How Would You Have Reacted?

[quote]Makavali wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
ANY SO CALLED MAN THAT LAYS HIS HANDS ON A WEAKER MAN WITHOUT JUSTIFIED PROVOCATION IS AN EFFING COWARD, A CUR DOG, A SNAPPING, SNARLING TOY POODLE BEHIND A FENCE.

Exactly.[/quote]

Or he might just be fucking nuts. We can coward stuff all we want, but some of these people are batshit crazy. And belligerent.
But unfortunately, they’re not all toy poodles. s0ome are Rottweilers, Sheperds, and Pit Bulls.

Violence like this can happen very quickly and once it starts it gets very messy.

I don’t want to be critical towards anyone, but how many people hear have had actual training in the use of lethal force? All the ins and outs of your state and the potential consequences.

I understand people here have righteous outrage at this. Believe me, I also do. But translating that outrage into real world action in a real world situation is a whole different story.

This guy who beat that small guy is a felon, who supposedly was a drug dealer? That might not be cowardice, just plain nuts. or just plain asshole. Would he pick on a guy his size, who knows? But there aren’t to many 6’4" 300 pound guys out there.

And if he was high and or was a guy who is used to fighting, he wouldn’t go down to easy.

Honestly, who cares if you get fucked up too, at that point wouldn’t your adrenaline be racing high enough to just go apeshit on that big dudes head? throw a chair at his face then jump on his head. those punches didn’t look THAT controlled. he was just relying on his size.

im sure it would still hurt a bit ah what the hell am i talking about…

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Stuff.[/quote]

Once again, you think about what might happen to you and ignore the fact that it’s already happening to someone else. Having read what the guy said on the phone, even confronting the guy was uncalled for.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Possumwee wrote:
This just happend in the UK, with a queue jump and some girl calling her boyfriend again

This guy died though…

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20080612/tuk-man-remanded-over-supermarket-death-6323e80.html

What the fuck is wrong with people?[/quote]

Sense and restraint is slowly dying off.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Stuff.

Once again, you think about what might happen to you and ignore the fact that it’s already happening to someone else. Having read what the guy said on the phone, even confronting the guy was uncalled for.[/quote]

What the guy said he said. Personally, I remain skeptical that he bothered to describe her clothing but nothing else.

[quote]schultzie wrote:
Honestly, who cares if you get fucked up too, at that point wouldn’t your adrenaline be racing high enough to just go apeshit on that big dudes head? throw a chair at his face then jump on his head. those punches didn’t look THAT controlled. he was just relying on his size.

im sure it would still hurt a bit ah what the hell am i talking about…[/quote]

Not necessarily, one good shot to the head and your adrenaline won’t matter.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Stuff.

Once again, you think about what might happen to you and ignore the fact that it’s already happening to someone else. Having read what the guy said on the phone, even confronting the guy was uncalled for.[/quote]

Okay, do you think you could handle the big guy? I don’t think I can. I’m 5’7", not tall but 205 pounds. I bench over 300 deadlift around 600, just missed it two weeks ago, have some self defense training with a knife and more with a gun. Including the laws and what will happen after the event if you use a knife or gun.

I think a lot of people here are seriously overestimating their abilities because of justified outrage. Now,
I could handle that guy with a gun, and maybe a knife. But if a verbal warning of leave that guy alone doesn’t work, what other options do I have? shooting or stabbing.

I don’t think in this situation I would just walk with a justifiable homicide. Of course, the leave him alone man might work. Maybe pulling a gun might work as a warning. But as I said before, these situations are all different. Maybe I have a different perspective because I did take professional training and know the risks, and maybe that will cause me to err on the side of caution. But a lot of folks here are letting this is a load of crap outrage color their perceptions of what they would do in a real world situation.

I mentioned one situation earlier where I thought I,I had another where my wife was sort of assaulted. We where at PSU the night before a big game. She got about a yard or so in front of me to the left. I saw a fellow to my left about 30-40 feet away from her lock onto with an angry look. He started towards her, looking like he meant to hit her or something. I did have a gun and a knife, but he had no visible weapon, beer bottle, or anything he could strike her with. He had on clothing and it was warm, so I had no worries about a concealed weapon.

