[quote]byukid wrote:
Hm, you know, there’s clearly got to be one best way to raise a child that applies to everyone everywhere in every circumstance for every child. [/quote]
Bull whip!
[quote]Christine wrote:
Are you really that dense or is this some sort of attempt at humor?[/quote]
Humor. Notice that I declared that I was going to play Devil’s Advocate, so that no one would take what I write as my personal opinion.
I think I agree with the assertion that a “reasonable” spanking will likely be an ineffective deterrent. Corporal punishment may be an effective means of modifying behaviour. However it seems to me that in order for this to be the case, one would need to be willing to take it beyond what we would consider reasonable in our society (i.e. flogging/caning perhaps). It requires that one instills a measure of fear, I think.
When I was 3 or 4 my parents spanked me. Once. Because they were not prepared to truly hurt me, I laughed and went about my buisness. I don’t believe that this reinforced their authority. BTW, they tried soap as well. Once. I started taking big bites out of the bar, chewing and swallowing until they stopped me. I was pretty ill afterward.
The problem, as I see it, is that spanking is based on the premise that whoever possesses superior mechanical power AND is prepared to USE that power is the authority. This is not a guiding principle of our society (at least not one we aspire to). Furthermore, unless you completely subjugate your child to your will early on, how long until you can no longer reasonably assert that superior power?
I don’t know the answers. I was a willful, obstinate little bugger with a kamikaze approach to being disciplined. I would sooner sit in an empty room, with all my toys confiscated and zero privileges than be told what to do. I can only assume that I would also have preferred to endure all but the most severe beatings as well. Fortunately my parents had the sense not to start down that road.
I can only hope (and boy, do I HOPE) that my daughter and any subsequent children we have are more reasonable human beings than I was. All in all, I don’t really believe that anyone can make anyone do anything, especially when they’re not watching and/or can no longer physically force the other person to comply.
Looking forward to the teen years…
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Trust me, he’s that dense. It was a complete reading comprehension fail on his part. I’ll warn you now, given that his bible states something along the lines of spare the rod, spoil the child, and that he believes the bible is the unerring word of his almighty, you will find his position on this matter quite irreversible. There is no discussion to be had here with him on matters where religion can be invoked. He will not even admit he interpreted the article incorrectly. [/quote]
“Spare the rod, spoil the child” isn’t in the Bible. It’s an idiom that is taken out of context usually by fundamentalist to mean that you should beat your child, and sometimes at very young ages lest you raise a bad child. This goes along with the idea that you have to break a child’s will in order for them to “follow the Lord.”
Neither part of that view do I hold. Though the idiom “spare the rod, spoil the child,” I do particularly hold in its correct context. The rod was a form of punishment to the time that it was written, though I suppose you could use a rod I doubt its effectiveness.
Mostly because it is pretty damn hard to carry around a rod all the time. A hand is better (sparingly) and other forms of punishment are preferable (negative punishment and positive punishment can be argued somewhere else, but I’m not equipped to argue the merits and the best form of punishment, I do the best I can). Though I personally use negative punishment or “time out” with the little ones.
Thanks, though, for answering for me BG.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Nah, I give him benefit of doubt, as he was playing devils advocate. There just wasn’t much to play with.
[/quote]
Thanks.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…
and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.
Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word. [/quote]
I’ve absolutely answered your questions. I think you just don’t like the answers.
Let me try it another way.
I believe spanking works because it brings about a desired effect in my methodology of punishment and correction, with out leaving lasting damage according to books I’ve read, seminars I’ve attended and personal experience.
How does spanking make me feel emotionally? If done in a methodical, objective manner I feel fine. Knowing it is for the greater good of my son, I feel good about being a good parent. When I lost my cool and spanked out of anger, I felt horrible. It was not appropriate at all, it was also completely different because of circumstance, context and intent, even if the action is the same.
These are the two questions you have asked. They’ve been answered in context and here are the answers alone. [/quote]
But based on your own words, the “desired effect” is temporary at best as evidenced that he still requires spankings. So how do you define “effective”?
Based on your own words, you admit you need to go “cool down” before you spank.
What books have you read about this?
Which “seminars” did you attend? Church?[/quote]
Again it is effective in that it does establish and enforce my authority when reason does not. I don’t believe spanking, deprivation or isolation are permanently effective by themselves.
They are tools used to cause a kid to reflect on whatever issue is at hand. If one doesn’t work another may, as dollarbill mentioned. I want my son to think about our conversations, and the fear of a spanking, as mentioned, more often than not keeps him in his seat, effectively bored and thinking, my goal. It is not effective as a be all, end all lesson and form of correction. I have not found anything that is. To use DB’s analogy again, sometimes I drive a ball much further than others but the driver is way more effective than a 7 iron off the tee every time.
Yes, I cool down. By the time I put him in time out I’m mad, same as spanking. I don’t want to spank him mad. Conveying anger in a physical way is not the intent. A spanking is a deterrent and nothing else.
I’ll have to dig up titles but James Dobson was the author.
A parenting seminar and class was/is conducted at 1st Baptist Church in Houston. I should note that I’m not a very religious guy but I do believe in Christianity. I do want to instill this belief in my son and I do draw parenting advice from religious leaders and organizations I respect. A personal issue I wrestle with currently is the fact I know I need to start walking the walk for my son’s benefit but that is another thread altogether.
I know you don’t like long answers but I’ve answered your questions directly. I like context, it gives answers better and fuller meaning. I don’t categorize and see as black and white as you, there is a huge swath of grey area in parenting and spanking in particular.
[/quote]
I never said anything is “black and white”. I shared my opinions and feelings.
You’re still grasping when I ask you about effectiveness. If it’s “effective”, there should be little to no repeat behavior. Sounds like time outs, followed by occassional spankings is the routine in your house. If a spanking is a “deterrent” why then do you have to repeat it?
