Hot Sauce Mom...

Off Topic
61

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

Non-passionate spanking, as you called it, is a very effective parental tool which I believe leaves no lasting damage.

[/quote]

When you show me the above unicorn exists, it might change how I feel about spankings. I’ve heard some have been captured on tape (but its always grainy footage, or poor lighting), I’ve heard first and second hand accounts (from unreliable sources, some off their medication) and I’ve even heard of a base off in the desert that studied this stuff…but confirmed sightings are indeed rare and/or specious.[/quote]

You are talking to your unicorn. You show me the same the other way around. Also, if you truly believe what you are saying, why do you spank your kid at all?
[/quote]

In case you missed it, I decided I will no longer spank my child. And it’s not even like I gave epic, or frequent spankings.

I have a question for you; since you seem to have this credit card “tiered” punishment system, and an escalation of infractions results in a spanking, yet he still does it, exactly how effective is spanking?[/quote]

I find it effective. Again, he usually comes around much earlier but when a spanking is warranted it works.
[/quote]

You find it “effective” yet you admit he repeats the undesirable behavior which results in more spankings. Okay.

In my club security days, I too found people “come around much earlier” when I employed some measure of physical violence but I can’t help but to suspect they probably continued to have trouble at other venues.

I do not agree something is “effective” when the behavior that triggers it is still repeated later.

Ever consider a child’s mind and that maybe they successfully pass thru these “growing pains” with or without a spanking? That perhaps the most important parenting “method” is the love and communication you previously outlined…and not the spankings? My $$ says the spankings add nothing.

62

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]

My parents spanked me a limited amount of times (I think I could even list them because I remember them) and they also took away toys when I deserved it. I don’t know exactly what I learned, but it worked.
My father shouted at me many times as well (which felt quite violent), but I have zero bitter feelings towards him for this.

I don’t think things are as simple as “Spank, yes or no?”, but I will see that when it’s my time to have children.[/quote]

Nothing is simple when raising children. And to believe in “perfect” or that perfect is even necessary is wrong. We just need to be good enough. A misplaced spanking or yelling is not going to break anyone…a healthy human is quite durable and resilient.

Since you only occassionally received a spanking, I think it explains why you’re pretty ambivilent about using them in the future. Had they been routine custom in your household, I bet you’d be here either defending them and claiming “but I’m okay” or, you’d be condemning them. That’s just human nature.

Personally, I didn’t really get spankings. I quickly reached an age where I wouldn’t accept them. [/quote]

Yes, I agree with everything you said.
Once I have children, I’d like to avoid using any kind of “violence”, like shouting or spanking, but I will make sure my children learn to respect authority, which is not the same as blind following or teach them that it’s fine to be stepped over by anyone. Just that authority (parents, teachers, the law, etc.) is there to be respected.

Thinking about it, I think my father never spanked me, it was my mother who did it.

63

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]

My parents spanked me a limited amount of times (I think I could even list them because I remember them) and they also took away toys when I deserved it. I don’t know exactly what I learned, but it worked.
My father shouted at me many times as well (which felt quite violent), but I have zero bitter feelings towards him for this.

I don’t think things are as simple as “Spank, yes or no?”, but I will see that when it’s my time to have children.[/quote]

Nothing is simple when raising children. And to believe in “perfect” or that perfect is even necessary is wrong. We just need to be good enough. A misplaced spanking or yelling is not going to break anyone…a healthy human is quite durable and resilient.

Since you only occassionally received a spanking, I think it explains why you’re pretty ambivilent about using them in the future. Had they been routine custom in your household, I bet you’d be here either defending them and claiming “but I’m okay” or, you’d be condemning them. That’s just human nature.

Personally, I didn’t really get spankings. I quickly reached an age where I wouldn’t accept them. [/quote]

Yes, I agree with everything you said.
Once I have children, I’d like to avoid using any kind of “violence”, like shouting or spanking, but I will make sure my children learn to respect authority, which is not the same as blind following or teach them that it’s fine to be stepped over by anyone. Just that authority (parents, teachers, the law, etc.) is there to be respected.

Thinking about it, I think my father never spanked me, it was my mother who did it.
[/quote]

Good point. I think yelling and screaming is also troublesome. It is definitely a sign that someone has lost their temper. A loss of temper has no place in parenting in my opinion. That doesn’t mean you’ll never lose your composure - you’d damn near have to be Ghandi for a child to never make you lose it, but you see way too many parents whose default position is to scream, yell, rant and rave. You have still more parents whose default position is to physically correct a child.

To be clear, I’m not judging anyone…just sharing my feelings (and attempting to ask thought provoking questions) in my journey to be the best possible father I can be. My first time around, I was “part time”. This time, it’s on my shoulders and no 700lb + squat could ever feel heavier.

HG’s described method of escalation is by no means unreasonable. I am merely questioning the merit and effectiveness of spanking in general…and I am challenging all parents to explore their personal emotions when it reaches that point. If you’re honest with yourself, you might not like what you find.