Because of the crowds and what I just mentioned, I would have to hit him or restrain him. By the time I got even with her, ( this took maybe 3 seconds or so real time), he got nose to nose to here and screamed in her face. I was right to his left with my arm drawn back ready to hit him, but I just let him walk past since he didn’t hit or grab her. He had to be wasted. His buddy just caught up to him and said thanks. I just told him to get him home before he gets in trouble.

Now, I might have been justified, but I did save talking to the police and still had a nice night.

This story took me a few minutes to type. It happened in 3+ seconds. Violence can happen that quick and your awareness will save you and prevent you from making a wrong decision. It easy to look at a horrible video and say I’d do this or that, but the whole damn thing might be over by the time you even figure what is going on. It’s very easy to say I would do this or that, it’;s a different thing to do this or that.

Tom, I’m not taking your post personally and I don’t think you’re directing anything to me per se, but I do take exception to how you “think”. It sounds to me like you’re a helluva theorist (maybe you’d make a great teacher) and while you’re at it, you like to tell a good story.

You can handle a gun but you’re worried about the big fat out of shape guy? LMAO. There is no defense to a gun if someone truly intends to shoot you and draws first. WTF.

You can handle a gun? Have you ever been shot? I have. Have you ever been stabbed? I have. And finally, I’ve been paid quite well in the past to protect people - having that ability and training, and accepting money for it, makes me no better than a paid mercenary if I can’t even care about my fellow man for free. It’s a matter of human decency. It would be like allowing a man to die of thirst while you’re holding gallons of water and are fully hydrated.

And by the way, helping that man does NOT require that you WIN, only that you intervene and stop the attack. That man could have died. While you’re theorizing, have you any idea the number of people that DIE after having been punched from falling and hitting their head? An attack that savage, when the man is not defending himself, and the attacker is continuing, is a grave situation - it’s not a simple assault.

I don’t know what anyone else here would or wouldn’t do. I think alot of people here have been quite honest saying they wouldn’t get invovled. Although its disappointing, its also refreshing from the usual false internet bravado. As for me, I’ll say it one last time - fat boy would have been collecting his chicklets scattered among the crumbs on the floor when he woke up, or maybe the parking lot, after I chuckled at his fat ass for thinking he could fight.

You seem to think an awful lot. When you’re truly trained, you act and you do so appropriately. When you think you’re trained, you think and then maybe act appropriately or maybe not at all. Perhaps you’re merely “in training”…? Or maybe you’re only trained when your family is involved.

None of the foregoing means I fancy myself some damn hero. I don’t play hero. If the other guy was mouthing off and threatening or otherwise wanted or deserved the altercation, I’m minding my own business, if and until its obvious he’s in serious danger.

And while we’re telling stories, it was just last week I took a hammer from a convicted felon who I barely knew/met when he was getting ready to clock someone I didn’t know at all - and he WOULD have hit him too. It’s all in how you handle something. I didn’t confront him, challenge him, etc. Most of this stuff is psychological - I made him think I didn’t want him to get in trouble. Now maybe that’s my initial tact with fat boy…who knows…but I’m not letting that happen. The point is, as you know, there is more than one way to handle something when you have ability and confidence. The best bouncers are the guys that can get someone to leave without force…and much of that has to do with letting a man keep his pride. But you don’t see too much of that skill anymore. Just big juiced up bullies, bullying smaller drunk people. More poodles behind fences. Poodles with a bunch of other poodles…safety in poodle numbers.

We need more sheep dogs in the world. Not fence sitters. There is a time to act and a time to mind your own business. That was not a time to mind your own business.

Maybe one day god forbid your wife or children are in danger and you’re not there. I’m sure you’d hope a sheepdog was around…and not someone that was thinking of their own self-interest, the laws of force or whether they would get hurt or not.

Some situations REQUIRE simple human decency. End of effing story. End of debate.

