How to 'Bulk' For Naturals

Training
241

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:
Question for X

How do you know when your body is “ready to grow”?

One of your more common responses to the lean bulk crew is something along the lines of “why would I worry about cutting, when my body is primed for growth?” And you frequently speak as if the only way to gain REAL MASS (what you fancy yourself to have), is to just keep pushing, other wise you will limit your potential. Why do you think disregarding higher fat gain, or accepting higher fat gain means your gaining more muscle as well? Do you, or even the lean bulk crew think your body builds muscle that drastically different at different % ? I think no, which is why the lean bulkers are arguing for trying to stay leaner, because muscle will be built as fast as possible in a reasonable surplus, no greater no less than an even bigger surplus.

I went off on a tangent a little, but how do you personally know IT is ready to gain muscle? If people could literally tell when there body was primed for muscle growth, I dont think most people would ignore it to lean out. But I dont understand how you know. Feel extra hungry, recent strength increase, lookin’ sexy in the mirror, scale weight hasn’t budged lately so you’re “due”, gut instinct??

Not trying to just shoot you down or something, genuinely curious as to how you come to the conclusion your body is about to blossom with muscle so it needs all the food it can get.[/quote]

I asked him this same damn thing: “How do you know your body is primed for five pounds of muscle gain?”

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I know its been asked before, but if I remember correctly it was some vague response like, “by listening to my body” or a complete dismissal. I’m hoping to get an actual response, but expecting something along the lines of: “this(referring to himself) doesn’t happen by mistake” or “gee, I’m too fat to see my muscle, so I must be making this up”

243

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]red04 wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Do you know many people that “fucked up their leverages” whilst leaning down? (Not a making a point, I actually want to know)

[/quote]

If absolute strength is a goal, and some guy leans down and his numbers come down as a consequence then by definition he fucked up his leverages for his aim.

Now, on the other hand, if someone’s interested in maintaining mass, and they do this, even while their big lifts go down, then then altering leverages is of no consequence for his aim.
[/quote]

Switch the squats in my analogy to pullups. Will losing fat fuck up the leverages? Who will have the most muscle mass at the end?
[/quote]

A 330lb person isn’t going to be able to do nearly as many pullups as a 170lb person though, so that comparison is pretty shitty too.[/quote]

Right: totally different lift. And there is pretty much nothing in the way of “leveraging” in a pullup. Same with dips and nearly every bodyweight lift. [/quote]

If you follow my analogy from start to finish, both lifters start doing pullups at a bodyweight of 170lbs. They repeat the same workout and rep scheme, and added weight. One lean gains, the other bulks.

Your right there is no leveraging, which is exactly my point. If someone bulks up to 330 from 170, and does it so that they can still do 15 pullups with the same added weight as mr lean, then they will have way more muscle than mr lean…
[/quote]

All this really shows that a ‘bulk’ would be beneficial if both were just doing BW exercises I suppose. Other lifts like the Bench, OHP are going to be made ‘easier’ with a heavier BW, so if both Mr. Lean and Prof never added weight to pressing exercises, Prof isn’t make much progress probably.

And I’ll go out on a limb and say basically 9/10 times a guy who can Squat 225x15 @ 170 is going to be more muscular then a guy who Squats 105 lbs less then his BW for 15. [/quote]

You did read my posts right? The example was moved on to where both trainees added weight…

If a bulk is beneficial doing BW exercises, how is it not beneficial in exercises where you lift most of your bodyweight plus added weight?

Heavier bodyweight makes bench press easier? How much body mass do you think it takes to shorten the range of motion of your bench press by three inches? If you don’t arch your back for maxiumum muscle recruitment, to shorten that range of motion how much bodyfat do you need on your chest? two inches of fat thickness over the upper pecs?

If leverages played that much of a part in the bench and were assisted by fat, then your average obese couch potato who has never lifted in his life is going to be plenty stronger than your average untrained skinny lifter right? Which of course is always the case…??

And of course, closer to reality, your average 25% plus skinny fat kid who gets into lifting is always way stronger than the kid carrying the same LBM but at much lower bodyfat?

You can out on a limb all you want, but you are basically stating that someone whose muscles can do physically more anaerobic work and has placed their muscles under more muscluar tension as well as eating all the food they want, will be less developed than someone who can do less work and has been subjecting them to 100lbs less muscular tension over the course of their workouts, and has been eating and training like someone who has been trying to stay in a weightclass.

244

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Heavier bodyweight makes bench press easier? How much body mass do you think it takes to shorten the range of motion of your bench press by three inches? If you don’t arch your back for maxiumum muscle recruitment, to shorten that range of motion how much bodyfat do you need on your chest? two inches of fat thickness over the upper pecs?

If leverages played that much of a part in the bench and were assisted by fat, then your average obese couch potato who has never lifted in his life is going to be plenty stronger than your average untrained skinny lifter right? Which of course is always the case…??

And of course, closer to reality, your average 25% plus skinny fat kid who gets into lifting is always way stronger than the kid carrying the same LBM but at much lower bodyfat?