64

And HG, you’ve already admitted that before a spanking, you have to allow yourself to “cool down”. You want to consider this further before you respond, or are you just stuck in opposing my viewpoint?

So far you have admitted:

That you were spanked.
That you spank your son.
That your son still requires to be spanked from time to time in spite of clearly understanding the consequences of his behavior.
That you have spanked out of anger.
That even under the best circumstances, you first have to “cool down” before you spank.

Forgive me, but I’m not so sure you’ve offered a strong rebuttal to my position.

65

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]

My parents spanked me a limited amount of times (I think I could even list them because I remember them) and they also took away toys when I deserved it. I don’t know exactly what I learned, but it worked.
My father shouted at me many times as well (which felt quite violent), but I have zero bitter feelings towards him for this.

I don’t think things are as simple as “Spank, yes or no?”, but I will see that when it’s my time to have children.[/quote]

Nothing is simple when raising children. And to believe in “perfect” or that perfect is even necessary is wrong. We just need to be good enough. A misplaced spanking or yelling is not going to break anyone…a healthy human is quite durable and resilient.

Since you only occassionally received a spanking, I think it explains why you’re pretty ambivilent about using them in the future. Had they been routine custom in your household, I bet you’d be here either defending them and claiming “but I’m okay” or, you’d be condemning them. That’s just human nature.

Personally, I didn’t really get spankings. I quickly reached an age where I wouldn’t accept them. [/quote]

Yes, I agree with everything you said.
Once I have children, I’d like to avoid using any kind of “violence”, like shouting or spanking, but I will make sure my children learn to respect authority, which is not the same as blind following or teach them that it’s fine to be stepped over by anyone. Just that authority (parents, teachers, the law, etc.) is there to be respected.

Thinking about it, I think my father never spanked me, it was my mother who did it.
[/quote]

Good point. I think yelling and screaming is also troublesome. It is definitely a sign that someone has lost their temper. A loss of temper has no place in parenting in my opinion. That doesn’t mean you’ll never lose your composure - you’d damn near have to be Ghandi for a child to never make you lose it, but you see way too many parents whose default position is to scream, yell, rant and rave. You have still more parents whose default position is to physically correct a child.

To be clear, I’m not judging anyone…just sharing my feelings (and attempting to ask thought provoking questions) in my journey to be the best possible father I can be. My first time around, I was “part time”. This time, it’s on my shoulders and no 700lb + squat could ever feel heavier.

HG’s described method of escalation is by no means unreasonable. I am merely questioning the merit and effectiveness of spanking in general…and I am challenging all parents to explore their personal emotions when it reaches that point. If you’re honest with yourself, you might not like what you find.[/quote]

Could be. However, I think I almost prefer a father (or mother) who screams at his kid because he’s going around kicking people than one who looks somewhere else.
Although it’s never so simple.

I said this example of “kicking people” because my father confronted a woman for this. The woman’s little kid (5 years old?) was walking around kicking people in the shins while his mother was ignoring it.
My father confronted her because he was kicked twice and it seems it hurt enough for my father to react.

66

[quote]Christine wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Christine wrote:
A fallacy which you chose to repeat.

He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else. [/quote]

It was in the article that was posted in the OP. It was brought into the argument.[/quote]

Are you really that dense or is this some sort of attempt at humor?[/quote]

Nah, I give him benefit of doubt, as he was playing devils advocate. There just wasn’t much to play with.

67

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]

My parents spanked me a limited amount of times (I think I could even list them because I remember them) and they also took away toys when I deserved it. I don’t know exactly what I learned, but it worked.
My father shouted at me many times as well (which felt quite violent), but I have zero bitter feelings towards him for this.

I don’t think things are as simple as “Spank, yes or no?”, but I will see that when it’s my time to have children.[/quote]

Nothing is simple when raising children. And to believe in “perfect” or that perfect is even necessary is wrong. We just need to be good enough. A misplaced spanking or yelling is not going to break anyone…a healthy human is quite durable and resilient.

Since you only occassionally received a spanking, I think it explains why you’re pretty ambivilent about using them in the future. Had they been routine custom in your household, I bet you’d be here either defending them and claiming “but I’m okay” or, you’d be condemning them. That’s just human nature.

Personally, I didn’t really get spankings. I quickly reached an age where I wouldn’t accept them. [/quote]

Yes, I agree with everything you said.
Once I have children, I’d like to avoid using any kind of “violence”, like shouting or spanking, but I will make sure my children learn to respect authority, which is not the same as blind following or teach them that it’s fine to be stepped over by anyone. Just that authority (parents, teachers, the law, etc.) is there to be respected.

Thinking about it, I think my father never spanked me, it was my mother who did it.
[/quote]

Good point. I think yelling and screaming is also troublesome. It is definitely a sign that someone has lost their temper. A loss of temper has no place in parenting in my opinion. That doesn’t mean you’ll never lose your composure - you’d damn near have to be Ghandi for a child to never make you lose it, but you see way too many parents whose default position is to scream, yell, rant and rave. You have still more parents whose default position is to physically correct a child.

