[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.
[/quote]
Please drop the melodrama. Did someone in the past scoff at your faith? Boo hoo. You don’t live in Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, North Korea or Saudia Arabia. If anything religious and non religious minorities are being discriminated against by SOME Christians, particularly in legal, social and professional contexts. America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Judeo-Christian values, freedom of (and from) religion being an essential tenet. You know what you believe and so do I. Don’t construe the rare disapproval to attest that you are being targeted for your beliefs. If anything you are among the “approved” majority in America.[/quote]
Oh boy, massive history fail.[/quote]
Go ahead and give me the revisionist account then.
…Also, there is no arguement that weak minded people believe or need to believe in God. Some of the greatest minds the world has ever known believed in God.
[/quote]
I would argue that you can’t have a great mind without that belief in Him.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to equate intelligence with Christianity? ONE religion of a species that has practiced thousands upon thousands over the course of its existence, whose followers had no less conviction than yourself in their beliefs? Are they somehow sub-par mentally for not believing in what you believe? That’s simply ludicrous.
…Also, there is no arguement that weak minded people believe or need to believe in God. Some of the greatest minds the world has ever known believed in God.
[/quote]
I would argue that you can’t have a great mind without that belief in Him.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to equate intelligence with Christianity? ONE religion of a species that has practiced thousands upon thousands over the course of its existence, whose followers had no less conviction than yourself in their beliefs? Are they somehow sub-par mentally for not believing in what you believe? That’s simply ludicrous. [/quote]
That is not what I am trying to say. What I am saying is that without God, for lack of a better term allowing the switch to be turned on, we would not have the ability to have great minds like we do. We would be animals, I don’t think we are just a different animal that through eveloution got to where we are. I think it took God to seperate us from other animals. I believe we are made in his image, and that allows us to have great minds. I might be wrong but, I interpret what Push said as this. All Glory to God. If a smart person doesn’t believe that, then they don’t have a great mind after all.
I am not trying to answer for Push. But stating what I took from his statement and what I agree with.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.
[/quote]
Please drop the melodrama. Did someone in the past scoff at your faith? Boo hoo. You don’t live in Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, North Korea or Saudia Arabia. If anything religious and non religious minorities are being discriminated against by SOME Christians, particularly in legal, social and professional contexts. America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Judeo-Christian values, freedom of (and from) religion being an essential tenet. You know what you believe and so do I. Don’t construe the rare disapproval to attest that you are being targeted for your beliefs. If anything you are among the “approved” majority in America.[/quote]
Oh boy, massive history fail.[/quote]
Go ahead and give me the revisionist account then.[/quote]
America was founded on the values of “The Enlightenment”? LOL!
People came here to escape religious persecution. Go check your history books. NO WHERE is written that “America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment”. ← That is revisionist as hell.
Go ahead, prove that America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, please provide a link or something.
…Also, there is no arguement that weak minded people believe or need to believe in God. Some of the greatest minds the world has ever known believed in God.
[/quote]
I would argue that you can’t have a great mind without that belief in Him.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to equate intelligence with Christianity? ONE religion of a species that has practiced thousands upon thousands over the course of its existence, whose followers had no less conviction than yourself in their beliefs? Are they somehow sub-par mentally for not believing in what you believe? That’s simply ludicrous. [/quote]
You’ll likely figure it out one of these days. Trust me.
Sidetrack: Intelligence/Knowledge and Wisdom differ somewhat.
[/quote]
As in I’m going to convert back to the Christianity? I don’t want to subjugate myself to that again. You are arguing for the inherent superiority of Christians above all others, am I correct? Can you please elaborate on your view?