Sounds to me like the line of questioning (and evasive answers) in a Few Good Men…if your orders are always followed, why did he need to be transferred off base? Why did he require protection?
Lookit…I’m smart enough that I’m not seeking agreement with you. I was hoping however that you might pause and think before you answer. Perhaps you need a spanking and a time out, to reflect…then we can talk.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Trust me, he’s that dense. It was a complete reading comprehension fail on his part. I’ll warn you now, given that his bible states something along the lines of spare the rod, spoil the child, and that he believes the bible is the unerring word of his almighty, you will find his position on this matter quite irreversible. There is no discussion to be had here with him on matters where religion can be invoked. He will not even admit he interpreted the article incorrectly. [/quote]
“Spare the rod, spoil the child” isn’t in the Bible. It’s an idiom that is taken out of context usually by fundamentalist to mean that you should beat your child, and sometimes at very young ages lest you raise a bad child. This goes along with the idea that you have to break a child’s will in order for them to “follow the Lord.”
Neither part of that view do I hold. Though the idiom “spare the rod, spoil the child,” I do particularly hold in its correct context. The rod was a form of punishment to the time that it was written, though I suppose you could use a rod I doubt its effectiveness.
Mostly because it is pretty damn hard to carry around a rod all the time. A hand is better (sparingly) and other forms of punishment are preferable (negative punishment and positive punishment can be argued somewhere else, but I’m not equipped to argue the merits and the best form of punishment, I do the best I can). Though I personally use negative punishment or “time out” with the little ones.
Thanks, though, for answering for me BG.[/quote]
You’re welcome. I’m here for you buddy.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
Hm, you know, there’s clearly got to be one best way to raise a child that applies to everyone everywhere in every circumstance for every child. [/quote]
So true.
In golf, you have a bag full of clubs. You can’t use only one club all the time and expect good results. Likewise, there may be one club you only use on rare occasions, but you keep it in the bag “just in case”.
To me, raising kids is like playing golf. You have all of these different forms of discipline and encouragement that you can choose from. It may be very appropriate to use a certain form of discipline, such as a time-out, in one instance, while it is completely inappropriate in others. Same as with taking away a privilege. On the flip side, you may get a lot of mileage using a system of rewards to motivate your kid. Guess, what, chances are one day, out of the blue, it won’t work, and you will scratch your head and say “huh, this always worked before.”
Throw a couple more kids into the mix and theories and explanations and rationality are useless. Every kid is different and every kid changes and adapts based on internal and external forces. Humans are dynamic animals and human relationships are even more complex.
I think the best parents have a multitude of “clubs” at their disposal and have the experience to know which club to use when and know how to use it.
And no parent is “always right”.
DB
[/quote]
Meh. I don’t think we’re as dynamic or complex as you’d like to think. We’re pretty damn predictable for the most part and fall into “types”. I don’t disagree with the tools in the toolbox analogy (“club”? really? was that purposeful lol?) but we’ve reached a point where we’re discussing whether that one “club” is really effective. And moreover, we’re exploring (hopefully honestly) the emotions behind picking up and swinging that “club”.
Are you a parent?[/quote]
I have a 13 year old boy, and 10 and 8 year old girls. One of my kids is on the autism spectrum. Suffice to say, some days, it is very difficult to be a parent.
DB
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
Hm, you know, there’s clearly got to be one best way to raise a child that applies to everyone everywhere in every circumstance for every child. [/quote]
So true.
In golf, you have a bag full of clubs. You can’t use only one club all the time and expect good results. Likewise, there may be one club you only use on rare occasions, but you keep it in the bag “just in case”.
To me, raising kids is like playing golf. You have all of these different forms of discipline and encouragement that you can choose from. It may be very appropriate to use a certain form of discipline, such as a time-out, in one instance, while it is completely inappropriate in others. Same as with taking away a privilege. On the flip side, you may get a lot of mileage using a system of rewards to motivate your kid. Guess, what, chances are one day, out of the blue, it won’t work, and you will scratch your head and say “huh, this always worked before.”
Throw a couple more kids into the mix and theories and explanations and rationality are useless. Every kid is different and every kid changes and adapts based on internal and external forces. Humans are dynamic animals and human relationships are even more complex.
I think the best parents have a multitude of “clubs” at their disposal and have the experience to know which club to use when and know how to use it.
And no parent is “always right”.
DB
[/quote]
Meh. I don’t think we’re as dynamic or complex as you’d like to think. We’re pretty damn predictable for the most part and fall into “types”. I don’t disagree with the tools in the toolbox analogy (“club”? really? was that purposeful lol?) but we’ve reached a point where we’re discussing whether that one “club” is really effective. And moreover, we’re exploring (hopefully honestly) the emotions behind picking up and swinging that “club”.
Are you a parent?[/quote]
I have a 13 year old boy, and 10 and 8 year old girls. One of my kids is on the autism spectrum. Suffice to say, some days, it is very difficult to be a parent.
DB[/quote]
tell me about it 
but i wouldn’t change a thing. and i’m sure you wouldn’t either.
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
Hm, you know, there’s clearly got to be one best way to raise a child that applies to everyone everywhere in every circumstance for every child. [/quote]
So true.
In golf, you have a bag full of clubs. You can’t use only one club all the time and expect good results. Likewise, there may be one club you only use on rare occasions, but you keep it in the bag “just in case”.
To me, raising kids is like playing golf. You have all of these different forms of discipline and encouragement that you can choose from. It may be very appropriate to use a certain form of discipline, such as a time-out, in one instance, while it is completely inappropriate in others. Same as with taking away a privilege. On the flip side, you may get a lot of mileage using a system of rewards to motivate your kid. Guess, what, chances are one day, out of the blue, it won’t work, and you will scratch your head and say “huh, this always worked before.”