To be clear, I’m not judging anyone…just sharing my feelings (and attempting to ask thought provoking questions) in my journey to be the best possible father I can be. My first time around, I was “part time”. This time, it’s on my shoulders and no 700lb + squat could ever feel heavier.

HG’s described method of escalation is by no means unreasonable. I am merely questioning the merit and effectiveness of spanking in general…and I am challenging all parents to explore their personal emotions when it reaches that point. If you’re honest with yourself, you might not like what you find.[/quote]

Could be. However, I think I almost prefer a father (or mother) who screams at his kid because he’s going around kicking people than one who looks somewhere else.
Although it’s never so simple.

I said this example of “kicking people” because my father confronted a woman for this. The woman’s little kid (5 years old?) was walking around kicking people in the shins while his mother was ignoring it.
My father confronted her because he was kicked twice and it seems it hurt enough for my father to react. [/quote]

Of course there are exceptions. And there is a place for emphasis and demonstrating displeasure toward a child. I’m talking the parents that default right into screaming and yelling and spanking.

Well, I’m off to give my son a hug and make him lunch.

68

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

Good point. I think yelling and screaming is also troublesome. It is definitely a sign that someone has lost their temper. A loss of temper has no place in parenting in my opinion. That doesn’t mean you’ll never lose your composure - you’d damn near have to be Ghandi for a child to never make you lose it, but you see way too many parents whose default position is to scream, yell, rant and rave. You have still more parents whose default position is to physically correct a child.

[/quote]

I thinks so too. As I described in the related thread, or at some point, my sister does this and it is completely ineffective.

When I had a hand in raising my nieces, I was very quick and consistent with any discipline, and never had to lay a hand on them. They knew that if they did something it would be addressed immediately, consistently, and predictably, which actually headed off a lot of problems and behaviors.

My sis on the other hand blows stuff off until she blows up. This results in hitting out of anger, even though she swore up and down that she would never lay a hand on her kids like we used to get it (which is an easy out, because we used to receive drunken rage induced beatings). The kids just took this as a sign of exasperation and do what ever they want, knowing that they have won.

69

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Lame. The family never should have publicized the act of punishing their children, they were asking for negative attention in a big way.

I remember having my mouth washed out with soap, getting spanked and occasionally belted (I would have gladly chosen to eat hot sauce), sent to bed with no dinner and being grounded with no tv, radio, phone privilege or use of the backyard pool.

In fact, I would have chosen hot sauce and a cold shower over almost all of the punishments I received.

My punishments are common and generally accepted forms of correction but they could all be twisted in to abuse.

I could have choked on soap.

Spanking is controversial and the alleged abusive aspect of it is obvious.

No dinner could turn in to a media field day of starvation and neglect

Being grounded could be considered extreme isolation…

It’s all so subjective.

I love my parents, they raised me to be a productive, active member of society and I wasn’t an easy kid. Their intent was always love, they always explained the why behind the what and hoped lessons stuck. It sounds like this was the case for the linked family. It’s not like they were just being sadistic assholes deriving pleasure from the kids pain.

This is a bullshit conviction.[/quote]

You’re pretty late to the “my parents did this and that but I’m okay” brag…that was in the original hot sauce mom thread. There is ample evidence within these very forums that you are not as okay as you proclaim.

Do you have children? If you do, I want to start a serious dialogue, because I’m going thru this right now myself.
[/quote]

No brag. Personal, anecdotal evidence.

If you think I’m so fucked up, why do you want my parenting advice?

But yes, I have a son. I’m not married, I had a gf a few years ago. I love my son and would give my life for him, he was not planned. The girl and I are no longer together but we are on good terms and share the responsibility of our son equally.

I’m all for a serious conversation. If you deem your thread the right place I’m fine with it. If you prefer pm that is ok too. My preference is your thread though, I’m open to insight from you and other posters…[/quote]

LOL I’m not looking for your parenting advice, trust me. A spirited debate, yes. Advice no.

First, it’s fallacious to think that b/c your parents, or a generation did one thing, that it’s the “best” way to do it or that it’s okay. We pretty much come to be conditioned to think or believe something is normal if we’re exposed to it long enough. Hell, prisoners and the abused even learn to love their imprisoners/abusers, to give you an extreme example. So, to say “my parents did this” or, “this generation did that” followed by “and we’re okay” is a non-starter. There is no evidence “we’re okay” or, that you wouldn’t be better off with a different approach or, that you’re merely just conditioned to repeat a cycle (common) as your parents were.