And to the other poster talking about pitbulls and rotts…sometimes even pitbulls are poodles at heart. You’re referring to a mere 1% of real pitbulls out there. Most predators go for the injured gazelle, the weak. Human predators are no different.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Tom, I’m not taking your post personally and I don’t think you’re directing anything to me per se, but I do take exception to how you “think”. It sounds to me like you’re a helluva theorist (maybe you’d make a great teacher) and while you’re at it, you like to tell a good story.

You can handle a gun but you’re worried about the big fat out of shape guy? LMAO. There is no defense to a gun if someone truly intends to shoot you and draws first. WTF.

You can handle a gun? Have you ever been shot? …[/quote]

I think he means he knows how to use a gun.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

You can handle a gun? Have you ever been shot? I have. Have you ever been stabbed? I have. And finally, I’ve been paid quite well in the past to protect people - having that ability and training, and accepting money for it, makes me no better than a paid mercenary if I can’t even care about my fellow man for free. It’s a matter of human decency. It would be like allowing a man to die of thirst while you’re holding gallons of water and are fully hydrated.

[/quote]

OMG, with your credentials I do believe you would act right away to help the poor guy.

This is me: I never even held a gun, I only use knives to cut my food, the worst wound I had was from falling off my bike when I was around 8 and scraped my knees, been in fistfights in high school (20+ yrs ago) but nothing serious, more like a punch to the face and some leg kicks and lots of tough name calling. I work in an ER and I see almost daily people with severe injuries or dying because of guns, knives, baseball bats, chains or bare hands. To me, due to selection bias (a statistical parameter), EVERY fight out there has a terrible outcome.

From my perspective, 100% of people involved in fights out there end up in my ER, sometimes dead or disabled for life. That is because the ones that are not injured don’t come to the ER. And I’ve seen this for almost 10 yrs on a daily basis. So, whenever I see anything violent going on, I’m conditioned to see what I ALWAYS see: potential for disaster. And that makes me think hard before doing anything that, in my experience, has a high probability it would left me dead or disfigured or unable to provide for my family. So I do understand when YOU say you’d jump to help, because you’ve done it before on so many occasions that it became a reflex, an automatism.

Now this is a meaningful sacrifice:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-061208-rainier-escape-jun13,0,5874312.story

Bodyguard, you are 6’1" 275 pounds and highly trained in taking down individuals. Would you agree you have more then a slight edge in dealing with that situation (the original vid). You by the nature of your profession are trained and instinctively wired to take action in this situation combined with size.

14 percent bodyfat at 275 pounds you got quite a bit of muscle. That’s like me holding a 44 Magnum and deriding someone who isn’t armed for not taking on a bear even if he had 99 guys backing him up.

D

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
Bodyguard, you are 6’1" 275 pounds and highly trained in taking down individuals. Would you agree you have more then a slight edge in dealing with that situation (the original vid). You by the nature of your profession are trained and instinctively wired to take action in this situation combined with size.

14 percent bodyfat at 275 pounds you got quite a bit of muscle. That’s like me holding a 44 Magnum and deriding someone who isn’t armed for not taking on a bear even if he had 99 guys backing him up.

D[/quote]

I thought I addressed the above but maybe in my rant I did so poorly. There were a few “men” in that crowd. Action doesn’t require you to “win”, it requires you to act, to intervene. If every man in that store reacted to prevent this, the outcome would be different. I understand not everyone has the size or skill to take on a large violent man. But everyone should have the decency not to stand by idly and let such a thing occur.

I hope no one gets the impression that I think everyone should be like me…and I hope no one gets the impression that I think I’m some effing hero - I’m far from it. But what I do have is a shred at least of decency.

I say common decency requires the men in that store to act - do something. And that together, this could have been prevented. Is fat boy going to beat up all 5-6 men in that video before he has a heart attack? No.

I ask you - what if he had attacked a woman? Do we all stand idly by and watch? Probably not right? So why is it a defenseless (relatively) man is more expendable? Does he not have a mother, father, perhaps brothers, sisters, maybe a wife and children at home that love him? Does he not deserve to return home in one piece, in good health?

People like that low life coward animal in that video operate as they do because of the mindset illustrated in this thread. “Not my problem”. Maybe one day its YOUR loved one that has been set upon by one of these low life filthy cowardly animals.