Throw a couple more kids into the mix and theories and explanations and rationality are useless. Every kid is different and every kid changes and adapts based on internal and external forces. Humans are dynamic animals and human relationships are even more complex.
I think the best parents have a multitude of “clubs” at their disposal and have the experience to know which club to use when and know how to use it.
And no parent is “always right”.
DB
[/quote]
Meh. I don’t think we’re as dynamic or complex as you’d like to think. We’re pretty damn predictable for the most part and fall into “types”. I don’t disagree with the tools in the toolbox analogy (“club”? really? was that purposeful lol?) but we’ve reached a point where we’re discussing whether that one “club” is really effective. And moreover, we’re exploring (hopefully honestly) the emotions behind picking up and swinging that “club”.
Are you a parent?[/quote]
I have a 13 year old boy, and 10 and 8 year old girls. One of my kids is on the autism spectrum. Suffice to say, some days, it is very difficult to be a parent.
And while I agree that people have tendencies towards certain behaviors, but I disagree with your opinion that people aren’t dynamic. I’m not arguing with you, just disagreeing.
DB[/quote]
I’ll admit my dad was rough and pretty damn strict. We do not have the greatest relationship now that i’m grown up. I always tell myself if i’m going to have a son, I want us to be super tight when we both get older.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…
and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.
Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word. [/quote]
I’ve absolutely answered your questions. I think you just don’t like the answers.
Let me try it another way.
I believe spanking works because it brings about a desired effect in my methodology of punishment and correction, with out leaving lasting damage according to books I’ve read, seminars I’ve attended and personal experience.
How does spanking make me feel emotionally? If done in a methodical, objective manner I feel fine. Knowing it is for the greater good of my son, I feel good about being a good parent. When I lost my cool and spanked out of anger, I felt horrible. It was not appropriate at all, it was also completely different because of circumstance, context and intent, even if the action is the same.
These are the two questions you have asked. They’ve been answered in context and here are the answers alone. [/quote]
But based on your own words, the “desired effect” is temporary at best as evidenced that he still requires spankings. So how do you define “effective”?
Based on your own words, you admit you need to go “cool down” before you spank.
What books have you read about this?
Which “seminars” did you attend? Church?[/quote]
Again it is effective in that it does establish and enforce my authority when reason does not. I don’t believe spanking, deprivation or isolation are permanently effective by themselves.
They are tools used to cause a kid to reflect on whatever issue is at hand. If one doesn’t work another may, as dollarbill mentioned. I want my son to think about our conversations, and the fear of a spanking, as mentioned, more often than not keeps him in his seat, effectively bored and thinking, my goal. It is not effective as a be all, end all lesson and form of correction. I have not found anything that is. To use DB’s analogy again, sometimes I drive a ball much further than others but the driver is way more effective than a 7 iron off the tee every time.
Yes, I cool down. By the time I put him in time out I’m mad, same as spanking. I don’t want to spank him mad. Conveying anger in a physical way is not the intent. A spanking is a deterrent and nothing else.
I’ll have to dig up titles but James Dobson was the author.
A parenting seminar and class was/is conducted at 1st Baptist Church in Houston. I should note that I’m not a very religious guy but I do believe in Christianity. I do want to instill this belief in my son and I do draw parenting advice from religious leaders and organizations I respect. A personal issue I wrestle with currently is the fact I know I need to start walking the walk for my son’s benefit but that is another thread altogether.
I know you don’t like long answers but I’ve answered your questions directly. I like context, it gives answers better and fuller meaning. I don’t categorize and see as black and white as you, there is a huge swath of grey area in parenting and spanking in particular.
[/quote]
I never said anything is “black and white”. I shared my opinions and feelings.
You’re still grasping when I ask you about effectiveness. If it’s “effective”, there should be little to no repeat behavior. Sounds like time outs, followed by occassional spankings is the routine in your house. If a spanking is a “deterrent” why then do you have to repeat it?
Sounds to me like the line of questioning (and evasive answers) in a Few Good Men…if your orders are always followed, why did he need to be transferred off base? Why did he require protection?
Lookit…I’m smart enough that I’m not seeking agreement with you. I was hoping however that you might pause and think before you answer. Perhaps you need a spanking and a time out, to reflect…then we can talk. [/quote] The effect I’m looking for is to reinforce authority. This effect is achieved often (relatively speaking). He has learned and internalized many lessons, the long term efficacy of spankings could be built in to a probability ratio allowing us to genuinly discuss the efficiency of spankings but I don’t have the time or desire to do that here. You are looking for absolute efficiency which will always be impossible, no extra thinking required. Scarecrows are deterrents too but they have to be kept up and managed to remain effective. Just because an absolute isn’t attainable doesn’t mean I’m giving evasive answers. There are just no black and white absolutes here. I don’t mind agreement when warranted, I disagree and so do you. Throw some other topics out, we will find something to agree on. What is your fave ice cream? Do you like cheese on your burger? Fave color?
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:The effect I’m looking for is to reinforce authority. This effect is achieved often (relatively speaking). He has learned and internalized many lessons, the long term efficacy of spankings could be built in to a probability ratio allowing us to genuinly discuss the efficiency of spankings but I don’t have the time or desire to do that here.
[/quote]
…and it’s been done over and over in behavioral science. The efficiency of punishment in reducing unwanted behaviors over time (as opposed to a single event) is fairly poor. They just try not to get caught.
I’m sure your kid knows you care, and that’s worth plenty no matter what parenting style you choose.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…
and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.
Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word. [/quote]
I’ve absolutely answered your questions. I think you just don’t like the answers.
Let me try it another way.
I believe spanking works because it brings about a desired effect in my methodology of punishment and correction, with out leaving lasting damage according to books I’ve read, seminars I’ve attended and personal experience.