As for me, I’m struggling with what I deem to be appropriate punishment. You have a son. I assume from your post you’re not against corporal punishment. I have an honest question; have you ever struck your son when you’re angry? I’m willing to bet you have. I too have spanked my son and I’ve usually been at the end of my wits or angry when I’ve done so. I’m not comfortable with this and if you love your son, you shouldn’t be either. If spanking is truly “corrective” and is not merely a release valve for your anger (it’s a slippery slope), then why so many parents do it as a last resort and usually with anger? I’m not saying a spanking cannot be given dispassionately - I know it can. But it’s rare from what I’ve seen…extremely rare. A spanking is usually the default position of a loss of control by the parent, frustration or anger. I’m pretty sure that I’m personally finished with the spanking thing (which was very infrequent for me anyway). I think intelligent parents (you might want to call them pussies right?) can think of better corrective measures.

And as far as an argument by anectdote, for every alleged person you can cite that got spankings “or worse”, I know one that received the same and is fucked up.

Anyway, it’s just a subject I’ve been thinking about earnestly as my 5 year son challenges my patience like 5 years olds are want to do. I have NEVER struck him hard, never left a mark, never more than a swat or two on the butt and it’s something that has occurred very infrequently yet every single time I’ve done it, I’m very troubled by it…b/c of the EMOTION I felt when doing so. Think about it…and be honest.

And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]

I’m going to ignore your first paragraph. Psychology is a shaky science and neither one of us are psychologists, that will be a ridiculous conversation based purely on speculation.

I have spanked my son out of anger and instantly regretted it. I felt horrible. He really didn’t even deserve it. He was being a brat, had intentionally broken some rules and needed to be punished but I did bend him over quickly. It was a combination of stress from the day and his attitude “breaking the camels back”. I’ll be honest, I cried later thinking about it. He took a spanking I should have given to one of my sales guys.

I do spank him with a level head though, but not before trying other methods. We are clear on expectations and relevent punishment.

  1. We talk. I want to know why he did what he did, why he is acting out et cetera. Usually I can find out that something is eating at him and we can address it as a team. I believe this teaches him that communication is the primary method of conflict resolution and that some conflicts don’t even exist, often misunderstandings. This is also a fantastic bonding opportunity every time.

  2. Should he continue to break rules and act out of line he goes to time out with an explanation. (to think, gain perspective and understand he is not the authority figure in our dynamic)

  3. If this doesn’t work he loses his allowance for the week. (loss is absolutely a consequence of poor decisions and actions)

  4. Next is a loss of certain toys. (same concept as number three but more immediatly valuable to him)

  5. After his punishment is over we talk again and I make sure he understands the lesson he was being taught, he usually does.

  6. If he continues to act out, even after demonstrating an understanding that what he is doing is wrong, he gets spanked. If he repeats an offense again and again, we skip the first few steps as they proved not to work and he gets spanked. He knows this.

My son is very bright but also hard charging and bullheaded. He will do without just to make a point and undermine my authority in many cases. He will learn to respect authority and will respect me as his authority through an escalation of consequences. This is accurate for the real world.

I don’t believe I am teaching him to be violent. Many forms of punishment and understanding take place before a spanking and he knows the spanking is coming if he keeps pushing the line, which he does just to see how far he can push. I let him push and deprive himself of allowance, time and toys because I want him to be a hard charging, slow to back down guy, but one who is such with respect. So when he really hits the line he learns to be respectful in spite of himself.

If you have a tip to keep him in line after understanding conversation, time out, loss of priveleges and more conversation fail, please do let me know, seriously. If I can add another productive step before spanking I absolutely will.

[/quote]

Everything you said sounds reasonable. However, I do not believe you (or many others administer spankings without anger or frustration). I’m evolved enough to admit I have and I’m not comfortable with it. In fact, I’m horrified by it. Spankings will no longer be in my tool box. Like I said earlier, and I don’t believe for one minute your child is different - the loss of privilege or possession leaves more a teaching imprint than any REASONABLE spanking will.

At the end of the day, you’re using violence to get compliance and no, that manner of escalation as you call it does NOT occur in everyday legal polite society.

As for your psych comment, my brother is a professor of psych at an ivy league school. Not saying I am, but I have more than a passing interest and done my fair share of reading. I feel pretty good about my position. I feel ever better about my decision that my son won’t be spanked any more.[/quote]

I completely missed this post. I have spanked him out of anger. I mentioned this and will never do it again.

When it comes time for a spanking, If I feel a little hot, I cool down first. He goes to his room and waits for it. It just takes a little discipline. Plus, I know he’s been dreading my appearence and naturally I go easy on him, the punishment has largely been administered mentally, the point successfully made.

In society, say a job, issues are escalated until you are fired. I can’t and wouldn’t fire my son if he refuses flat out to fall in line. Spanking is the end of the road, the last resort and I have no qualms over using it responsibly. Again, if you have something add, an idea to postpone spanking further, please do. We go through the loss of privelege and possession and it usually does work, I’m not denying this.

