[quote]TheDon12:
I agree. Even if you do lean gains , eventually you’re going to have to go on a cut weather it be sooner or later. By saying you don’t you’re implying that you’ve gained all of your muscle at the same bodyfat lvl.[/quote]
If you gain 25 pounds and stay at te same bodyfat level you did not gain muscle only.
Even if you gain some additional bodyfat a “cut” isn’t necessary.
“Cut” is such a stupid phrase.[/quote]
When people say cut i think of losing fat. Even if its 2-3 levels of bodyfat . [/quote]
I guess that’s where we differ.
I think of cutting as what bodybuilders do for a show.
Or what Marz is doing.
Or what HT is doing.
Or what paulieserafini was doing.
I don’t think someone trying to tighten things up a little bit (2-3% like you said) and dial their bodyfat in as “cutting”
When the fat gain gets to be too much you tighten things up, not an all out “cut”
Tightening up would be: slightly reducing calories, increasing cardio, increasing volume, or any combination of those.[/quote]
Question…if fat gain became too much…but you were gaining muscle at a fast rate…would you still diet because of the fat gain? Or would you continue to gain more muscle since your body is in an anabolic state?[/quote]
Not sm but from personal experience I cut. In fact that’s what I am doing now. Was gaining well but waist got to big for my liking. So cut time. This wil only leave me In a better spot to start gaining from again. Hormones will be netter body will respond better. I will feel better ect ect[/quote]
That is great that you feel better. That is good.
Do you understand that your body will not grow in a predictable cyclical pattern and that the one who takes advantage of when IT is ready to grow will make more progress in the long run than someone who uses that time to lose weight instead?[/quote]
I understand quite a bit I think. I know growing from a lean state is best and easiest. The ratio of fat to muscle gain drops at higher bf. hormones start doing dumb things. I won’t explain this because I hate typing on this thing.
About progress I am happy with technique and progress so far. I am 10lbs heavier than the end of last summer and a notch or two leaner. That to is good progress.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Assuming the StepMill is that rotating staircase…that thing is a BITCH.
[/quote]
Yes. That one.
It is the favored weapon of the Lean Empire.
It beckons me. I both love it and shun it. It’s a complicated relationship.
[/quote]
FUCK THAT THING…no way to take any kind of break.
even on super slow, and then I feel like I am being judged by the hot girl behind me on the elliptical.[/quote]
Can’t do it. Too much calf/tibialis pump 3 min in[/quote]
You have to build up to it.
Ever get crazy calf pumps when you first started incline treadmilling?[/quote]
No I get them on flat land walking into class. I haven’t been on a tread mill in 2 months Becuase of pumps. Elyptical all the way[/quote]
Are the pumps painful?
Do they cause numbness and tingling in your feet or toes?
Do you lose flexion and extension ROM in your foot when you get the pumps?
[/quote]
Just pain. No other problems. Like I need to sit down for 10 min for them to go away. I can see my tibialis anterior protruding lol[/quote]
Have you ever looked into exertional compartment syndrome/exercise-induced compartment syndrome?[/quote]
Learned about it in school. I have none of the accompanying symptoms. But it’s interesting[/quote]
That’s good that you don’t have other symptoms.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Well, so far, the only benefit I see to “intentionally carrying extra weight for a period of time, before losing it”, is that theory of greater bodyweight → increased bone density → greater muscular growth.
If one person takes a lean gains approach to their diet and ends up at 12% bodyfat in the end, and another takes a “bulk and cut” (i.e, bulk and diet back down) approach to end up at 12% bodyfat in the end… that bone density theory is the only explanation I have for the 2nd person having more muscle than the first.[/quote]
Quoting myself, but…
I’d think you could produce a similar result by carrying an additional 50-100lbs of gear around every day like combat infantry does, without adding the bodyfat. Not that that works for most people in most lines of work, but it’s an idea that might produce similar results.
Plus, when you “lose” the weight (by taking it off), you don’t have to deal with any muscle loss like you would with a cyclical surplus/deficit cycle.
[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Assuming the StepMill is that rotating staircase…that thing is a BITCH.
[/quote]
Yes. That one.
It is the favored weapon of the Lean Empire.
It beckons me. I both love it and shun it. It’s a complicated relationship.
[/quote]
FUCK THAT THING…no way to take any kind of break.
even on super slow, and then I feel like I am being judged by the hot girl behind me on the elliptical.[/quote]
Can’t do it. Too much calf/tibialis pump 3 min in[/quote]
You have to build up to it.