How does spanking make me feel emotionally? If done in a methodical, objective manner I feel fine. Knowing it is for the greater good of my son, I feel good about being a good parent. When I lost my cool and spanked out of anger, I felt horrible. It was not appropriate at all, it was also completely different because of circumstance, context and intent, even if the action is the same.
These are the two questions you have asked. They’ve been answered in context and here are the answers alone. [/quote]
But based on your own words, the “desired effect” is temporary at best as evidenced that he still requires spankings. So how do you define “effective”?
Based on your own words, you admit you need to go “cool down” before you spank.
What books have you read about this?
Which “seminars” did you attend? Church?[/quote]
Again it is effective in that it does establish and enforce my authority when reason does not. I don’t believe spanking, deprivation or isolation are permanently effective by themselves.
They are tools used to cause a kid to reflect on whatever issue is at hand. If one doesn’t work another may, as dollarbill mentioned. I want my son to think about our conversations, and the fear of a spanking, as mentioned, more often than not keeps him in his seat, effectively bored and thinking, my goal. It is not effective as a be all, end all lesson and form of correction. I have not found anything that is. To use DB’s analogy again, sometimes I drive a ball much further than others but the driver is way more effective than a 7 iron off the tee every time.
Yes, I cool down. By the time I put him in time out I’m mad, same as spanking. I don’t want to spank him mad. Conveying anger in a physical way is not the intent. A spanking is a deterrent and nothing else.
I’ll have to dig up titles but James Dobson was the author.
A parenting seminar and class was/is conducted at 1st Baptist Church in Houston. I should note that I’m not a very religious guy but I do believe in Christianity. I do want to instill this belief in my son and I do draw parenting advice from religious leaders and organizations I respect. A personal issue I wrestle with currently is the fact I know I need to start walking the walk for my son’s benefit but that is another thread altogether.
I know you don’t like long answers but I’ve answered your questions directly. I like context, it gives answers better and fuller meaning. I don’t categorize and see as black and white as you, there is a huge swath of grey area in parenting and spanking in particular.
[/quote]
I never said anything is “black and white”. I shared my opinions and feelings.
You’re still grasping when I ask you about effectiveness. If it’s “effective”, there should be little to no repeat behavior. Sounds like time outs, followed by occassional spankings is the routine in your house. If a spanking is a “deterrent” why then do you have to repeat it?
Sounds to me like the line of questioning (and evasive answers) in a Few Good Men…if your orders are always followed, why did he need to be transferred off base? Why did he require protection?
Lookit…I’m smart enough that I’m not seeking agreement with you. I was hoping however that you might pause and think before you answer. Perhaps you need a spanking and a time out, to reflect…then we can talk. [/quote] The effect I’m looking for is to reinforce authority. This effect is achieved often (relatively speaking). He has learned and internalized many lessons, the long term efficacy of spankings could be built in to a probability ratio allowing us to genuinly discuss the efficiency of spankings but I don’t have the time or desire to do that here. You are looking for absolute efficiency which will always be impossible, no extra thinking required. Scarecrows are deterrents too but they have to be kept up and managed to remain effective. Just because an absolute isn’t attainable doesn’t mean I’m giving evasive answers. There are just no black and white absolutes here. I don’t mind agreement when warranted, I disagree and so do you. Throw some other topics out, we will find something to agree on. What is your fave ice cream? Do you like cheese on your burger? Fave color?
[/quote]
You’re merely biased to your opinion no matter how irrational your arguments. And they are quite irrational. Try reading all your replies. Want some insight into sales? Read your replies, and consider people’s biases among other things.
By your own words, we have established that your spankings are NOT effective and are not a deterrent. Suggesting I’m looking for 100% compliance is the strawman.
So let me get this straight; now you’re arguing he’s internalized many lessons b/c of spankings? or because you care enough to communicate with him? You’re all over the place.
Reinforce authority? You need to spank your child to reinforce authority? LOL how old is the lil guy?
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…
and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.
Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word. [/quote]
I’ve absolutely answered your questions. I think you just don’t like the answers.
Let me try it another way.
I believe spanking works because it brings about a desired effect in my methodology of punishment and correction, with out leaving lasting damage according to books I’ve read, seminars I’ve attended and personal experience.
How does spanking make me feel emotionally? If done in a methodical, objective manner I feel fine. Knowing it is for the greater good of my son, I feel good about being a good parent. When I lost my cool and spanked out of anger, I felt horrible. It was not appropriate at all, it was also completely different because of circumstance, context and intent, even if the action is the same.
These are the two questions you have asked. They’ve been answered in context and here are the answers alone. [/quote]
But based on your own words, the “desired effect” is temporary at best as evidenced that he still requires spankings. So how do you define “effective”?
Based on your own words, you admit you need to go “cool down” before you spank.
What books have you read about this?
Which “seminars” did you attend? Church?[/quote]
Again it is effective in that it does establish and enforce my authority when reason does not. I don’t believe spanking, deprivation or isolation are permanently effective by themselves.
They are tools used to cause a kid to reflect on whatever issue is at hand. If one doesn’t work another may, as dollarbill mentioned. I want my son to think about our conversations, and the fear of a spanking, as mentioned, more often than not keeps him in his seat, effectively bored and thinking, my goal. It is not effective as a be all, end all lesson and form of correction. I have not found anything that is. To use DB’s analogy again, sometimes I drive a ball much further than others but the driver is way more effective than a 7 iron off the tee every time.
Yes, I cool down. By the time I put him in time out I’m mad, same as spanking. I don’t want to spank him mad. Conveying anger in a physical way is not the intent. A spanking is a deterrent and nothing else.
I’ll have to dig up titles but James Dobson was the author.
A parenting seminar and class was/is conducted at 1st Baptist Church in Houston. I should note that I’m not a very religious guy but I do believe in Christianity. I do want to instill this belief in my son and I do draw parenting advice from religious leaders and organizations I respect. A personal issue I wrestle with currently is the fact I know I need to start walking the walk for my son’s benefit but that is another thread altogether.