And I don’t care what your brother does. I’m not talking to him. I took psychology and sociology classes as electives in college and read books too. I’m still not going to follow this tangent. The only psychology I’m interested in is sales/management psychology. We can start a seperate thread for that if you want, I’m absolutely all ears for insight here.
[/quote]

I never intended to go on a tangent. I was responding to your quip. By all means, start the other thread.

I don’t have the answer you (or myself) is seeking, however rhetorical or sincere you may be about the question. All I know is that I do not believe it works, I don’t like how it makes me feel, and I’ll no longer use it. And given your reply above, I’m honestly not sure which I’m more uncomfortable with - a heat of the moment reasonable spanking out of frustration or, a planned dispassionate spanking. Both bother me now that you mention it, and perhaps the latter moreso.

I don’t think it works. Period. Your case study of one proves it doesn’t (at least in your household) - else he would only require a single spanking ever since by your own admission, he understands the rules, the tiers and the outcomes, yet still manages to get spanked.

So back to my original point that you want to avoid merely b/c we’re not trained psychologists. Do you spank b/c you made an informed, educated decision to do so? Or do you spank b/c you were spanked?

If you made an informed, educated decision to spank, please enlighten me as to where you secured your evidence that the same is an effective means of punishment. And what are you doing wrong that it doesn’t work? He knows he will get one, by your own admission, yet happily proceeds along anyway in some instances. Don’t worry HG, I’m not shooting any arrows at you, it doesn’t work in my house either.

If you did not make an informed, educated decision to spank, I suspect you spank b/c you were spanked and I again refer you to my original point on that matter.

And, I’m troubled you don’t see the disconnect between a waitress getting fired and violence. One is presumably an “equitable outcome” based on certain behavior and assuming the firing was warranted, the other is merely assault and punishment which, in polite society, we have surrendered the right of same to the State. Nowhere in society do we legally assault someone to punish them.

[/quote]

Books I’ve read, parenting seminars at a local church, websites too, plus personal experience as a child lead me to the conclusion that spanking is effective.

I don’t think anything works 100% of the time on any child. Sometimes what ever my son is doing is more important to him than his allowance, his favorite toys or avoiding a spanking. Often I think in his case it is rebellion in general, a very early taste of teenage years I fear. He will take all punishment just to win.

Some times I think he thinks he can be sneaky and get away with shit with out getting caught. Adults know they can go to jail for robbery, yet commit the crime anyway with no intention of being found out.

I don’t know what to do after a spanking if it does fail. I keep his toys and restrict freedoms for as long as it takes but it’s not like I ever have complete control over him, and probably shouldn’t.

I’ve said twice already, if you have a productive suggestion to add before spanking comes in to play, I’m all ears. I’m being sincere, not rhetorical, you said you wanted a serious discussion. There is always room for improvement, especially as a parent.

One problem I face too is his mother is easier on him than I am. We are on good terms, we were a fling who produced a baby and neither of us believes in abortion. We are not together but all three of us do spend quality time a few days a week. Then she has him some days and I others.

He pushes the limit with her more than me. She is good about threatening time out and taking toys but when it comes to enforcing time out, if he is particularly stubborn, she breaks down and won’t spank him. He runs around willy nilly with other toys or his imagination alone if she takes them all.

When he leaves time out early with me, he gets spanked and time out is the better alternative so he usually listens.

When I get him from her though, he is a total out of control brat more often than not and it takes a day, often some spanking, to get him in line. Once he shapes up he’s fine and if he challenges boundaries he knows to stay in time out and then “get with it” more often than not because another spanking is coming if he doesn’t. It does work, most of the time.

Better consistency would be nice but his mom just doesn’t have the gall and, I believe, pushes the responsibility of discipline on me. It’s an ongoing argument, speculative on my part so I can’t really win but I definitely think she is passing the buck.

70

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And HG, you’ve already admitted that before a spanking, you have to allow yourself to “cool down”. You want to consider this further before you respond, or are you just stuck in opposing my viewpoint?

So far you have admitted:

That you were spanked.
That you spank your son.
That your son still requires to be spanked from time to time in spite of clearly understanding the consequences of his behavior.
That you have spanked out of anger.
That even under the best circumstances, you first have to “cool down” before you spank.

Forgive me, but I’m not so sure you’ve offered a strong rebuttal to my position. [/quote] You’ve asked a few times now if and why I think spanking is effective. We have multiple reply boxes going on now. I’ve answered in the above box, lets keep that one going for simplicities sake.

Given all your questions and observations above, I do believe spanking is effective and will continue to employ it’s use when I deem necessary. Please keep replies in the other box, make a notation if my answer to your similar question doesn’t suffice for you here too.

And my apologies for the delay. It was squat day again.

71

[quote]byukid wrote:
Hm, you know, there’s clearly got to be one best way to raise a child that applies to everyone everywhere in every circumstance for every child. [/quote]

So true.

In golf, you have a bag full of clubs. You can’t use only one club all the time and expect good results. Likewise, there may be one club you only use on rare occasions, but you keep it in the bag “just in case”.