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:<<< For me to have continued would have been arguing for the sake of arguing. >>.[/quote]I understand why you say that and in the real world outside of cyberspace, Jesus admonition not to cast His pearls before swine is much simpler. Think about this. If you look at the view and post counts for any thread, especially ones dealing with controversial topics wherein the gospel is under fire? The VIEW count is always several times what the post count is. In other words, dozens of people are watching that will never post. I’m talking to them. The person I’m in direct dialog with is just a vehicle (so to speak). I am NOT being critical of you. I simply said all that to say that as long as you’re in a spirit of truth and love, by God’s definitions, arguing is never simply for the sake of arguing in hostile forums like this.[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:<<< You are the first person to ask me what I do believe, thank you. >>>[/quote]It was nothing really =] , but you,re welcome. My hope is always that I’m meeting a new brother or sister in Christ, but that is VERY rarely the case. SAMA was the now decommissioned “Sex and the Male Animal” forum which basically amounted to a digital Sodom and Gomorrah where every conceivable form of libertine immorality, perversion and debauchery was openly discussed and displayed by thousands of men and women here. It was a fabulous testimony tester which served me well. When someone like you showed up talkin about Jesus I’d follow their posting history and almost every time I’d see them in there covering themselves AND my Holy Lord in the same filth with the pagans who thankfully make no claim on Christ at all. People would say they were a Christian and then be talking about their porn collection, multiple partners, wife swapping and abominable godless language, you name it. All in the name of Jesus. I kid you not. That’s where we’ve fallen to today. There’s also all kinds of postmodern heresy here where people think Christians don’t necessarily have to take the bible seriously where they don’t personally agree. (Homosexuality, pro choice, human macro evolution etc.) This is why I ask questions when somebody claims to know the Lord. Anybody can say anything. Nuthin personal. Now it’s a bit more time consuming to see who’s who, but you will know them by their fruit which ALWAYS shows up.[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:<<< I believe that my Savior, Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross in my place so that I might have life and rose from the dead three days later. I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord. Being baptized in The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit and repentance of sin and being cleansed in His blood. After these things, that we must spend every day trying to be more like Him and choosing to do things that edify our spirit and give all glory to God. Also that The Bible is my guide to life and is His living Word. Hopefully that will tell enough of my beliefs. >>>[/quote] Very VERY good indeed. Amen =] Would you be too terribly offended if I were to press you a bit further? I agree wholeheartedly with what you said as stated, but you do realize that a Mormon will say exactly what you just said for instance. Do you proclaim ONE, as in UNO, singular, everywhere and for all time, ONE God who is of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost? All three ONE and THE ONLY ONE God? Neither dividing the substance NOR confounding the persons? I do so very truly hope you are smiling reading this and understand why I am pursuing this line of inquiry. I guess I could have just asked if you were a Mormon huh lol!!![quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:<<< The reason why I stated that I thought it would be a waste of time is because â??He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.â?? Matthew 12:19 Testimony is more rewarding than debate to me although I would gladly discuss Christ with a non-believer that wanted to hear His message and I have. >>>[/quote] See above please.[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:<<< I don’t think that I can send or receive PM’s either but am not certain. >>>[/quote]Normally I would have this conversation in private first, but that’s ok I suppose. [quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:<<< Also, what is an SAMA forum? Forgive my ignorance. [/quote]Nothing to forgive. See above again please.
-America was indeed founded on Judeo-Christian values, here are some facts and quotes about Christianity and the founding of our country.
“God governs in affairs on men” -Ben Franklin, who is considered widely to be “not religious” also called for the 2 day break at the constitutional convention and make a declaration to pray for God’s divine intervention after weeks of stalled progress. After the two days of prayer (which a majority of those in attendance practiced) they re-assembled they began every meeting with prayer and the Constitution along with the Bill of Rights was finalized shortly thereafter.
“The Bible is the rock on which our Constitution rest.” -Andrew Jackson
Before 1850 there were close to 1,400 national calls to prayer by congress.
In 1782 congress printed a bible to be used alongside public education textbooks, although this fact is hotly debated, I admit.
“General principles of the Constitution fall on the principles of Christianity.” - John Adams
29 signers of Declaration of Independence held seminary or bible college degrees.
Benjamin Rush (considered father of American Medicine and signer of DOI): started Sunday school movement
Roger Sherman (signed all founding documents and largely responsible for house and senate): was a preacher
Charles Carrol: longest surviving member of DOI when asked in his late 80’s about his reflections of the founding of America is quoted as being thankful to God and Jesus Christ for their protection during the formation of the country.