I ask you, what good is it to be equipped with a penis and testicles, to be a man, if you will not act as a man should? Those men should have “stormed the cockpit”, together, and prevented this senseless assault.

If it were only one other man in the store, I would be sympathetic to the lack of action.

I hate to be all preachy, but damn, this is TMAG, home of a bunch of chest thumping don’t curl in the damn squat rack frat boy or I’ll crush you with my 300lbs bench press and tie you up with my jump stretch bands.

To the ER person, you are right…but what about that man having to show up in someone’s ER room - needlessly. What about him?

It’s simple, we either let these animals operate or we don’t. If a lion wants to take out another lion, I say stand aside and let natural selection take its course. But when that lion comes for a sheep, I say we chase the lion back to jungle and, if necessary, put it to sleep.

[quote]Dedicated wrote:
Bodyguard, you are 6’1" 275 pounds and highly trained in taking down individuals. Would you agree you have more then a slight edge in dealing with that situation (the original vid). You by the nature of your profession are trained and instinctively wired to take action in this situation combined with size.

14 percent bodyfat at 275 pounds you got quite a bit of muscle. That’s like me holding a 44 Magnum and deriding someone who isn’t armed for not taking on a bear even if he had 99 guys backing him up.

D[/quote]

I couldn’t resist pointing one thing out. Protection work is 99% avoidance and has nothing to do with size. And most confrontations can be avoided. Like I said, two weeks ago, I took a hammer from a guy not by force, but by sincerely acting as though I did not want him to get in trouble and that I was on his side. I met the man that day (he was doing work for my friend). He was as irrational as a man could be and about to strike a man that was drunk and could not have defended himself. To the point, I did not “know” or have a vested interest in either man and could have easily decided it was “none of my business”. This incident was occuring in Camden NJ, where this type of scene plays out daily, usually with guns. He could just as easily wheeled about to strike me and maybe I don’t go home that night to my two year old who I love dearly, not to mention my two older boys. I didn’t think about any of that. All I knew was that a man was about to throw away his life by returning to prison and more importantly, was likely to kill someone who couldn’t even stand up straight and didn’t even possess the wits necessary to know he should get out of Dodge.

The situation, shall we say, required a measure of decency (my friend became involved too - I was reluctant until I realized he was serious about clocking the guy and didn’t care about returning to prison), not brute force by a big guy who could fight.

We are ALL capable of decency. It does not require size or skill, just courage and fortitude.

I agree with you to a large extent and in my previous post a few pages back said I would have felt compelled to act. I just would have thought about the best way to do it.

I just wanted to point out that for someone with your abilities it is far easier to act then for some who due to their lack of ability in regard to your skills may have been paralyzed in that situation or even if they did take it upon themselves to act may have been able do only get themselves hurt or enflame the situation.

Also, protection work may have nothing to do with size, but you got it and it helps. You don’t see too many 5’3" bodyguards. The ones I’ve seen escorting celebs seem to be quite large in fact.

I guess in the end the difference I see is that some have a romantic view of the event in terms of how they would act and my view I feel is more pragmatic.

D

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
Makavali wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Stuff.

Once again, you think about what might happen to you and ignore the fact that it’s already happening to someone else. Having read what the guy said on the phone, even confronting the guy was uncalled for.

What the guy said he said. Personally, I remain skeptical that he bothered to describe her clothing but nothing else.[/quote]

What exactly is it that you think he said? I think he may have sworn a couple of times.

The woman also admitted to being pissed off and having anger management problems and pleaded guilty so it clearly can’t have been too bad.

It’s a tough situation no doubt. The guy on the cell phone was obviously being a dumb ass and didn’t handle the situation as best he could. Maybe he deserved to take a punch or two–definitely not what he ended up getting though. It’s unfortunate that the guys in there didn’t do anything, though. Could they have held him down until the cops came? You bet. Did he have buddies in the car or a gun in his pants? Not sure…hindsight is 20/20, thats all I know.

It comes down to what TC wrote about a little bit ago: being a man. You have to try your best to think and do the right thing.