I know you don’t like long answers but I’ve answered your questions directly. I like context, it gives answers better and fuller meaning. I don’t categorize and see as black and white as you, there is a huge swath of grey area in parenting and spanking in particular.
[/quote]
I never said anything is “black and white”. I shared my opinions and feelings.
You’re still grasping when I ask you about effectiveness. If it’s “effective”, there should be little to no repeat behavior. Sounds like time outs, followed by occassional spankings is the routine in your house. If a spanking is a “deterrent” why then do you have to repeat it?
Sounds to me like the line of questioning (and evasive answers) in a Few Good Men…if your orders are always followed, why did he need to be transferred off base? Why did he require protection?
Lookit…I’m smart enough that I’m not seeking agreement with you. I was hoping however that you might pause and think before you answer. Perhaps you need a spanking and a time out, to reflect…then we can talk. [/quote] The effect I’m looking for is to reinforce authority. This effect is achieved often (relatively speaking). He has learned and internalized many lessons, the long term efficacy of spankings could be built in to a probability ratio allowing us to genuinly discuss the efficiency of spankings but I don’t have the time or desire to do that here. You are looking for absolute efficiency which will always be impossible, no extra thinking required. Scarecrows are deterrents too but they have to be kept up and managed to remain effective. Just because an absolute isn’t attainable doesn’t mean I’m giving evasive answers. There are just no black and white absolutes here. I don’t mind agreement when warranted, I disagree and so do you. Throw some other topics out, we will find something to agree on. What is your fave ice cream? Do you like cheese on your burger? Fave color?
[/quote]
You’re merely biased to your opinion no matter how irrational your arguments. And they are quite irrational. Try reading all your replies. Want some insight into sales? Read your replies, and consider people’s biases among other things.
By your own words, we have established that your spankings are NOT effective and are not a deterrent. Suggesting I’m looking for 100% compliance is the strawman.
So let me get this straight; now you’re arguing he’s internalized many lessons b/c of spankings? or because you care enough to communicate with him? You’re all over the place.
Reinforce authority? You need to spank your child to reinforce authority? LOL how old is the lil guy?
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES! :)[/quote]
Spankings keep him in time out when other methods fail. Time out allows him to think about the conversations we have. He doesn’t always require a spanking, but when he does it effectively keeps him in time out and the fear of a spanking works every other time so there is your 100% efficiency. It does deter him from leaving early whether it’s a fearful thought or a physical action that comes to pass.
Nothing irrational about it at all, no strawman, connect the dots BG I know you can do it. You are excellent at drawing assumptive conclusions when they support your argument, you can do it the other way around too if you want to honest here in your serious conversation.
We can agree to disagree here. I believe spanking is an effective tool, you do not. I won’t hold that against you.
It was a fun conversation though, for what it’s worth you did make me re-visit the thinking behind my already decided upon method of parenting but I still agree with my original conclusion to include spanking as a tool.
I don’t see a point in continuing. We can have an arbitrary back and forth debate somewhere else but I’m not turning my son, or yours, in to that conversation here.
I’ll ignore your “reinforce authority” barb. I know your kid challenges you, all kids do so I’ll assume that was a joke given a lack of voice inflection and body language to read online.
However, I will assume you use a reward system along with punishment with your son?
I do, and I try to be careful to make it relevent to real world situations while being careful to keep rewards from becoming blackmail. What are some methods and situations where you have found rewards to be helpful?
[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:The effect I’m looking for is to reinforce authority. This effect is achieved often (relatively speaking). He has learned and internalized many lessons, the long term efficacy of spankings could be built in to a probability ratio allowing us to genuinly discuss the efficiency of spankings but I don’t have the time or desire to do that here.
[/quote]
…and it’s been done over and over in behavioral science. The efficiency of punishment in reducing unwanted behaviors over time (as opposed to a single event) is fairly poor. They just try not to get caught.
I’m sure your kid knows you care, and that’s worth plenty no matter what parenting style you choose.[/quote]
And this goes for all punishment. He’s not going to run around like a wild animal and, as stated, if spanking keeps him in his seat to think about the loving conversation we had so be it. The conversations hold my parental value, unfortunately discipline is sometimes needed to make him an audience.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…
and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.
Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word. [/quote]
I’ve absolutely answered your questions. I think you just don’t like the answers.
Let me try it another way.
I believe spanking works because it brings about a desired effect in my methodology of punishment and correction, with out leaving lasting damage according to books I’ve read, seminars I’ve attended and personal experience.
How does spanking make me feel emotionally? If done in a methodical, objective manner I feel fine. Knowing it is for the greater good of my son, I feel good about being a good parent. When I lost my cool and spanked out of anger, I felt horrible. It was not appropriate at all, it was also completely different because of circumstance, context and intent, even if the action is the same.
These are the two questions you have asked. They’ve been answered in context and here are the answers alone. [/quote]
But based on your own words, the “desired effect” is temporary at best as evidenced that he still requires spankings. So how do you define “effective”?
Based on your own words, you admit you need to go “cool down” before you spank.
What books have you read about this?
Which “seminars” did you attend? Church?[/quote]
Again it is effective in that it does establish and enforce my authority when reason does not. I don’t believe spanking, deprivation or isolation are permanently effective by themselves.
They are tools used to cause a kid to reflect on whatever issue is at hand. If one doesn’t work another may, as dollarbill mentioned. I want my son to think about our conversations, and the fear of a spanking, as mentioned, more often than not keeps him in his seat, effectively bored and thinking, my goal. It is not effective as a be all, end all lesson and form of correction. I have not found anything that is. To use DB’s analogy again, sometimes I drive a ball much further than others but the driver is way more effective than a 7 iron off the tee every time.
