How to Stop a Toyota

Off Topic
21

[quote]blithe wrote:

[quote]Fuzzyapple wrote:

[quote]pushmepullme wrote:
Yeah, I read somewhere that the Prius only acts like it’s being shifted into neutral and doesn’t actually shift into neutral. Whatever.
[/quote]

When asked, they will probably blame the economy.

What I don’t understand is why the brakes don’t work when the gas is stuck.

Computer
Error Code 145 - “Attempting brake stand…unauthorized…reverse application of brakes.”
Success
Error Code 146 - “Attempting e-brake drift…unauthorized…reverse application of e-brake.”
Success

I wouldn’t be surprised if it thought like that lol.[/quote]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4344079.html

If you scroll down to the first step, braking, they give a description of why it doesn’t work:

The brakes will require significantly more force than normal because when the engine throttle is wide open, there’s no engine vacuum to power the brake booster. [/quote]

You pretty much nailed it. There are other ways to get power assist for the brakes (ie. from the power steering pump) but Toyota isn’t currently using any that I know of. The shim they are installing in the pedal is a joke, it basically just puts more pressure on the return spring which, once it further weakens over time, is going to just create the same problems they are getting now. Some stuck pedals are, in fact from the friction in the pedal but I believe more of them are actually malfunctioning Throttle Positioning Sensors in the pedal. There are two in every pedal, one for a backup in case the first fails, but there is a communication issue between the sensors and the PCM.

I actually work at the Toyota dealership here, and we haven’t seen any cases or close calls around here yet, but it’s a relatively small area compared to the millions of vehicles on the road right now. I don’t say we will see any. I think someone mentioned earlier about not being able to shift to neutral while the engine is at full throttle, but I would have to disagree with that, they don’t do that because it’s a safety hazard. The best thing to do would be to just leave the gear shift where it is and turn the engine off and the key back to the ACC or Run position, so the steering will not lock. With an automatic the torque converter will disengage either wherever the gear shift is. There should be enough reserve vacuum in the system to stop the car with relative ease.

Yes, Toyota is fucking up but most of the catastrophe could be prevented with some basic knowledge and common sense.

PC

22

Oh, I forgot about the push button starters. In a case like that, yes, you should shift to neutral. But most of the vehicles affected have the standard key ignition, anyway. I personally hate push button start on vehicles.

23

As to why the brakes didn’t work in the Prius, whereas ordinarily the brakes are more than powerful enough to overpower the engine even at full throttle (if actually standing on them as opposed to pressing moderately), I’m guessing it may have to do with the regenerative braking system and computer control.

I think the brake pads of the Prius do not press against the calipers in lighter braking, but instead only regenerative braking is used, which cannot overcome the engine’s power.

ProfessorChaos, does the same computer control whether the brake pads are allowed to engage as controls the electronic throttle?

That would be a stupid system: they should be independent, and furthermore I would think a regenerative braking system should be designed such that a mechanical linkage resulted in zero movement in the actuation of the hydraulic brake system until a given point was reached, whereas after that point there would be direct mechanical transmission of the force and movement.

Having a system, if Toyota did so, where a computer can decide that the hydraulic brakes should not be actuated but only the regenerative brakes would be really stupid, it seems to me. I don’t know that they did that. Did they?

It would seem the only reasonable explanation for today’s incident.

24

Bill, the regenerative braking system is built in conjunction with the ABS controller. There is a regenerative braking controller much the same as an ABS module, so no it’s not controlled by the PCM like the throttle. However, in the cases where Toyota’s brakes are failing, basically what’s happening is the brake controller decides whether or not the regenerative braking is enough to stop the vehicle or not. If it isn’t, it hands the job over to the standard brakes.

Because the TPS in the pedal are fucking up, it kind of mis-judges, and doesn’t realize the car is actually barreling down the highway at 180 km/h, and, in turn tries to stop it by using the regenerative brakes, or spinning the electric motor backwards effectively turning it into a generator. The system actually works quite nice, if you are slowing in traffic or coasting to a stop, you charge your batteries but if you happen to step on the brakes it’s all hydraulic. Except when it fucks off, then you have a situation.

25

Thank you. That makes sense, in terms of what’s been happening and mechanics.

Doesn’t make sense as a way to design the system, as personal opinion. Enough force/travel of the brake pedal and the ABS should NOT decide to keep pressure off the brake pads. With enough force/travel of the brake pedal, the only input capable of doing that should be input of the wheel being at incipient skid.

