[quote]Christine wrote:
A fallacy which you chose to repeat.
He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else. [/quote]
It was in the article that was posted in the OP. It was brought into the argument.
[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
…And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]
EXACTLY!
My wife and I NEVER hit or physically harmed our son. But we were relentlessly consistent with our discipline, “reward and remove” system, and the art of distraction. Being a smart parent means respect is taught through respect.
[/quote]
you’re obviously a pussy and a hippie. your child will be an ax murderer one day! LOL
It’s good to see signs of intelligent life here sometimes. “My daddy whooped my ass and I’m okay” is fucking tired. I love my son enough to be more introspective than “it’s what my parents did”.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Lame. The family never should have publicized the act of punishing their children, they were asking for negative attention in a big way.
I remember having my mouth washed out with soap, getting spanked and occasionally belted (I would have gladly chosen to eat hot sauce), sent to bed with no dinner and being grounded with no tv, radio, phone privilege or use of the backyard pool.
In fact, I would have chosen hot sauce and a cold shower over almost all of the punishments I received.
My punishments are common and generally accepted forms of correction but they could all be twisted in to abuse.
I could have choked on soap.
Spanking is controversial and the alleged abusive aspect of it is obvious.
No dinner could turn in to a media field day of starvation and neglect
Being grounded could be considered extreme isolation…
It’s all so subjective.
I love my parents, they raised me to be a productive, active member of society and I wasn’t an easy kid. Their intent was always love, they always explained the why behind the what and hoped lessons stuck. It sounds like this was the case for the linked family. It’s not like they were just being sadistic assholes deriving pleasure from the kids pain.
This is a bullshit conviction.[/quote]
You’re pretty late to the “my parents did this and that but I’m okay” brag…that was in the original hot sauce mom thread. There is ample evidence within these very forums that you are not as okay as you proclaim.
Do you have children? If you do, I want to start a serious dialogue, because I’m going thru this right now myself.
[/quote]
No brag. Personal, anecdotal evidence.
If you think I’m so fucked up, why do you want my parenting advice?
But yes, I have a son. I’m not married, I had a gf a few years ago. I love my son and would give my life for him, he was not planned. The girl and I are no longer together but we are on good terms and share the responsibility of our son equally.
I’m all for a serious conversation. If you deem your thread the right place I’m fine with it. If you prefer pm that is ok too. My preference is your thread though, I’m open to insight from you and other posters…[/quote]
LOL I’m not looking for your parenting advice, trust me. A spirited debate, yes. Advice no.
First, it’s fallacious to think that b/c your parents, or a generation did one thing, that it’s the “best” way to do it or that it’s okay. We pretty much come to be conditioned to think or believe something is normal if we’re exposed to it long enough. Hell, prisoners and the abused even learn to love their imprisoners/abusers, to give you an extreme example. So, to say “my parents did this” or, “this generation did that” followed by “and we’re okay” is a non-starter. There is no evidence “we’re okay” or, that you wouldn’t be better off with a different approach or, that you’re merely just conditioned to repeat a cycle (common) as your parents were.
As for me, I’m struggling with what I deem to be appropriate punishment. You have a son. I assume from your post you’re not against corporal punishment. I have an honest question; have you ever struck your son when you’re angry? I’m willing to bet you have. I too have spanked my son and I’ve usually been at the end of my wits or angry when I’ve done so. I’m not comfortable with this and if you love your son, you shouldn’t be either. If spanking is truly “corrective” and is not merely a release valve for your anger (it’s a slippery slope), then why so many parents do it as a last resort and usually with anger? I’m not saying a spanking cannot be given dispassionately - I know it can. But it’s rare from what I’ve seen…extremely rare. A spanking is usually the default position of a loss of control by the parent, frustration or anger. I’m pretty sure that I’m personally finished with the spanking thing (which was very infrequent for me anyway). I think intelligent parents (you might want to call them pussies right?) can think of better corrective measures.
And as far as an argument by anectdote, for every alleged person you can cite that got spankings “or worse”, I know one that received the same and is fucked up.
Anyway, it’s just a subject I’ve been thinking about earnestly as my 5 year son challenges my patience like 5 years olds are want to do. I have NEVER struck him hard, never left a mark, never more than a swat or two on the butt and it’s something that has occurred very infrequently yet every single time I’ve done it, I’m very troubled by it…b/c of the EMOTION I felt when doing so. Think about it…and be honest.
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]
I’m going to ignore your first paragraph. Psychology is a shaky science and neither one of us are psychologists, that will be a ridiculous conversation based purely on speculation.
I have spanked my son out of anger and instantly regretted it. I felt horrible. He really didn’t even deserve it. He was being a brat, had intentionally broken some rules and needed to be punished but I did bend him over quickly. It was a combination of stress from the day and his attitude “breaking the camels back”. I’ll be honest, I cried later thinking about it. He took a spanking I should have given to one of my sales guys.
I do spank him with a level head though, but not before trying other methods. We are clear on expectations and relevent punishment.
