How's The Bible Right - Being a Good Person?

[groo]

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Persecution can simply be to treat somebody differently, poorly, based on what they believe. [/quote]

Then everyone is persecuted, everywhere. People treat me differently sometimes because of my political and religious beliefs too. On this very forum, posters occasionally deride me for something I believe (and I do it back, of course. It’s just part of discussion). I wouldn’t call myself “persecuted.”

I think such a strong word should be reserved for people facing formidable or state-sponsored opposition. Copts in Egypt maybe, or girls who want to attend school in Northern Pakistan.[/quote]

I don’t treat you differently because of what you believe. Also, although I do believe that Christians are persecuted (replace with sufficient word if you don’t feel that is appropriate), I do not personally let it bother me or shake me from my course. It’s merely an observation or statement and it doesn’t bother me. Trials and tribulations I am thankful for.

persecute
verb

1. victimize, hunt, injure, pursue, torture, hound, torment, martyr, oppress, pick on, molest, ill-treat, maltreat They have been persecuted for their beliefs.
   [/quote]

Dictionaries aren’t authorities they merely describe usage.

Context is important.[/quote]

According to that philosophy, it would always be open to interpretation. [/quote]

I would say you are using persecution in a very banal sense if you want to equate what the woman in the Sudan went through with a non theist hassling you in the US and think those things are truly synonomous.
[/quote]

The word has a broad definition and I never argued that anything was synonymous. By your logic, a person that was hit has no reason to be upset because he could have been shot and that’s worse. Do you not see that both are wrong? There are worse things that happen to people that live outside of Sudan. That shouldn’t discount what that woman or those women were put through.[/quote]

Generally speaking when someone uses the term religious persecution they are meaning something akin to the holocaust. Or Missouri condoning Mormons being killed. Its rarely and by rarely I’ve personally never seen it used in the sense of wow I was persecuted in that philosophy class by those atheists. Using in the broad sense trivializes the other I believe.

However I concede your point sometimes in the US people that have religious convictions do get their feelings hurt.
[/quote]

Oh dear, yes. I see your point and that I did replace it with about the same thing. Please disregard and tell me what word would satiate you in the sense that I would like to use it?

I did not raise a point about people having their feelings hurt. I’m not sure where that came from.[/quote]
Well I’d say that there has been little or no government mistreatment of Christians in the US. And with the exception of certain sects of Christians being mistreated by other sects little by private groups.

In fact I’d claim the opposite more likely that Christians systematically mistreat other religions in the US. Though I don’t find that a particularly compelling claim either. I just say its much more likely that would occur in the US than the other.

[pat]

[quote]CornSprint wrote:
Pat 1: People as a whole are far from perfect-I would propose that the vast majority of us understand the basis of many teachings that would make our lives more pleasant and amicable (golden rule in particular) but fail to apply it when tempers rise. It is definitely easier to speak on theory than to practice it.
[/quote]
K

Pat 2: The first sentence is fair-I was just referring to what was proposed in this thread as one reason.

In terms of the “ridiculousness” I reference, I’m speaking mainly on some of the (in my mind) overly restrictive/antiquated tenants set forth in the Old Testament (dietary for instance). Incredibly large was hyperbole-it is indeed vastly outweighed by either neutral or positive messages. I got caught up in my end of the discussion.

I can only imagine you are referring to the Pentateuch when referring to the restrictions and stuff. I think you really need to look at the time and who these people were to understand the ‘rules’. These were a largely uneducated bunch who had no rules who lived pretty chaotic lives. It’s telling that God had to tell them not to have sex with their live stock several times, or not to eat buzzards and vultures. Pigs tended to carry a lot of disease and stuff too and with out proper cooking even today, pork can make you ill.
Some of it was designed for respect and reverence to God but much of it was just flat for their own good so they could survive and prosper as a people and set themselves apart from others.