Ever get crazy calf pumps when you first started incline treadmilling?[/quote]
No I get them on flat land walking into class. I haven’t been on a tread mill in 2 months Becuase of pumps. Elyptical all the way[/quote]
Are the pumps painful?
Do they cause numbness and tingling in your feet or toes?
Do you lose flexion and extension ROM in your foot when you get the pumps?
[/quote]
Just pain. No other problems. Like I need to sit down for 10 min for them to go away. I can see my tibialis anterior protruding lol[/quote]
Have you ever looked into exertional compartment syndrome/exercise-induced compartment syndrome?[/quote]
Learned about it in school. I have none of the accompanying symptoms. But it’s interesting[/quote]
That’s good that you don’t have other symptoms.[/quote]
The damn fascia in the legs is so tough. It’s quite amazing
[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
I think of cutting as what bodybuilders do for a show.
Or what Marz is doing.
Or what HT is doing.
Or what paulieserafini was doing.
I don’t think someone trying to tighten things up a little bit (2-3% like you said) and dial their bodyfat in as “cutting”[/quote]
I agree that the terms ‘bulk’ and ‘cut’ are both useless; especially as bastardized as the terms have become. I prefer surplus and deficit.
Things do reach a point where where there is so much weight to loose that the term cut does apply…I like your examples above. In your opinion; where do you feel that line is…10% of current weight(from 220 to 200), 15%(230 to 200), 20%(240 to 200), or more?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Plus, when you “lose” the weight (by taking it off), you don’t have to deal with any muscle loss like you would with a cyclical surplus/deficit cycle.[/quote]
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Plus, when you “lose” the weight (by taking it off), you don’t have to deal with any muscle loss like you would with a cyclical surplus/deficit cycle.[/quote]
A lifter does not loose LBM during a deficit! [/quote]
I thought there was muscle loss, especially as cardio was added in.
I thought one of the main concerns in dieting and training during a deficit was how to retain as much LBM while shedding fat.
Clearly there’s some gaps in my knowledge. Could you elaborate a little bit?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Well, so far, the only benefit I see to “intentionally carrying extra weight for a period of time, before losing it”, is that theory of greater bodyweight → increased bone density → greater muscular growth.
If one person takes a lean gains approach to their diet and ends up at 12% bodyfat in the end, and another takes a “bulk and cut” (i.e, bulk and diet back down) approach to end up at 12% bodyfat in the end… that bone density theory is the only explanation I have for the 2nd person having more muscle than the first.[/quote]
[quote]rds63799 wrote:
I really don’t understand how there can be any debate on this issue.
Whether you bulk slowly, or do the whole “see food” diet, eventually you will get to a level of bodyfat that is unacceptable. When that happens, you cut.[/quote]
My understanding with the “lean gains” approach is that you never really get to a point where you need to cut, unless you’re cutting for a competition.[/quote]
I really do hate the word “bulk” and “cut.”
IMO, “Cutting” shouldn’t be necessary unless you are prepping for a show.
“Cutting” implies an all out push for extensive fat loss.
That shouldn’t be necessary unless you A. Are prepping for a show and need to be 4-6% BF or B. You let your bodyfat level get out of hand.
Adjusting calories, cardio or the amount of work being done can pretty easily bring things back of you start to get loose and a all out “cut” isn’t necessary.
I just hate that word and what it implies.
Most people, IMO, won’t/shouldn’t need to actually “cut”[/quote]
Finally after reading this whole stupid fullhouse/lean arguement something I can argee with. When YOU get uncomfortable tighten shit up. Its the reverse of how everybody thinks "bulking is just eaing everything nailed down instead it being if you want to add size a little faster eat a little more.
Most importantly, unless you are at the apex of what another person wants to achieve, then stop telling them how they should do it.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Plus, when you “lose” the weight (by taking it off), you don’t have to deal with any muscle loss like you would with a cyclical surplus/deficit cycle.[/quote]
A lifter does not loose LBM during a deficit! [/quote]
I thought there was muscle loss, especially as cardio was added in.
I thought one of the main concerns in dieting and training during a deficit was how to retain as much LBM while shedding fat.