-
We talk. I want to know why he did what he did, why he is acting out et cetera. Usually I can find out that something is eating at him and we can address it as a team. I believe this teaches him that communication is the primary method of conflict resolution and that some conflicts don’t even exist, often misunderstandings. This is also a fantastic bonding opportunity every time.
-
Should he continue to break rules and act out of line he goes to time out with an explanation. (to think, gain perspective and understand he is not the authority figure in our dynamic)
-
If this doesn’t work he loses his allowance for the week. (loss is absolutely a consequence of poor decisions and actions)
-
Next is a loss of certain toys. (same concept as number three but more immediatly valuable to him)
-
After his punishment is over we talk again and I make sure he understands the lesson he was being taught, he usually does.
-
If he continues to act out, even after demonstrating an understanding that what he is doing is wrong, he gets spanked. If he repeats an offense again and again, we skip the first few steps as they proved not to work and he gets spanked. He knows this.
My son is very bright but also hard charging and bullheaded. He will do without just to make a point and undermine my authority in many cases. He will learn to respect authority and will respect me as his authority through an escalation of consequences. This is accurate for the real world.
I don’t believe I am teaching him to be violent. Many forms of punishment and understanding take place before a spanking and he knows the spanking is coming if he keeps pushing the line, which he does just to see how far he can push. I let him push and deprive himself of allowance, time and toys because I want him to be a hard charging, slow to back down guy, but one who is such with respect. So when he really hits the line he learns to be respectful in spite of himself.
If you have a tip to keep him in line after understanding conversation, time out, loss of priveleges and more conversation fail, please do let me know, seriously. If I can add another productive step before spanking I absolutely will.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]
My parents spanked me a limited amount of times (I think I could even list them because I remember them) and they also took away toys when I deserved it. I don’t know exactly what I learned, but it worked.
My father shouted at me many times as well (which felt quite violent), but I have zero bitter feelings towards him for this.
I don’t think things are as simple as “Spank, yes or no?”, but I will see that when it’s my time to have children.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Lame. The family never should have publicized the act of punishing their children, they were asking for negative attention in a big way.
I remember having my mouth washed out with soap, getting spanked and occasionally belted (I would have gladly chosen to eat hot sauce), sent to bed with no dinner and being grounded with no tv, radio, phone privilege or use of the backyard pool.
In fact, I would have chosen hot sauce and a cold shower over almost all of the punishments I received.
My punishments are common and generally accepted forms of correction but they could all be twisted in to abuse.
I could have choked on soap.
Spanking is controversial and the alleged abusive aspect of it is obvious.
No dinner could turn in to a media field day of starvation and neglect
Being grounded could be considered extreme isolation…
It’s all so subjective.
I love my parents, they raised me to be a productive, active member of society and I wasn’t an easy kid. Their intent was always love, they always explained the why behind the what and hoped lessons stuck. It sounds like this was the case for the linked family. It’s not like they were just being sadistic assholes deriving pleasure from the kids pain.
This is a bullshit conviction.[/quote]
You’re pretty late to the “my parents did this and that but I’m okay” brag…that was in the original hot sauce mom thread. There is ample evidence within these very forums that you are not as okay as you proclaim.
Do you have children? If you do, I want to start a serious dialogue, because I’m going thru this right now myself.
[/quote]
No brag. Personal, anecdotal evidence.
If you think I’m so fucked up, why do you want my parenting advice?
But yes, I have a son. I’m not married, I had a gf a few years ago. I love my son and would give my life for him, he was not planned. The girl and I are no longer together but we are on good terms and share the responsibility of our son equally.
I’m all for a serious conversation. If you deem your thread the right place I’m fine with it. If you prefer pm that is ok too. My preference is your thread though, I’m open to insight from you and other posters…[/quote]
LOL I’m not looking for your parenting advice, trust me. A spirited debate, yes. Advice no.
First, it’s fallacious to think that b/c your parents, or a generation did one thing, that it’s the “best” way to do it or that it’s okay. We pretty much come to be conditioned to think or believe something is normal if we’re exposed to it long enough. Hell, prisoners and the abused even learn to love their imprisoners/abusers, to give you an extreme example. So, to say “my parents did this” or, “this generation did that” followed by “and we’re okay” is a non-starter. There is no evidence “we’re okay” or, that you wouldn’t be better off with a different approach or, that you’re merely just conditioned to repeat a cycle (common) as your parents were.
As for me, I’m struggling with what I deem to be appropriate punishment. You have a son. I assume from your post you’re not against corporal punishment. I have an honest question; have you ever struck your son when you’re angry? I’m willing to bet you have. I too have spanked my son and I’ve usually been at the end of my wits or angry when I’ve done so. I’m not comfortable with this and if you love your son, you shouldn’t be either. If spanking is truly “corrective” and is not merely a release valve for your anger (it’s a slippery slope), then why so many parents do it as a last resort and usually with anger? I’m not saying a spanking cannot be given dispassionately - I know it can. But it’s rare from what I’ve seen…extremely rare. A spanking is usually the default position of a loss of control by the parent, frustration or anger. I’m pretty sure that I’m personally finished with the spanking thing (which was very infrequent for me anyway). I think intelligent parents (you might want to call them pussies right?) can think of better corrective measures.