Yes, I cool down. By the time I put him in time out I’m mad, same as spanking. I don’t want to spank him mad. Conveying anger in a physical way is not the intent. A spanking is a deterrent and nothing else.
I’ll have to dig up titles but James Dobson was the author.
A parenting seminar and class was/is conducted at 1st Baptist Church in Houston. I should note that I’m not a very religious guy but I do believe in Christianity. I do want to instill this belief in my son and I do draw parenting advice from religious leaders and organizations I respect. A personal issue I wrestle with currently is the fact I know I need to start walking the walk for my son’s benefit but that is another thread altogether.
I know you don’t like long answers but I’ve answered your questions directly. I like context, it gives answers better and fuller meaning. I don’t categorize and see as black and white as you, there is a huge swath of grey area in parenting and spanking in particular.
[/quote]
I never said anything is “black and white”. I shared my opinions and feelings.
You’re still grasping when I ask you about effectiveness. If it’s “effective”, there should be little to no repeat behavior. Sounds like time outs, followed by occassional spankings is the routine in your house. If a spanking is a “deterrent” why then do you have to repeat it?
Sounds to me like the line of questioning (and evasive answers) in a Few Good Men…if your orders are always followed, why did he need to be transferred off base? Why did he require protection?
Lookit…I’m smart enough that I’m not seeking agreement with you. I was hoping however that you might pause and think before you answer. Perhaps you need a spanking and a time out, to reflect…then we can talk. [/quote] The effect I’m looking for is to reinforce authority. This effect is achieved often (relatively speaking). He has learned and internalized many lessons, the long term efficacy of spankings could be built in to a probability ratio allowing us to genuinly discuss the efficiency of spankings but I don’t have the time or desire to do that here. You are looking for absolute efficiency which will always be impossible, no extra thinking required. Scarecrows are deterrents too but they have to be kept up and managed to remain effective. Just because an absolute isn’t attainable doesn’t mean I’m giving evasive answers. There are just no black and white absolutes here. I don’t mind agreement when warranted, I disagree and so do you. Throw some other topics out, we will find something to agree on. What is your fave ice cream? Do you like cheese on your burger? Fave color?
[/quote]
You’re merely biased to your opinion no matter how irrational your arguments. And they are quite irrational. Try reading all your replies. Want some insight into sales? Read your replies, and consider people’s biases among other things.
By your own words, we have established that your spankings are NOT effective and are not a deterrent. Suggesting I’m looking for 100% compliance is the strawman.
So let me get this straight; now you’re arguing he’s internalized many lessons b/c of spankings? or because you care enough to communicate with him? You’re all over the place.
Reinforce authority? You need to spank your child to reinforce authority? LOL how old is the lil guy?
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES! :)[/quote]
Spankings keep him in time out when other methods fail. Time out allows him to think about the conversations we have. He doesn’t always require a spanking, but when he does it effectively keeps him in time out and the fear of a spanking works every other time so there is your 100% efficiency. It does deter him from leaving early whether it’s a fearful thought or a physical action that comes to pass.
Nothing irrational about it at all, no strawman, connect the dots BG I know you can do it. You are excellent at drawing assumptive conclusions when they support your argument, you can do it the other way around too if you want to honest here in your serious conversation.
We can agree to disagree here. I believe spanking is an effective tool, you do not. I won’t hold that against you.
It was a fun conversation though, for what it’s worth you did make me re-visit the thinking behind my already decided upon method of parenting but I still agree with my original conclusion to include spanking as a tool.
I don’t see a point in continuing. We can have an arbitrary back and forth debate somewhere else but I’m not turning my son, or yours, in to that conversation here.
I’ll ignore your “reinforce authority” barb. I know your kid challenges you, all kids do so I’ll assume that was a joke given a lack of voice inflection and body language to read online.
However, I will assume you use a reward system along with punishment with your son?
I do, and I try to be careful to make it relevent to real world situations while being careful to keep rewards from becoming blackmail. What are some methods and situations where you have found rewards to be helpful?
[/quote]
So you spank him JUST to keep him in time-out?
The fear of spanking keeps him in time out “every other time” and you conclude it’s effective or efficient?
Who isn’t connecting the dots here? Am I being presumptive or, are you all over the place?
We agree to disagree.
There is no point to continuing. There never was one really. I understand the power of bias among other things at play here.
The reinforce authority comment was not a barb. My authority is challenged probably every single day in some manner or other. I don’t need physical correction to “enforce” it to a 5 year old. That was my point, not a barb.
I don’t generally do “reward systems” - I don’t “negotiate with terrorists”. I don’t like bribery in return for correct behavior so as a general rule, I do not engage in this form of “parenting”.
The only methods I’m SURE is effective, and beyond debate, are plenty of love, communication, guidance, patience and consistency. There is no intelligent debate about those parenting “methods”. There is however plenty of intelligent rebuttal to spanking.
But I’m wondering one last thing; you said (now) you only spank to keep him in time-out. you stated prior that you go “cool down” before spanking. I’m having trouble grokking the temporal relationship between time-outs, your cool down and the actual spanking in your home.
For me it comes down to this; There is plenty of scholarship against spanking. When combined with the fact that spanking is often done out of anger or frustration, it makes it a stupid simple decision for me to take that “tool” out of the tool box. Spanking is actually the EASIEST method to apply, so my path will become more difficult. I’ll just accept the challenge to be a better parent.
But yes, agree to disagree. That was apparent pages ago.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…
and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.
Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word. [/quote]
I’ve absolutely answered your questions. I think you just don’t like the answers.
Let me try it another way.
I believe spanking works because it brings about a desired effect in my methodology of punishment and correction, with out leaving lasting damage according to books I’ve read, seminars I’ve attended and personal experience.