You can out on a limb all you want, but you are basically stating that someone whose muscles can do physically more anaerobic work and has placed their muscles under more muscluar tension as well as eating all the food they want, will be less developed than someone who can do less work and has been subjecting them to 100lbs less muscular tension over the course of their workouts, and has been eating and training like someone who has been trying to stay in a weightclass.
[/quote]

My god, you have the art of weasel wording down pat.

245

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:
Question for X

How do you know when your body is “ready to grow”?

One of your more common responses to the lean bulk crew is something along the lines of “why would I worry about cutting, when my body is primed for growth?” And you frequently speak as if the only way to gain REAL MASS (what you fancy yourself to have), is to just keep pushing, other wise you will limit your potential. Why do you think disregarding higher fat gain, or accepting higher fat gain means your gaining more muscle as well? Do you, or even the lean bulk crew think your body builds muscle that drastically different at different % ? I think no, which is why the lean bulkers are arguing for trying to stay leaner, because muscle will be built as fast as possible in a reasonable surplus, no greater no less than an even bigger surplus.

I went off on a tangent a little, but how do you personally know IT is ready to gain muscle? If people could literally tell when there body was primed for muscle growth, I dont think most people would ignore it to lean out. But I dont understand how you know. Feel extra hungry, recent strength increase, lookin’ sexy in the mirror, scale weight hasn’t budged lately so you’re “due”, gut instinct??

Not trying to just shoot you down or something, genuinely curious as to how you come to the conclusion your body is about to blossom with muscle so it needs all the food it can get.[/quote]

During a deload after a properly planned training cycle, Your body is most definately primed for growth, assuming you hit new weight or rep PR’s in the peak tonnage week. During the deload week I always eat way more and it doesn’t go on as fat.

246

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Heavier bodyweight makes bench press easier? How much body mass do you think it takes to shorten the range of motion of your bench press by three inches? If you don’t arch your back for maxiumum muscle recruitment, to shorten that range of motion how much bodyfat do you need on your chest? two inches of fat thickness over the upper pecs?

If leverages played that much of a part in the bench and were assisted by fat, then your average obese couch potato who has never lifted in his life is going to be plenty stronger than your average untrained skinny lifter right? Which of course is always the case…??

And of course, closer to reality, your average 25% plus skinny fat kid who gets into lifting is always way stronger than the kid carrying the same LBM but at much lower bodyfat?

You can out on a limb all you want, but you are basically stating that someone whose muscles can do physically more anaerobic work and has placed their muscles under more muscluar tension as well as eating all the food they want, will be less developed than someone who can do less work and has been subjecting them to 100lbs less muscular tension over the course of their workouts, and has been eating and training like someone who has been trying to stay in a weightclass.
[/quote]

My god, you have the art of weasel wording down pat.

[/quote]

I’m guessing you have no logical and factually based refutation to what I wrote. If you don’t post anything of that nature now, then I hope people realise that you have basically admitted you can’t actually argue with the logic of what I wrote, and are just trying to save face.

Queue further ducking of factual points.

KFC fits my macros. Yay!

247

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Queue further ducking of factual points.

KFC fits my macros. Yay![/quote]

LMAO - the guy with the masters in nutrition, who’s sporting a great physique, has to listen to a worthless shitstick like you.

A little fucking pussy who runs his sewer endlessly, pukes out the most retarded shit imaginable, and is such a belly crawling, worm shit coward that he won’t even post a SINGLE PICTURE of his undoubtedly dogshit physique.

You probably don’t even lift moron.

Show the board that you have something to back up your ridiculous bullshit - or fuck off and sew that cock holster shut permanently.

Christ, I can’t fucking stand you…

248

Brick - please stop lowering yourself to respond to this fucking moronic piece of shit.

Seriously - he’s yet another big mouthed fuckbag, who refuses to even post a pic of his physique, dribbles bullshit all day long, and is way too fucking stupid to even realize the ridiculous nonsense he spews.

Please stop responding to this worthless bag of dicks, please!!?

249

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
During the deload week I always eat way more and it doesn’t go on as fat.[/quote]

Stop telling everyone how awesome you are, and post a fucking pic you pussy.

250

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]bwilliamsr89 wrote:
Not trying to just shoot you down or something, genuinely curious as to how you come to the conclusion your body is about to blossom with muscle so it needs all the food it can get.[/quote]

I asked him this same damn thing: “How do you know your body is primed for five pounds of muscle gain?” [/quote]

Since one cannot know* for sure, one must simply ensure the surplus nutrients are always available.

So maintain the surplus and if you put on more fat than LBM, ‘you’re either not training hard enough’ or ‘you’re not just not cut out for this’.

*nevermind the fact that eating habits/routines are completely malleable, despite a strong hormonal influence

251

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
BlueCollarTr8n – While we’re in ‘fantasy’ mode, if someone offered you, I don’t know, a bajilliongazillion dollars to add an inch of “quality mass” to your arms, starting right now, same age, same starting body, everything, how would you go about doing it? Let’s add that this offer expires in 1 year (ie. you have one year to do it).

Do you think you could even do it? ← that’s not meant to sound snarky-- just asking that at 50 (or late 40’s or even 60), could a guy with your lifting history and present size/composition do this? Assume natural.