To me, raising kids is like playing golf. You have all of these different forms of discipline and encouragement that you can choose from. It may be very appropriate to use a certain form of discipline, such as a time-out, in one instance, while it is completely inappropriate in others. Same as with taking away a privilege. On the flip side, you may get a lot of mileage using a system of rewards to motivate your kid. Guess, what, chances are one day, out of the blue, it won’t work, and you will scratch your head and say “huh, this always worked before.”

Throw a couple more kids into the mix and theories and explanations and rationality are useless. Every kid is different and every kid changes and adapts based on internal and external forces. Humans are dynamic animals and human relationships are even more complex.

I think the best parents have a multitude of “clubs” at their disposal and have the experience to know which club to use when and know how to use it.

And no parent is “always right”.

DB

72

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

Books I’ve read, parenting seminars at a local church, websites too, plus personal experience as a child lead me to the conclusion that spanking is effective.

I don’t think anything works 100% of the time on any child. Sometimes what ever my son is doing is more important to him than his allowance, his favorite toys or avoiding a spanking. Often I think in his case it is rebellion in general, a very early taste of teenage years I fear. He will take all punishment just to win.

Some times I think he thinks he can be sneaky and get away with shit with out getting caught. Adults know they can go to jail for robbery, yet commit the crime anyway with no intention of being found out.

I don’t know what to do after a spanking if it does fail. I keep his toys and restrict freedoms for as long as it takes but it’s not like I ever have complete control over him, and probably shouldn’t.

I’ve said twice already, if you have a productive suggestion to add before spanking comes in to play, I’m all ears. I’m being sincere, not rhetorical, you said you wanted a serious discussion. There is always room for improvement, especially as a parent.

One problem I face too is his mother is easier on him than I am. We are on good terms, we were a fling who produced a baby and neither of us believes in abortion. We are not together but all three of us do spend quality time a few days a week. Then she has him some days and I others.

He pushes the limit with her more than me. She is good about threatening time out and taking toys but when it comes to enforcing time out, if he is particularly stubborn, she breaks down and won’t spank him. He runs around willy nilly with other toys or his imagination alone if she takes them all.

When he leaves time out early with me, he gets spanked and time out is the better alternative so he usually listens.

When I get him from her though, he is a total out of control brat more often than not and it takes a day, often some spanking, to get him in line. Once he shapes up he’s fine and if he challenges boundaries he knows to stay in time out and then “get with it” more often than not because another spanking is coming if he doesn’t. It does work, most of the time.

Better consistency would be nice but his mom just doesn’t have the gall and, I believe, pushes the responsibility of discipline on me. It’s an ongoing argument, speculative on my part so I can’t really win but I definitely think she is passing the buck.

[/quote]

What books have you read that advocate spanking? And your personal experience as a child? Aren’t you falling into that cycle trap I spoke of earlier? Just wondering…

Anyway, no - nothing works all the time. And as to your earnest question, I’ve addressed it, albeit indirectly. We don’t have to be perfect. I think we need to do just what you claim you do - love, communicate and be fair. I’m not sure spanking has any value along that continuum. Remove the spanking and I think you get the same result all things being equal. I don’t think he goes “off the reservation” at the removal of spanking. But at the end of the day, it’s a personal choice (or bias depending on you look at it) and as long as it falls short of abuse, who is to say you’re “wrong”.

What suggestions do I have? None. You know the answer. You’re caught between the mom and consistency I think is key. I have the same problem. Mine has the shorter fuse and less patience, but is considerably younger. I’m a bit wiser, a bit more patient. I have to manage her, and him.

I just think spanking does not add anything. It may help a kid “reboot” from a tantrum, but I can’t help to think there are other ways to manage it. I know I’m going to try.

73

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:

[quote]byukid wrote:
Hm, you know, there’s clearly got to be one best way to raise a child that applies to everyone everywhere in every circumstance for every child. [/quote]

So true.

In golf, you have a bag full of clubs. You can’t use only one club all the time and expect good results. Likewise, there may be one club you only use on rare occasions, but you keep it in the bag “just in case”.

To me, raising kids is like playing golf. You have all of these different forms of discipline and encouragement that you can choose from. It may be very appropriate to use a certain form of discipline, such as a time-out, in one instance, while it is completely inappropriate in others. Same as with taking away a privilege. On the flip side, you may get a lot of mileage using a system of rewards to motivate your kid. Guess, what, chances are one day, out of the blue, it won’t work, and you will scratch your head and say “huh, this always worked before.”

Throw a couple more kids into the mix and theories and explanations and rationality are useless. Every kid is different and every kid changes and adapts based on internal and external forces. Humans are dynamic animals and human relationships are even more complex.

I think the best parents have a multitude of “clubs” at their disposal and have the experience to know which club to use when and know how to use it.

And no parent is “always right”.

DB
[/quote]

Rewards are crucial and magical. We have a reward system too, but I’m careful to not to let it turn in to bribery, which can be tricky.