How does spanking make me feel emotionally? If done in a methodical, objective manner I feel fine. Knowing it is for the greater good of my son, I feel good about being a good parent. When I lost my cool and spanked out of anger, I felt horrible. It was not appropriate at all, it was also completely different because of circumstance, context and intent, even if the action is the same.
These are the two questions you have asked. They’ve been answered in context and here are the answers alone. [/quote]
But based on your own words, the “desired effect” is temporary at best as evidenced that he still requires spankings. So how do you define “effective”?
Based on your own words, you admit you need to go “cool down” before you spank.
What books have you read about this?
Which “seminars” did you attend? Church?[/quote]
Again it is effective in that it does establish and enforce my authority when reason does not. I don’t believe spanking, deprivation or isolation are permanently effective by themselves.
They are tools used to cause a kid to reflect on whatever issue is at hand. If one doesn’t work another may, as dollarbill mentioned. I want my son to think about our conversations, and the fear of a spanking, as mentioned, more often than not keeps him in his seat, effectively bored and thinking, my goal. It is not effective as a be all, end all lesson and form of correction. I have not found anything that is. To use DB’s analogy again, sometimes I drive a ball much further than others but the driver is way more effective than a 7 iron off the tee every time.
Yes, I cool down. By the time I put him in time out I’m mad, same as spanking. I don’t want to spank him mad. Conveying anger in a physical way is not the intent. A spanking is a deterrent and nothing else.
I’ll have to dig up titles but James Dobson was the author.
A parenting seminar and class was/is conducted at 1st Baptist Church in Houston. I should note that I’m not a very religious guy but I do believe in Christianity. I do want to instill this belief in my son and I do draw parenting advice from religious leaders and organizations I respect. A personal issue I wrestle with currently is the fact I know I need to start walking the walk for my son’s benefit but that is another thread altogether.
I know you don’t like long answers but I’ve answered your questions directly. I like context, it gives answers better and fuller meaning. I don’t categorize and see as black and white as you, there is a huge swath of grey area in parenting and spanking in particular.
[/quote]
I never said anything is “black and white”. I shared my opinions and feelings.
You’re still grasping when I ask you about effectiveness. If it’s “effective”, there should be little to no repeat behavior. Sounds like time outs, followed by occassional spankings is the routine in your house. If a spanking is a “deterrent” why then do you have to repeat it?
Sounds to me like the line of questioning (and evasive answers) in a Few Good Men…if your orders are always followed, why did he need to be transferred off base? Why did he require protection?
Lookit…I’m smart enough that I’m not seeking agreement with you. I was hoping however that you might pause and think before you answer. Perhaps you need a spanking and a time out, to reflect…then we can talk. [/quote] The effect I’m looking for is to reinforce authority. This effect is achieved often (relatively speaking). He has learned and internalized many lessons, the long term efficacy of spankings could be built in to a probability ratio allowing us to genuinly discuss the efficiency of spankings but I don’t have the time or desire to do that here. You are looking for absolute efficiency which will always be impossible, no extra thinking required. Scarecrows are deterrents too but they have to be kept up and managed to remain effective. Just because an absolute isn’t attainable doesn’t mean I’m giving evasive answers. There are just no black and white absolutes here. I don’t mind agreement when warranted, I disagree and so do you. Throw some other topics out, we will find something to agree on. What is your fave ice cream? Do you like cheese on your burger? Fave color?
[/quote]
You’re merely biased to your opinion no matter how irrational your arguments. And they are quite irrational. Try reading all your replies. Want some insight into sales? Read your replies, and consider people’s biases among other things.
By your own words, we have established that your spankings are NOT effective and are not a deterrent. Suggesting I’m looking for 100% compliance is the strawman.
So let me get this straight; now you’re arguing he’s internalized many lessons b/c of spankings? or because you care enough to communicate with him? You’re all over the place.
Reinforce authority? You need to spank your child to reinforce authority? LOL how old is the lil guy?
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES! :)[/quote]
Spankings keep him in time out when other methods fail. Time out allows him to think about the conversations we have. He doesn’t always require a spanking, but when he does it effectively keeps him in time out and the fear of a spanking works every other time so there is your 100% efficiency. It does deter him from leaving early whether it’s a fearful thought or a physical action that comes to pass.
Nothing irrational about it at all, no strawman, connect the dots BG I know you can do it. You are excellent at drawing assumptive conclusions when they support your argument, you can do it the other way around too if you want to honest here in your serious conversation.
We can agree to disagree here. I believe spanking is an effective tool, you do not. I won’t hold that against you.
It was a fun conversation though, for what it’s worth you did make me re-visit the thinking behind my already decided upon method of parenting but I still agree with my original conclusion to include spanking as a tool.
I don’t see a point in continuing. We can have an arbitrary back and forth debate somewhere else but I’m not turning my son, or yours, in to that conversation here.
I’ll ignore your “reinforce authority” barb. I know your kid challenges you, all kids do so I’ll assume that was a joke given a lack of voice inflection and body language to read online.
However, I will assume you use a reward system along with punishment with your son?
I do, and I try to be careful to make it relevent to real world situations while being careful to keep rewards from becoming blackmail. What are some methods and situations where you have found rewards to be helpful?
[/quote]
So you spank him JUST to keep him in time-out?
The fear of spanking keeps him in time out “every other time” and you conclude it’s effective or efficient?
Who isn’t connecting the dots here? Am I being presumptive or, are you all over the place?
We agree to disagree.
There is no point to continuing. There never was one really. I understand the power of bias among other things at play here.
The reinforce authority comment was not a barb. My authority is challenged probably every single day in some manner or other. I don’t need physical correction to “enforce” it to a 5 year old. That was my point, not a barb.
I don’t generally do “reward systems” - I don’t “negotiate with terrorists”. I don’t like bribery in return for correct behavior so as a general rule, I do not engage in this form of “parenting”.