Don’t get caught in the semantics of ‘quality mass’, you know what I’m asking :wink: [/quote]

Does have to be at the the same level of Leanness when the inch is measured? If not then bulk up arms will go up and inch because of fat and glycogen you will lose definition but hey your arm will be “bigger”

252

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

Do you know many people that “fucked up their leverages” whilst leaning down? (Not a making a point, I actually want to know)

[/quote]

If absolute strength is a goal, and some guy leans down and his numbers come down as a consequence then by definition he fucked up his leverages for his aim.

Now, on the other hand, if someone’s interested in maintaining mass, and they do this, even while their big lifts go down, then then altering leverages is of no consequence for his aim.
[/quote]

I say we take a look at the world record holder in the 242 class of raw lifting to see if being lean fucks with leverages.

253

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Does have to be at the the same level of Leanness when the inch is measured? If not then bulk up arms will go up and inch because of fat and glycogen you will lose definition but hey your arm will be “bigger”[/quote]

This is not the response I’m looking for.

254

[quote]SkyNett wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
Queue further ducking of factual points.

KFC fits my macros. Yay![/quote]

LMAO - the guy with the masters in nutrition, who’s sporting a great physique, has to listen to a worthless shitstick like you.

A little fucking pussy who runs his sewer endlessly, pukes out the most retarded shit imaginable, and is such a belly crawling, worm shit coward that he won’t even post a SINGLE PICTURE of his undoubtedly dogshit physique.

You probably don’t even lift moron.

Show the board that you have something to back up your ridiculous bullshit - or fuck off and sew that cock holster shut permanently.

Christ, I can’t fucking stand you… [/quote]

I find it funny what I write bothers you so much. Sounds like you’ve got some issues to work on.

If you want to debate me please join in, I’m not going to hold your little temper tantrum against you.

Otherwise you can write whatever shit you want. It just makes you look bad.

U MAD BRO? lol

255

[quote]LoRez wrote:
While “lean bulking” seems to be the general forum sentiment these days, the traditional “bulk and cut” approach has been used successfully by decades of bodybuilders as well as just general physique enthusiasts.

I don’t want to have a discussion of pros or cons of bulking. There’s been hundreds of threads over the years.

I’m interested in a “how to”. Diet, training, other lifestyle changes, etc.[/quote]
I’ve done it this way with success: 4-6 weeks calorie surplus (about 500-750 calories additionally), then a 2 week switch to below maintanence calories (about 500 calories). I also employ a carb rotation of 2 high days, 2 low and 3 medium days of carbs. Protein and fat are the same throughout the weeks.

256

I don’t really think the hypothetical example before holds that much water.

So let’s say you have a 170lb lifter who pushes himself every session and follows a “lean gains” approach, and manages to add 160lbs to the bar (for squats) over the course of a year. The increase of muscle mass enables him to lift that additional 160lbs while getting up to a bodyweight of 190lbs. The net increase in weight lifted is right around 180lbs (160 on the bar, 20 on the body).

And you have another 170lb lifter who pushes himself every session but follows a “not so lean gains” approach and puts on, I dunno, 80lbs of muscle/fat. I don’t really see how he would be able to add much more than 100lbs to the bar over the year… for a net increase of 180lbs lifted.

The net increase for both lifters should be right around the same; the muscle added should be right around the same. Right?

257

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
I don’t contest the idea of 'diminishing returns’and I am not advocating getting sloppy. If a lifter is training properly, managing their macros, and maintaining their conditioning during the surplus period, many would find it difficult to reach the 10-15% of additional weight I do recommend.
[/quote]

If I’m understanding you correctly… if I want to weigh 190lbs in relatively lean condition, you suggest working up to somewhere in the 209-219 range before beginning a deficit to reach 190?

258

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Does have to be at the the same level of Leanness when the inch is measured? If not then bulk up arms will go up and inch because of fat and glycogen you will lose definition but hey your arm will be “bigger”[/quote]

This is not the response I’m looking for.[/quote]

Sorry I can’t tell you what you want to hear

259

[quote]cmarz wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
While “lean bulking” seems to be the general forum sentiment these days, the traditional “bulk and cut” approach has been used successfully by decades of bodybuilders as well as just general physique enthusiasts.

I don’t want to have a discussion of pros or cons of bulking. There’s been hundreds of threads over the years.

I’m interested in a “how to”. Diet, training, other lifestyle changes, etc.[/quote]
I’ve done it this way with success: 4-6 weeks calorie surplus (about 500-750 calories additionally), then a 2 week switch to below maintanence calories (about 500 calories). I also employ a carb rotation of 2 high days, 2 low and 3 medium days of carbs. Protein and fat are the same throughout the weeks. [/quote]

Pretty interested to hear more on this. Starting weight/measurements and after? Planning on doing something similar when i finish up dieting down.

260

LoRez, I think it has more to do with how much work you want to do after a dirty bulk and a clean bulk. I dieted for thirty weeks because I had to do a web series in which they wanted me to play a big guy. I did it, and it looked impressive on camera, but damn I hated dropping allllll that weight.