For close to 150 years it was common for both the house and senate to hold sermons and a time of prayer before their meetings began.
While it is true the foundation of the United States is rooted in freedom from religious persecution, it is completely irresponsible (even looking at the issue as purely historical) to say that this country was not founded in Christian ideals.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.
[/quote]
Please drop the melodrama. Did someone in the past scoff at your faith? Boo hoo. You don’t live in Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, North Korea or Saudia Arabia. If anything religious and non religious minorities are being discriminated against by SOME Christians, particularly in legal, social and professional contexts. America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Judeo-Christian values, freedom of (and from) religion being an essential tenet. You know what you believe and so do I. Don’t construe the rare disapproval to attest that you are being targeted for your beliefs. If anything you are among the “approved” majority in America.[/quote]
Oh boy, massive history fail.[/quote]
Go ahead and give me the revisionist account then.[/quote]
America was founded on the values of “The Enlightenment”? LOL!
People came here to escape religious persecution. Go check your history books. NO WHERE is written that “America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment”. ← That is revisionist as hell.
Go ahead, prove that America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, please provide a link or something.[/quote]
To escape religious persecution? Only to persecute others once they arrived here. Liberty was limited only to those who worshiped God in an approved manner. John Winthrop was trying to establish what he called “A City on a Hill,” attempting to reform the Church of England by pious example. Many, in fact, intended on returning home once England changed its ways. Oh the Puritans of the Massachusetts Bay Colony fought the Revolutionary War and wrote the Declaration of Independence, as well as the United States Constitution? And all along I thought that it was an ENGLISH colony, as the idea of being an American did not exist yet. To be fair, the ideas of Natural liberty, Moral liberty, and Congregationalism were quite important and deserve a place in American History.
Are you seriously calling into question the influence that the Age of Enlightenment had on the political philosophies of the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers? That is so obvious that it doesn’t need to explicitly stated anywhere. Ever read Two Treatises of Government? NO ONE had a greater influence on American Liberty than John Locke. There are many more others who had great impacts on this nation’s founding, all products of The Enlightenment. You probably also think that Jefferson deserves full credit for the Louisiana Purchase as well with that surface level view of History taught in far too many high schools across America. After all, that’s whats written in some book right?
[quote]Ler012 wrote:<<< While it is true the foundation of the United States is rooted in freedom from religious persecution, it is completely irresponsible (even looking at the issue as purely historical) to say that this country was not founded in Christian ideals. [/quote]Quite so. I have a wall I throw up every so often. Nobody cares.
…Also, there is no arguement that weak minded people believe or need to believe in God. Some of the greatest minds the world has ever known believed in God.
[/quote]
I would argue that you can’t have a great mind without that belief in Him.
[/quote]
Are you seriously trying to equate intelligence with Christianity? ONE religion of a species that has practiced thousands upon thousands over the course of its existence, whose followers had no less conviction than yourself in their beliefs? Are they somehow sub-par mentally for not believing in what you believe? That’s simply ludicrous. [/quote]
You’ll likely figure it out one of these days. Trust me.
Sidetrack: Intelligence/Knowledge and Wisdom differ somewhat.
[/quote]
As in I’m going to convert back to the Christianity? I don’t want to subjugate myself to that again. You are arguing for the inherent superiority of Christians above all others, am I correct? Can you please elaborate on your view?
I would say that that its mostly semantics.
[/quote]
Yes, I believe you will one day convert to Christianity. It may be sooner. It may be later. Either way you will stand before your Creator someday to give account and at that point you will convert.
I firmly believe that. Now we can go all Pascal’s Wager on it if we want…[/quote]
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
This is more in line with my take on Pascal’s Wager.
Are you seriously calling into question the influence that the Age of Enlightenment had on the political philosophies of the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers? That is so obvious that it doesn’t need to explicitly stated anywhere. Ever read Two Treatises of Government? NO ONE had a greater influence on American Liberty than John Locke.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.