[quote]

In regards to my religious beliefs-I have read the Bible in its entirety once and specific sections more often. From my reading/readings I have found more value personally in approaching it (Old Testament in particular) in such a way that I take the lessons but not the literal words themselves to heart. For me the over-arching messages remain the same but the minutia I run into day to day falls into the realm of the mind and teachings God has given us.[/quote]

Well, each book has it’s own audience and context and intention. You have to understand it for what it was to them and that’s when you can accurately get pertinent stuff. The Pentateuch for instance, served many purposes. Not only as Holy Scripture and rules to live by, but also a constitution for a theocratic Jewish Nation. And after Solomon the Torah was basically lost and forgotten, but God did not give up on his people.

[Dr_Matt581]

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

The word has a broad definition and I never argued that anything was synonymous. By your logic, a person that was hit has no reason to be upset because he could have been shot and that’s worse. Do you not see that both are wrong? There are worse things that happen to people that live outside of Sudan. That shouldn’t discount what that woman or those women were put through.[/quote]

That is incorrect. Nobody is saying that Christians in America should not complain about any mistreatment, real or perceived. He is saying that calling the treatment of Christians in America “persecution” is not really appropriate. The treatment of Christians in, say, some of the more extremist Islamic nations is more in line with the general understanding of persecution. The general treatment of Christians in the US is not comparable at all to that, so using the same word to describe that treatment is inappropriate in the same way claiming that being punched is equivalent to being shot.

I would be very interested to hear specific examples of how you feel treated unfairly because of your beliefs in America.

[smh23]

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

I would be very interested to hear specific examples of how you feel treated unfairly because of your beliefs in America.
[/quote]

I second this. And I’m not saying this because I doubt that you have been derided–we all know atheists can be insufferable assholes. I’d just be curious to understand what constitutes persecution in your view.

[Legionary]

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.
[/quote]

Please drop the melodrama. Did someone in the past scoff at your faith? Boo hoo. You don’t live in Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, North Korea or Saudia Arabia. If anything religious and non religious minorities are being discriminated against by SOME Christians, particularly in legal, social and professional contexts. America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Judeo-Christian values, freedom of (and from) religion being an essential tenet. You know what you believe and so do I. Don’t construe the rare disapproval to attest that you are being targeted for your beliefs. If anything you are among the “approved” majority in America.

[Legionary]

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

I would be very interested to hear specific examples of how you feel treated unfairly because of your beliefs in America.
[/quote]

The same question could be asked of religious and non religious minorities as well, who don’t enjoy the ubiquitous social approval as the majority of our Christian peers.

[smh23]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
The usual slough of T Nation 20-something atheists/agnostics/know-it-all’s has found some new prey.[/quote]

Again, nobody is jealous of you because you’re old.

And I don’t think anybody’s being unreasonable here or attacking her beliefs. This is about argument and discussion, right? About different opinions? Or should we just accept everything that everyone says around here?

Christians aren’t generally persecuted in this country. They in fact have historically been the persecutors around here. And the details given–someone being rude to you because of who you are or what you believe or what you say–guess what, that’s not persecution. It’s life. It’s part of operating among other people who don’t think like you do, some of whom are assholes. That doesn’t qualify as persecution and to pretend that it does is melodramatic nonsense.

Do I doubt that abrasive atheists have been rude to her and you and most of the other believers around here? Of course not. Like I said, we all know atheists can be insufferable assholes. Their standard-bearers usually are.

But that’s life, not persecution.

Shit, you just derided me because I’m younger than you and happen to disagree with you. Doesn’t mean I feel persecuted. Because I’m not.

[therajraj]

Do any xians here have any experiences of being persecuted for being persecuted?

[Jackie_Jacked]

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
We should be aware that we will be persecuted for what we believe and that our reward comes after this life on earth.
[/quote]

Please drop the melodrama. Did someone in the past scoff at your faith? Boo hoo. You don’t live in Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, North Korea or Saudia Arabia. If anything religious and non religious minorities are being discriminated against by SOME Christians, particularly in legal, social and professional contexts. America was founded on the values of the Enlightenment, not Judeo-Christian values, freedom of (and from) religion being an essential tenet. You know what you believe and so do I. Don’t construe the rare disapproval to attest that you are being targeted for your beliefs. If anything you are among the “approved” majority in America.[/quote]

Yes, my approval is obvious, especially in this thread where everyone has respected my beliefs, no? I have stated that I believe in freedom in choosing your own religion, whether it be different from mine. I’ve also stated that I do not take offense by anyone’s disapproval of my beliefs. Why do you seem to take offense towards what I believe? Quite honestly, if anyone is being melodramatic, it’s you.