At least, so it seems to me.

26

Yeah the only thing with the Prius though (and most hybrids) is they don’t use a vacuum booster. It wouldn’t make sense, because the gas engine isn’t always running and therefore there isn’t a constant source of vacuum. The power assist for the brakes is done through a set of hydraulic accumulators which is controlled electronically, that is why the force/travel of the brake pedal isn’t the only input capable of stopping the car.

It’s all kind of complex, and I’m not exactly a Hybrid Tech (yet) so that’s about the extent of my knowledge. It’s only going to get more complicated from here on out, so expect to see some fuck ups from every car maker eventually, not just Toyota.

27

I want a Prius with the badassness of a Rubicon.

28

Rice Burners = death traps

Buy only Ford. GM and Chrysler are government bitches.

Ford is the last bit of freedom and capitalism in the auto market.

29

If the car is in gear at 94 MPH you would still have enough power to the brake booster than anyone should be able to brake successfully. Failing that put it in neutral. Natural Selection lol

30

I just dont understand whats with the all the accidents. I once had the throttle stick on my old truck. The second I touched my breaks and barely slowed my acceleration I threw the truck in neutral, then turned the engine off when i had slowed enough. Isnt this just common driving sense??? Just goes to show they will give anyone a license.

31

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Rice Burners = death traps

Buy only Ford. GM and Chrysler are government bitches.

Ford is the last bit of freedom and capitalism in the auto market. [/quote]

Fix Or Repair Daily

Chevy or bust!

Ok in reality though, I guess Fords are alright… Maybe…

32

Pull the smug plug.

33
34

Found
On
Roadside
Dead

I thought I heard on a local radio station that that guy has a history of attempting bogus insurance claims. Wouldn’t be surprised if he faked the whole thing.

This thread is funny, my parents have 2 priuses, the original model and the new model. My dad is pressed about the good gas mileage, pretty much the exclusive reason why they got them. It can get up to 94, as in if you press the pedal to the floor all the way and keep it there while it slowly accelerates.

35

Hold the power button for 3 seconds.

Or Shift to Neutral (takes 1/2 a second) then hold the power button for 3 seconds.

Or Shift to Neutral ( press your brakes, engage your parking break ) then hold the power for 3 seconds.

Lol - it only takes 3 seconds to shut down all main power -_-

36

Yes.

While there are many situations where clearly a few seconds of unintended acceleration can cause an accident – one is in traffic, or there’s a sharp turn right ahead, or a stop was needing to be made at about the same time the unintended acceleration occurred – when it comes to these cases of going up to speeds such as 90 mph, at best this is a combination of stupid driver and flawed vehicle.

And where it’s not a Prius (therefore no issue of perhaps being limited to the regenerative braking) and there’s a claim of standing on the brakes, then the cause is driver error, because the driver probably is telling the truth about standing on something, and if it were the brakes, the car wouldn’t have accelerated.

37

Toyota’s CEO provides clarity on the matter:

38

dumb people behind the wheel… sad that people have died because of it but people die because of bad drivers everyday.

39

[quote]Hellfrost wrote:
Press up-down-up-down-B-A-B-A-B-A-left-right-left-right-select-start.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_runaway_prius

I am not sure how hybrid cars work, but wouldn’t shifting to neutral, brake, and turning the engine off be able to stop the car even if the accelerator is stuck?

I’d rather blow my motor then smash into something at +100mph.[/quote]

Exactly, he’s a scam artist. This fellow has filed at least two insurance claims for thousands of dollars that were very suspicious. He also has filed for bankruptcy, owing app. 700,000 dollars.

He has claimed he had to reach down and unstick the gas pedal by hand while driving. Try that some time. You won’t be able to reach. He’s just trying to shake down Toyota for cash.

40

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Hellfrost wrote:
Press up-down-up-down-B-A-B-A-B-A-left-right-left-right-select-start.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_runaway_prius

I am not sure how hybrid cars work, but wouldn’t shifting to neutral, brake, and turning the engine off be able to stop the car even if the accelerator is stuck?

I’d rather blow my motor then smash into something at +100mph.[/quote]

Exactly, he’s a scam artist. This fellow has filed at least two insurance claims for thousands of dollars that were very suspicious. He also has filed for bankruptcy, owing app. 700,000 dollars.

He has claimed he had to reach down and unstick the gas pedal by hand while driving. Try that some time. You won’t be able to reach. He’s just trying to shake down Toyota for cash.[/quote]

and bingo was his name-o