[/quote]
Please drop the melodrama. Did someone in the past scoff at your faith? Boo hoo. You don’t live in Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, North Korea or Saudia Arabia. If anything religious and non religious minorities are being discriminated against by SOME Christians, particularly in legal, social and professional contexts. America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Judeo-Christian values, freedom of (and from) religion being an essential tenet. You know what you believe and so do I. Don’t construe the rare disapproval to attest that you are being targeted for your beliefs. If anything you are among the “approved” majority in America.[/quote]
Oh boy, massive history fail.[/quote]
Go ahead and give me the revisionist account then.[/quote]
America was founded on the values of “The Enlightenment”? LOL!
People came here to escape religious persecution. Go check your history books. NO WHERE is written that “America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment”. ← That is revisionist as hell.
Go ahead, prove that America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, please provide a link or something.[/quote]
I’m not sure if this link helps, but 7th one down. Am I close?
Are you seriously calling into question the influence that the Age of Enlightenment had on the political philosophies of the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers? That is so obvious that it doesn’t need to explicitly stated anywhere. Ever read Two Treatises of Government? NO ONE had a greater influence on American Liberty than John Locke.
[/quote]
And Locke was deeply religious.[/quote]
Yes, and there is nothing I take issue with that. He also held sacred the separation of church and state, as do I. Religious belief is not the issue. Keeping the Church out of the affairs of the State and the State out of the affairs of the Church is however. For example, I was aghast that a friend in H.S who was our Valedictorian was told by a court that she couldn’t mention God or scripture in her graduation speech. That ruling was overturned by a higher court thankfully.
Are you seriously calling into question the influence that the Age of Enlightenment had on the political philosophies of the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers? That is so obvious that it doesn’t need to explicitly stated anywhere. Ever read Two Treatises of Government? NO ONE had a greater influence on American Liberty than John Locke.
[/quote]
And Locke was deeply religious.[/quote]
Yes, and there is nothing I take issue with that. He also held sacred the separation of church and state, as do I. Religious belief is not the issue. Keeping the Church out of the affairs of the State and the State out of the affairs of the Church is however. For example, I was aghast that a friend in H.S who was our Valedictorian was told by a court that she couldn’t mention God or scripture in her graduation speech. That ruling was overturned by a higher court thankfully.[/quote]
Not this again! Read what I said here about Locke and separation of church and state:
For one thing, Locke didn’t believe atheists should be tolerated. I really don’t want to keep going around in circles with this. I spent significant time yesterday explaining separation of church and state.
“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.”
[/quote]
Tom was a great guy. Incredibly gifted. Unarguably one of the greatest of the Founding Fathers. However, while his deism during his life certainly seems to have served him well…he has now converted. He too has now met “De.”
[/quote]
“De?” Are you referring to the Latin “Deus?” Many Deists and related philosophies call God by that name. Do you believe that God would have received Jefferson negatively Push? I’d like to think that He could see past his beliefs to his work on behalf of his fellow man.
Are you seriously calling into question the influence that the Age of Enlightenment had on the political philosophies of the American Revolution and the Founding Fathers? That is so obvious that it doesn’t need to explicitly stated anywhere. Ever read Two Treatises of Government? NO ONE had a greater influence on American Liberty than John Locke.
[/quote]
And Locke was deeply religious.[/quote]
Yes, and there is nothing I take issue with that. He also held sacred the separation of church and state, as do I. Religious belief is not the issue. Keeping the Church out of the affairs of the State and the State out of the affairs of the Church is however. For example, I was aghast that a friend in H.S who was our Valedictorian was told by a court that she couldn’t mention God or scripture in her graduation speech. That ruling was overturned by a higher court thankfully.[/quote]
Not this again! Read what I said here about Locke and separation of church and state:
For one thing, Locke didn’t believe atheists should be tolerated. I really don’t want to keep going around in circles with this. I spent significant time yesterday explaining separation of church and state.[/quote]
I suppose its good that I’m not an atheist then. Have you read his Letters Concerning Toleration?
“Three arguments are central: (1) Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints; (2) Even if they could, enforcing a single “true religion” would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence; (3) Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity.”
