]mbdix wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.
[/quote]
Please drop the melodrama. Did someone in the past scoff at your faith? Boo hoo. You don’t live in Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, North Korea or Saudia Arabia. If anything religious and non religious minorities are being discriminated against by SOME Christians, particularly in legal, social and professional contexts. America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Judeo-Christian values, freedom of (and from) religion being an essential tenet. You know what you believe and so do I. Don’t construe the rare disapproval to attest that you are being targeted for your beliefs. If anything you are among the “approved” majority in America.[/quote]
Oh boy, massive history fail.[/quote]
Go ahead and give me the revisionist account then.[/quote]
America was founded on the values of “The Enlightenment”? LOL!
People came here to escape religious persecution. Go check your history books. NO WHERE is written that “America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment”. ← That is revisionist as hell.
Go ahead, prove that America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, please provide a link or something.[/quote]
I’m not sure if this link helps, but 7th one down. Am I close?[/quote]
First one, actually.
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
Are you seriously calling into question the influence that the Age of Enlightenment had on the political philosophies of the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers? That is so obvious that it doesn’t need to explicitly stated anywhere. Ever read Two Treatises of Government? NO ONE had a greater influence on American Liberty than John Locke.
[/quote]
And Locke was deeply religious.[/quote]
Yes, and there is nothing I take issue with that. He also held sacred the separation of church and state, as do I. Religious belief is not the issue. Keeping the Church out of the affairs of the State and the State out of the affairs of the Church is however. For example, I was aghast that a friend in H.S who was our Valedictorian was told by a court that she couldn’t mention God or scripture in her graduation speech. That ruling was overturned by a higher court thankfully.[/quote]
Not this again! Read what I said here about Locke and separation of church and state:
For one thing, Locke didn’t believe atheists should be tolerated. I really don’t want to keep going around in circles with this. I spent significant time yesterday explaining separation of church and state.[/quote]
I suppose its good that I’m not an atheist then. Have you read his Letters Concerning Toleration?
“Three arguments are central: (1) Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints; (2) Even if they could, enforcing a single “true religion” would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence; (3) Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity.”[/quote]
Here’s what Adams said about Locke’s political philosophy:
"Mr. Locke, in 1663, was employed to trace out a plan of legislation for Carolina; and he gave the whole authority, executive and legislative, to the eight proprietors, the lords Berkley, Clarendon, Albemarle, Craven, and Ashley; and messieurs Carteret, Berkley, and Colleton, and their heirs. This new oligarchical sovereignty created at once three orders of nobility: barons, with twelve thousand acres of land; caciques, with twenty-four thousand, &c.; and landgraves, with eighty thousand. Who did this legislator think would live under his government? He should have first created a new species of beings to govern, before he instituted such a government.
That last line cracks me up…
[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Legionary wrote:
…I can make my tongue say I’m a Christian, but can I will myself to truly believe? No…
[/quote]
I suppose you can’t.
I can.
[/quote]
Great job on addressing my post. Belief logically shouldn’t be a precedent for receiving a deity’s eternal salvation or damnation.[/quote]
COL (chuckled out loud) at a mere created mortal having the hubris to dictate to his Creator what that Creator should or should not require from His creation.[/quote]
So “COL” to the mere created morals who wrote the Torah, Bible, and Koran? I never dictated anything, saying “shouldn’t,” not can’t. Do revealed religions and their followers (You included) not claim to have knowledge of the Creator’s will “revealed” through sacred texts? And I would think that the Creator of the Universe would transcend petty human emotions like anger and jealously. Hell, some humans have already done that.
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.[/quote]
If you are going back to Columbus then it was of course to set up trade with india and got in the way, so we traded with the indians. I assume we were talking about the first peoples to populate the continent. You know, the whole Mayflower thing. I am not really talk about ‘found’ but founded, those who populated the continent.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.[/quote]
If you are going back to Columbus then it was of course to set up trade with india and got in the way, so we traded with the indians. I assume we were talking about the first peoples to populate the continent. You know, the whole Mayflower thing. I am not really talk about ‘found’ but founded, those who populated the continent.[/quote]
I was speaking about the formation of the United States throughout the discussion, not colonies in the Americas. Miscommunication I suppose. Honestly, I am interested to hear how someone who seems like such a big fan of Hume’s work is a seemingly devout Catholic. No offense intended. Just want to hear your perspective on this.
[quote]Legionary wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
The Revolution was fought by a bunch of rag tag drunks.
You said founded by, and the Americas were founded by people escaping religious persecution initially. Not just from England either.
[/quote]
If we are going by “founded by” then you couldn’t be further from the truth. Good effort though.[/quote]
If you are going back to Columbus then it was of course to set up trade with india and got in the way, so we traded with the indians. I assume we were talking about the first peoples to populate the continent. You know, the whole Mayflower thing. I am not really talk about ‘found’ but founded, those who populated the continent.[/quote]
I was speaking about the formation of the United States throughout the discussion, not colonies in the Americas. Miscommunication I suppose. Honestly, I am interested to hear how someone who seems like such a big fan of Hume’s work is a seemingly devout Catholic. No offense intended. Just want to hear your perspective on this.[/quote]
The bigger question is why wouldn’t I be a fan of Hume? His work on causal relationships was revolutionary. I don’t have to be an agnostic/ atheist to like the work of one. I don’t have to be a democrat to enjoy rock music. He’s not the only philosopher I like, but he is one of my favorites. I am a big fan of Leibnez as well. He was just crazy enough to be right and we are largely just finding out now.