[Jackie_Jacked]

[quote]pushharder wrote:
The usual slough of T Nation 20-something atheists/agnostics/know-it-all’s has found some new prey.[/quote]

It is fine, pushharder. lol I knew what I was getting myself into before I ever posted my first post. Honestly, I should have known better but here I am.

I will be back to continue this discussion but for now it may have to wait a few days.

[groo]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
The usual slough of T Nation 20-something atheists/agnostics/know-it-all’s has found some new prey.[/quote]

It is fine, pushharder. lol I knew what I was getting myself into before I ever posted my first post. Honestly, I should have known better but here I am.

I will be back to continue this discussion but for now it may have to wait a few days. [/quote]

Trust me, they are shrill and quite boring. I’ve been here long enough to be able to establish a virtual law of physics: their belief system that your belief system is hopelessly flawed is ardently and unequivocally religious.[/quote]

I said nothing about her belief system other than I disagreed with its premises. Just stated Christians aren’t persecuted in America. And they aren’t. You already said you wouldn’t provide examples. Historically the Mormons were persecuted …they are for certain either less persecuted or not persecuted now…though many Christians would say they aren’t Christian.

That’s truly the only example I can think of a Christian sect being persecuted. There are certainly more that I can cite of Christians persecuting…though that wasn’t really in question it was more what persecution has she or any other Christian faced in America.

[Karado]

Chuck Missler spoke about an ATHIEST Quantum Physicist whose personal revelations
were so strong, that we really do NOT die, and that consciousness is not what we
think it is based on his experiments, equations, etc, that it drove him to suicide.
Reality is not what we think it is, so I’m careful with all of it because we
DON’T know everything, and critcisms of Religious Beliefs, etc. are all based
on our limited perceptions of it, and tend to cast judgments about it based on the
the sketchiest of all senses, our limited PHYSICAL senses.

We see the World through a “Reality Filter”, it may seem simplistic for now, but if
you for Example, take your Remote Control and aim it Toward your Webcam, you will see
the Pulsating Infrared white light on your Computer Screen, yet you cannot see it with the naked eye.
Or if you went outside on a Sunny Day, and we saw EVERY Spectrum of Light the Sun gave out,
we wouldn’t be able to see a thing…we would walk outside totally Blind.
We see what we are ALLOWED to see by God, or whoever you think is out there.
Point is, just we because cannot “See” something, it doesn’t mean it’s not “there”,
and that includes the possibilty of the Spirit World on a whole other possible Spectrum.

[Dr_Matt581]

[quote]pushharder wrote:

It’s a sliding scale, Matt. Surely you can understand this.
[/quote]

And you know as well as I do that Slippery Slope arguments are a logical fallacy. If it what you said was true, then any amount of discrimination would always lead to more, and yet discrimination against blacks has decreased in the past 50 years (not as much as it should, but that is a topic for another thread). In reality, sometimes discrimination gets worse and sometimes it gets better.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]tmay11 wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
Ok, I have read a few of the topics here on religion. I see logic in both points of view SOMETIMES. But, how does one explain how the way the Bible and holy books describe how we should live and be better people by following those lesson’s, and be so right?

I guess what I’m trying to say is how it describes for instance, watching who you associate with because it will make you like them. That holds true today, yesterday, and forever. Where could such a wisdom come from, so long ago? [/quote]

Really?

Do you think that people were totally unenlightened barbarians back then?

Ever heard of Aristotle ? Seneca ?

In terms of practical wisdom or insights the Bible contains very little that was new for it’s time. [/quote]

No. Aristotle condemned charity especially largesse to the poor and weak man.

[Dr_Matt581]

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

Yes, my approval is obvious, especially in this thread where everyone has respected my beliefs, no? [/quote]

Who has disrespected your beliefs? I read through the entire thread and found your logic, reasoning, and conclusions attacked, but you should expect that on a forum where the primary form of dialogue is debate. In fact, most have taken it very easy on you so far.