74

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And HG, you’ve already admitted that before a spanking, you have to allow yourself to “cool down”. You want to consider this further before you respond, or are you just stuck in opposing my viewpoint?

So far you have admitted:

That you were spanked.
That you spank your son.
That your son still requires to be spanked from time to time in spite of clearly understanding the consequences of his behavior.
That you have spanked out of anger.
That even under the best circumstances, you first have to “cool down” before you spank.

Forgive me, but I’m not so sure you’ve offered a strong rebuttal to my position. [/quote] You’ve asked a few times now if and why I think spanking is effective. We have multiple reply boxes going on now. I’ve answered in the above box, lets keep that one going for simplicities sake.

Given all your questions and observations above, I do believe spanking is effective and will continue to employ it’s use when I deem necessary. Please keep replies in the other box, make a notation if my answer to your similar question doesn’t suffice for you here too.

And my apologies for the delay. It was squat day again.
[/quote]

But you didn’t tell me why it’s effective. In fact, your own words are pretty strong evidence it’s not. He knows and understands consequences, yet still requires spankings…and from the sound of it, they are not infrequent. I’m not challenging “you”, I’m challenging your perception that they are effective when clearly they do not appear to be by your own words.

75

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:

[quote]byukid wrote:
Hm, you know, there’s clearly got to be one best way to raise a child that applies to everyone everywhere in every circumstance for every child. [/quote]

So true.

In golf, you have a bag full of clubs. You can’t use only one club all the time and expect good results. Likewise, there may be one club you only use on rare occasions, but you keep it in the bag “just in case”.

To me, raising kids is like playing golf. You have all of these different forms of discipline and encouragement that you can choose from. It may be very appropriate to use a certain form of discipline, such as a time-out, in one instance, while it is completely inappropriate in others. Same as with taking away a privilege. On the flip side, you may get a lot of mileage using a system of rewards to motivate your kid. Guess, what, chances are one day, out of the blue, it won’t work, and you will scratch your head and say “huh, this always worked before.”

Throw a couple more kids into the mix and theories and explanations and rationality are useless. Every kid is different and every kid changes and adapts based on internal and external forces. Humans are dynamic animals and human relationships are even more complex.

I think the best parents have a multitude of “clubs” at their disposal and have the experience to know which club to use when and know how to use it.

And no parent is “always right”.

DB
[/quote]

Meh. I don’t think we’re as dynamic or complex as you’d like to think. We’re pretty damn predictable for the most part and fall into “types”. I don’t disagree with the tools in the toolbox analogy (“club”? really? was that purposeful lol?) but we’ve reached a point where we’re discussing whether that one “club” is really effective. And moreover, we’re exploring (hopefully honestly) the emotions behind picking up and swinging that “club”.

Are you a parent?

76

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And HG, you’ve already admitted that before a spanking, you have to allow yourself to “cool down”. You want to consider this further before you respond, or are you just stuck in opposing my viewpoint?

So far you have admitted:

That you were spanked.
That you spank your son.
That your son still requires to be spanked from time to time in spite of clearly understanding the consequences of his behavior.
That you have spanked out of anger.
That even under the best circumstances, you first have to “cool down” before you spank.

Forgive me, but I’m not so sure you’ve offered a strong rebuttal to my position. [/quote] You’ve asked a few times now if and why I think spanking is effective. We have multiple reply boxes going on now. I’ve answered in the above box, lets keep that one going for simplicities sake.

Given all your questions and observations above, I do believe spanking is effective and will continue to employ it’s use when I deem necessary. Please keep replies in the other box, make a notation if my answer to your similar question doesn’t suffice for you here too.

And my apologies for the delay. It was squat day again.
[/quote]

But you didn’t tell me why it’s effective. In fact, your own words are pretty strong evidence it’s not. He knows and understands consequences, yet still requires spankings…and from the sound of it, they are not infrequent. I’m not challenging “you”, I’m challenging your perception that they are effective when clearly they do not appear to be by your own words.
[/quote]

I understand where you are coming from. You don’t have to preface your comments and questions with an explanation of a lack of personal challenge. You may have some retarded opinions else where but children actually are serious business and I respect your position as a father aiming to do his best.

I alluded to why it’s effective. More directly, it gives him a choice. Sit in time out, think about what he did, realize it’s not worth it and move on or leave time out, get spanked, go back to time out and try again. It enforces my authority when the directive of time out fails. Spanking is an enforcement of authority, a tool to keep him in line and other forms of punishment relevent.

When he leaves time out early with his mother for example, she does nothing but plead, maybe raise her voice. He doesn’t give a shit. It becomes a battle of wills and he wins. She can’t punish or teach him if she wants too.

With me, he knows he will get spanked. Sometimes he pushes anyways, usually he respects my authority, even if physical in nature at this point and checks himself, finishes time out and carries on, attitude in check.