The only methods I’m SURE is effective, and beyond debate, are plenty of love, communication, guidance, patience and consistency. There is no intelligent debate about those parenting “methods”. There is however plenty of intelligent rebuttal to spanking.
But I’m wondering one last thing; you said (now) you only spank to keep him in time-out. you stated prior that you go “cool down” before spanking. I’m having trouble grokking the temporal relationship between time-outs, your cool down and the actual spanking in your home.
For me it comes down to this; There is plenty of scholarship against spanking. When combined with the fact that spanking is often done out of anger or frustration, it makes it a stupid simple decision for me to take that “tool” out of the tool box. Spanking is actually the EASIEST method to apply, so my path will become more difficult. I’ll just accept the challenge to be a better parent.
But yes, agree to disagree. That was apparent pages ago. [/quote]
I’ll answer your one last question, then that’s it. We certainly will not agree. This your conversation though, you asked to have it so don’t get high and mighty now, you kept asking questions. If your serious conversation was bait to use this as a platform to tell me how wrong you think spanking is, you win, not sure what but you do. I heard you. I disagree but I hear. Soap box successfully constructed.
When my son is in time out, he has broken a rule. We discuss this, why he did it, why he shouldn’t do it and he sits on a chair and thinks, as I’ve mentioned.
When he tries to leave early or refuses to sit, he gets spanked. If he’s pushed buttons and I’m mad, I cool down before spanking him.
After his time out, if he continues misbehaving, we move through the system I outlined earlier.
Again, I know you disagree with spanking and I don’t care. I wish you and your son the best, mine and I are doing just fine. I get him this weekend and we are going fishing. He has a new snoopy pole and we are both looking forward to it greatly.
Until next time BG.
PS, I would shoot a bear in my backyard with my kid.
I have to say that any punishments given out to me I got around. Any toy deprivations or no watching tv or whatever was easily got around when I got to go home by myself after school. I would just turn the tv off 30 mins or so before my mom got home. I never learned to not lie to my parents, heck, I still lie to my parents! The only person who spanked my was my babysitter who I went to every day from the time I was 5 months old until I was 12. She was also a big fan of putting kids in the corner. When spanking became “taboo” and considered child abuse she had to resort to time outs, which didn’t work. For some reason putting a kid in the corner was bad and also considered wrong. shrug Sitting a kid on the couch and not letting them play while everyone else around them plays is just not effective. They can still interact. They’re not being punished. If you’re going to insist on time outs being the preferred punishments then they need to be true time outs, like putting a kid in a corner where they can’t see what is going on and cannot continue to interact with their surroundings.
Also, I knew a lady whose daughter was put in a time out IN SCHOOL for 3 hours. For 3 hours she had to sit on the “isolation rug” and not move, not talk, not do anything. Why was she punished this way? For talking loudly and laughing! Now, putting a 5 year old in a 3 hour time out is wrong and cruel. This girl who could read by the time she went to kindergarten, left kindergarten with a reading disorder thanks to her teacher. Her learned skills quickly deteriorated until she answered all questions, even ones like “what is the color red?” with “I don’t know.” All because a TEACHER punished her severely with 3 hour time outs on a regular basis for being a regular kid who enjoyed herself.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Lame. The family never should have publicized the act of punishing their children, they were asking for negative attention in a big way.
I remember having my mouth washed out with soap, getting spanked and occasionally belted (I would have gladly chosen to eat hot sauce), sent to bed with no dinner and being grounded with no tv, radio, phone privilege or use of the backyard pool.
In fact, I would have chosen hot sauce and a cold shower over almost all of the punishments I received.
My punishments are common and generally accepted forms of correction but they could all be twisted in to abuse.
I could have choked on soap.
Spanking is controversial and the alleged abusive aspect of it is obvious.
No dinner could turn in to a media field day of starvation and neglect
Being grounded could be considered extreme isolation…
It’s all so subjective.
I love my parents, they raised me to be a productive, active member of society and I wasn’t an easy kid. Their intent was always love, they always explained the why behind the what and hoped lessons stuck. It sounds like this was the case for the linked family. It’s not like they were just being sadistic assholes deriving pleasure from the kids pain.
This is a bullshit conviction.[/quote]
QFT
I just watched the video and I can say that I was a much worse child and that my parents have punished me 1000X more severely. Just watched the video. Funny thing is that in China or Nigeria, when they show this type of video, they also show that the kid is now a Harvard graduate, piano prodigy, doctor, and CEO after 20 years. The kid didn’t even look scared. I wish my mother was this gentle.
I wasn’t even as cooperative as this kid. I used to run out the house and spew profanities when shit goes down. They would throw shoes at me while I run out. Then I would get dragged back, be bitched at for 2 hours while kneeling on pebbles, then get thrown into a pitch black room for another hour while they bitch from the outside. During that time, I would scream more profanities while punching and kicking the door until my knuckles bleed. Guess what? I turned out fine; happy most of the time and quite accomplished. Not only that, I got a decent martial arts education without realizing it. This isn’t even bad compared to what some other kids I know go through. I’ve see broken yardsticks and belts that were used to beat them. I also literally drank hot sauce for breakfast when I was 5 to show everyone that I was a badass little man, complete with a shaolin warrior hair cut. Kids these days need to toughen up. In the end, I’m sure I have a deeper connection with my parents than most other kids. The opposite of love is not hate, it’s indifference. The switch from being completely evil to completely nice can happen instantaneously. Spoiling a kid is done by giving him all the material goods he desires and never punishing him. Overtraining is a myth when it comes to punishing kids. What doesn’t kill me makes me stronger.
I also handled punishments in school more cleverly as a result of my training at home. I was able to successfully argue or sneak out of punishment in many cases. Sometimes, time out was a good thing. I just chilled and thought about interesting scientific shit while one of my buddies did whatever boring work we had to do at the time for me.