  1. If the fight has broken out already, the first task is a big failure. As people have mentioned it’s a way better idea to try to talk to these 2 guys and disarm them, get the one to apologize and tell the other dude he didn’t mean it and he’s dumb and you don’t want to end up in jail for killing him.

  2. WTF is with this lack of human decency? Mr. Hot Shot drug dealer feels the need to beat the hell out of this guy for making a fleeting comment about the dumb broad who did something wrong in the first place. It’s not a fair fight too, I mean I’m all for natural selection, but c’mon…you’re gonna try to kill this guy who’s 1/2 your size for a comment? A COMMENT? He’s got parents, siblings, friends, a life it totally blows my mind that people make such a big deal out of such a small incident. Sure scare his ass, maybe push him around, but that just proves the big drug dealer is a coward and totally lacks any decency or sense of reality.

(Same goes for the grocery store hero… just pathetic)

  1. It seems people think being a man is being a bad ass in tough guy situations. (I will say a man DOES ACT, in situations when its needed) And I’m all for helping the guy in the video but like other said, what if it ended up getting someone shot and killed? A real (smart) man would’ve done everything in his power to deescalate the situation. Just like a man wouldn’t beat a woman, try to shoot or stab someone unless it was life or death, or make a tiny incident–like a comment, grocery store line cut, or seat at a casino-- such a big fucking deal that someone will end up dead or in the ER.

Just like health and fitness (the basis of T-Nation)…most people have no idea how to, and don’t care to, learn to act the right way.

[quote]DouglasJ16 wrote:
It’s a tough situation no doubt. The guy on the cell phone was obviously being a dumb ass and didn’t handle the situation as best he could. Maybe he deserved to take a punch or two–definitely not what he ended up getting though. It’s unfortunate that the guys in there didn’t do anything, though. Could they have held him down until the cops came? You bet. Did he have buddies in the car or a gun in his pants? Not sure…hindsight is 20/20, thats all I know.

It comes down to what TC wrote about a little bit ago: being a man. You have to try your best to think and do the right thing.

  1. If the fight has broken out already, the first task is a big failure. As people have mentioned it’s a way better idea to try to talk to these 2 guys and disarm them, get the one to apologize and tell the other dude he didn’t mean it and he’s dumb and you don’t want to end up in jail for killing him.

  2. WTF is with this lack of human decency? Mr. Hot Shot drug dealer feels the need to beat the hell out of this guy for making a fleeting comment about the dumb broad who did something wrong in the first place. It’s not a fair fight too, I mean I’m all for natural selection, but c’mon…you’re gonna try to kill this guy who’s 1/2 your size for a comment? A COMMENT? He’s got parents, siblings, friends, a life it totally blows my mind that people make such a big deal out of such a small incident. Sure scare his ass, maybe push him around, but that just proves the big drug dealer is a coward and totally lacks any decency or sense of reality.

(Same goes for the grocery store hero… just pathetic)

  1. It seems people think being a man is being a bad ass in tough guy situations. (I will say a man DOES ACT, in situations when its needed) And I’m all for helping the guy in the video but like other said, what if it ended up getting someone shot and killed? A real (smart) man would’ve done everything in his power to deescalate the situation. Just like a man wouldn’t beat a woman, try to shoot or stab someone unless it was life or death, or make a tiny incident–like a comment, grocery store line cut, or seat at a casino-- such a big fucking deal that someone will end up dead or in the ER.

Just like health and fitness (the basis of T-Nation)…most people have no idea how to, and don’t care to, learn to act the right way.[/quote]

I haven’t posted in this thread, but I’ve been following it along just for fun. I think this was a good summary post, and the last small statement there was the straight forward truth about our society today, as it would seem anyway. Cheers to you sir.

I hate you all so much

except Emily.
I <3 social workers.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
I hate you all so much

except Emily.
I <3 social workers.[/quote]

So you’re worth less than 3 social workers?

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:
Aleksandr wrote:
I hate you all so much

except Emily.
I <3 social workers.

So you’re worth less than 3 social workers?[/quote]

I’d like to say WTF? I posted this, but somehow my computer logged me on as Phoenix1911 for a second there.