So, I guess the short answer is, I know it works because he respects my authority more often than not, whether he likes it or not, at the threat of a spanking. And, like it or not, he listens to what I have to say. Once a seed is planted in that little brain of his, I have no idea what kind of intrinsic value he places on it, but I know it’s there which is better than the alternative.

Is spanking 100% effective? Of course not. Is denial? How do I know he isn’t just being manipulative and biding his time to get his stuff back? How many times does the lesson actually stick and how often is he just playing me? I can’t say for sure. But I know he has to be thinking about something in time out, or with out toys to play with and my hope is that it is the coversation we had before any punishment was dealt and the explanation as to why he is sitting in time out.

More than that, I hope he is applying the conversation to his situation by working through some self analysis. And if the fear of a spanking is required for him to sit on his little ass and think, so be it.

77

You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…

and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.

Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word.

78

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…

and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.

Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word. [/quote]
I’ve absolutely answered your questions. I think you just don’t like the answers.

Let me try it another way.

I believe spanking works because it brings about a desired effect in my methodology of punishment and correction, with out leaving lasting damage according to books I’ve read, seminars I’ve attended and personal experience.

How does spanking make me feel emotionally? If done in a methodical, objective manner I feel fine. Knowing it is for the greater good of my son, I feel good about being a good parent. When I lost my cool and spanked out of anger, I felt horrible. It was not appropriate at all, it was also completely different because of circumstance, context and intent, even if the action is the same.

These are the two questions you have asked. They’ve been answered in context and here are the answers alone.

79

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…

and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.

Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word. [/quote]
I’ve absolutely answered your questions. I think you just don’t like the answers.

Let me try it another way.

I believe spanking works because it brings about a desired effect in my methodology of punishment and correction, with out leaving lasting damage according to books I’ve read, seminars I’ve attended and personal experience.

How does spanking make me feel emotionally? If done in a methodical, objective manner I feel fine. Knowing it is for the greater good of my son, I feel good about being a good parent. When I lost my cool and spanked out of anger, I felt horrible. It was not appropriate at all, it was also completely different because of circumstance, context and intent, even if the action is the same.

These are the two questions you have asked. They’ve been answered in context and here are the answers alone. [/quote]

But based on your own words, the “desired effect” is temporary at best as evidenced that he still requires spankings. So how do you define “effective”?

Based on your own words, you admit you need to go “cool down” before you spank.

What books have you read about this?

Which “seminars” did you attend? Church?

80

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
You have not addressed head on one point I’ve raised. I’m tired of arguing around the issue, and playing semantics with you. You’re dancing…

and like a “young man coming in for a quickie”, you leave me feeling “unsatisfied” - KGB, Rounders.

Not even the ad hominem with the backhanded claim of “respect” can get me to bite. You have the last word. [/quote]
I’ve absolutely answered your questions. I think you just don’t like the answers.

Let me try it another way.

I believe spanking works because it brings about a desired effect in my methodology of punishment and correction, with out leaving lasting damage according to books I’ve read, seminars I’ve attended and personal experience.

How does spanking make me feel emotionally? If done in a methodical, objective manner I feel fine. Knowing it is for the greater good of my son, I feel good about being a good parent. When I lost my cool and spanked out of anger, I felt horrible. It was not appropriate at all, it was also completely different because of circumstance, context and intent, even if the action is the same.

These are the two questions you have asked. They’ve been answered in context and here are the answers alone. [/quote]

But based on your own words, the “desired effect” is temporary at best as evidenced that he still requires spankings. So how do you define “effective”?

Based on your own words, you admit you need to go “cool down” before you spank.

What books have you read about this?

Which “seminars” did you attend? Church?[/quote]

Again it is effective in that it does establish and enforce my authority when reason does not. I don’t believe spanking, deprivation or isolation are permanently effective by themselves.

They are tools used to cause a kid to reflect on whatever issue is at hand. If one doesn’t work another may, as dollarbill mentioned. I want my son to think about our conversations, and the fear of a spanking, as mentioned, more often than not keeps him in his seat, effectively bored and thinking, my goal. It is not effective as a be all, end all lesson and form of correction. I have not found anything that is. To use DB’s analogy again, sometimes I drive a ball much further than others but the driver is way more effective than a 7 iron off the tee every time.

Yes, I cool down. By the time I put him in time out I’m mad, same as spanking. I don’t want to spank him mad. Conveying anger in a physical way is not the intent. A spanking is a deterrent and nothing else.

I’ll have to dig up titles but James Dobson was the author.

A parenting seminar and class was/is conducted at 1st Baptist Church in Houston. I should note that I’m not a very religious guy but I do believe in Christianity. I do want to instill this belief in my son and I do draw parenting advice from religious leaders and organizations I respect. A personal issue I wrestle with currently is the fact I know I need to start walking the walk for my son’s benefit but that is another thread altogether.

I know you don’t like long answers but I’ve answered your questions directly. I like context, it gives answers better and fuller meaning. I don’t categorize and see as black and white as you, there is a huge swath of grey area in parenting and spanking in particular.