Clearly there’s some gaps in my knowledge. Could you elaborate a little bit?[/quote]
There will be minimal loss off in any while dropping to respectable leanness. Now contest dieting may be different but that is dieting to a much more extreme level of leanness. Just dropping high singles or 10ish you won’t be losing muscle.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
The ratio of fat to muscle gain drops at higher bf.[/quote]
This only applies to obesity.
[quote]
About progress I am happy with technique and progress so far. I am 10lbs heavier than the end of last summer and a notch or two leaner. That to is good progress. [/quote]
No one is saying you didn’t make good progress. I asked you something very specific and you didn’t answer it.
Do you understand that your body will not grow in a predictable cyclical pattern and that the one who takes advantage of when IT is ready to grow will make more progress in the long run than someone who uses that time to lose weight instead?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Plus, when you “lose” the weight (by taking it off), you don’t have to deal with any muscle loss like you would with a cyclical surplus/deficit cycle.[/quote]
A lifter does not loose LBM during a deficit! [/quote]
I would completely agree with this regarding a well thought out and executed deficit.
Everyone freaks out that they had to lose up to 30lbs to be shredded when they estimated their body fat at a comfortable 10-12% when they were obviously fatter and so use the excuse “oh I lost muscle on this cut” to explain why they are lighter.
Obviously water and glycogen changes makes a big difference too.
The ratio of fat to muscle gain drops at higher bf.[/quote]
This only applies to obesity.
[quote]
About progress I am happy with technique and progress so far. I am 10lbs heavier than the end of last summer and a notch or two leaner. That to is good progress. [/quote]
No one is saying you didn’t make good progress. I asked you something very specific and you didn’t answer it.
Do you understand that your body will not grow in a predictable cyclical pattern and that the one who takes advantage of when IT is ready to grow will make more progress in the long run than someone who uses that time to lose weight instead?[/quote]
Can you explain why you think your first sentence?
And I answered that question with yes I understand. But I also said you can set yourself up for better gains by leaning down. And stated that good progress can be made this way
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Well, so far, the only benefit I see to “intentionally carrying extra weight for a period of time, before losing it”, is that theory of greater bodyweight → increased bone density → greater muscular growth.
If one person takes a lean gains approach to their diet and ends up at 12% bodyfat in the end, and another takes a “bulk and cut” (i.e, bulk and diet back down) approach to end up at 12% bodyfat in the end… that bone density theory is the only explanation I have for the 2nd person having more muscle than the first.[/quote]
There is much more to it than that.[/quote]
What else is there? Genuinely asking, since your response was vague.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Plus, when you “lose” the weight (by taking it off), you don’t have to deal with any muscle loss like you would with a cyclical surplus/deficit cycle.[/quote]
A lifter does not loose LBM during a deficit! [/quote]
I thought there was muscle loss, especially as cardio was added in.
I thought one of the main concerns in dieting and training during a deficit was how to retain as much LBM while shedding fat.
Clearly there’s some gaps in my knowledge. Could you elaborate a little bit?[/quote]
There will be minimal loss off in any while dropping to respectable leanness. Now contest dieting may be different but that is dieting to a much more extreme level of leanness. Just dropping high singles or 10ish you won’t be losing muscle. [/quote]
I see, I didn’t realize that. I guess my information was biased because the majority of diet discussion that I read around here IS about contest dieting.
Can you explain why you think your first sentence?[/quote]
There is no evidence showing a minimal change in body fat or even a moderate body fat changes hormones the way you described. This is very individual and most studies only point to OBESITY being the cause.
[quote]
And I answered that question with yes I understand. But I also said you can set yourself up for better gains by leaning down. And stated that good progress can be made this way[/quote]
But…no evidence shows you make better gains simply by being a little leaner.
I have seen no evidence that someone gains muscle faster because they are “10%” over “17%”.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
Well, so far, the only benefit I see to “intentionally carrying extra weight for a period of time, before losing it”, is that theory of greater bodyweight → increased bone density → greater muscular growth.
If one person takes a lean gains approach to their diet and ends up at 12% bodyfat in the end, and another takes a “bulk and cut” (i.e, bulk and diet back down) approach to end up at 12% bodyfat in the end… that bone density theory is the only explanation I have for the 2nd person having more muscle than the first.[/quote]
There is much more to it than that.[/quote]
What else is there? Genuinely asking, since your response was vague.[/quote]
I explained it before…from leverage to set point theory to joint lubrication…all of this can effect strength which would also effect gains in muscle.