And as far as an argument by anectdote, for every alleged person you can cite that got spankings “or worse”, I know one that received the same and is fucked up.
Anyway, it’s just a subject I’ve been thinking about earnestly as my 5 year son challenges my patience like 5 years olds are want to do. I have NEVER struck him hard, never left a mark, never more than a swat or two on the butt and it’s something that has occurred very infrequently yet every single time I’ve done it, I’m very troubled by it…b/c of the EMOTION I felt when doing so. Think about it…and be honest.
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]
I’m going to ignore your first paragraph. Psychology is a shaky science and neither one of us are psychologists, that will be a ridiculous conversation based purely on speculation.
I have spanked my son out of anger and instantly regretted it. I felt horrible. He really didn’t even deserve it. He was being a brat, had intentionally broken some rules and needed to be punished but I did bend him over quickly. It was a combination of stress from the day and his attitude “breaking the camels back”. I’ll be honest, I cried later thinking about it. He took a spanking I should have given to one of my sales guys.
I do spank him with a level head though, but not before trying other methods. We are clear on expectations and relevent punishment.
-
We talk. I want to know why he did what he did, why he is acting out et cetera. Usually I can find out that something is eating at him and we can address it as a team. I believe this teaches him that communication is the primary method of conflict resolution and that some conflicts don’t even exist, often misunderstandings. This is also a fantastic bonding opportunity every time.
-
Should he continue to break rules and act out of line he goes to time out with an explanation. (to think, gain perspective and understand he is not the authority figure in our dynamic)
-
If this doesn’t work he loses his allowance for the week. (loss is absolutely a consequence of poor decisions and actions)
-
Next is a loss of certain toys. (same concept as number three but more immediatly valuable to him)
-
After his punishment is over we talk again and I make sure he understands the lesson he was being taught, he usually does.
-
If he continues to act out, even after demonstrating an understanding that what he is doing is wrong, he gets spanked. If he repeats an offense again and again, we skip the first few steps as they proved not to work and he gets spanked. He knows this.
My son is very bright but also hard charging and bullheaded. He will do without just to make a point and undermine my authority in many cases. He will learn to respect authority and will respect me as his authority through an escalation of consequences. This is accurate for the real world.
I don’t believe I am teaching him to be violent. Many forms of punishment and understanding take place before a spanking and he knows the spanking is coming if he keeps pushing the line, which he does just to see how far he can push. I let him push and deprive himself of allowance, time and toys because I want him to be a hard charging, slow to back down guy, but one who is such with respect. So when he really hits the line he learns to be respectful in spite of himself.
If you have a tip to keep him in line after understanding conversation, time out, loss of priveleges and more conversation fail, please do let me know, seriously. If I can add another productive step before spanking I absolutely will.
[/quote]
Everything you said sounds reasonable. However, I do not believe you (or many others administer spankings without anger or frustration). I’m evolved enough to admit I have and I’m not comfortable with it. In fact, I’m horrified by it. Spankings will no longer be in my tool box. Like I said earlier, and I don’t believe for one minute your child is different - the loss of privilege or possession leaves more a teaching imprint than any REASONABLE spanking will.
At the end of the day, you’re using violence to get compliance and no, that manner of escalation as you call it does NOT occur in everyday legal polite society.
As for your psych comment, my brother is a professor of psych at an ivy league school. Not saying I am, but I have more than a passing interest and done my fair share of reading. I feel pretty good about my position. I feel ever better about my decision that my son won’t be spanked any more.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
I don’t believe I am teaching him to be violent. Many forms of punishment and understanding take place before a spanking and he knows the spanking is coming if he keeps pushing the line, which he does just to see how far he can push. I let him push and deprive himself of allowance, time and toys because I want him to be a hard charging, slow to back down guy, but one who is such with respect. So when he really hits the line he learns to be respectful in spite of himself.
[/quote]
And by the way, the above is so pregnant you’re about to give birth on the kitchen floor. “I let him push” sounds a lot like the boundary line is a moving target and inconsistent. I’m not even touching the part about how you believe you’re shaping him to be “hard charging”.
How old is your son?
[quote]Edevus wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]
My parents spanked me a limited amount of times (I think I could even list them because I remember them) and they also took away toys when I deserved it. I don’t know exactly what I learned, but it worked.
My father shouted at me many times as well (which felt quite violent), but I have zero bitter feelings towards him for this.
I don’t think things are as simple as “Spank, yes or no?”, but I will see that when it’s my time to have children.[/quote]
Nothing is simple when raising children. And to believe in “perfect” or that perfect is even necessary is wrong. We just need to be good enough. A misplaced spanking or yelling is not going to break anyone…a healthy human is quite durable and resilient.
Since you only occassionally received a spanking, I think it explains why you’re pretty ambivilent about using them in the future. Had they been routine custom in your household, I bet you’d be here either defending them and claiming “but I’m okay” or, you’d be condemning them. That’s just human nature.
Personally, I didn’t really get spankings. I quickly reached an age where I wouldn’t accept them.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
I don’t believe I am teaching him to be violent. Many forms of punishment and understanding take place before a spanking and he knows the spanking is coming if he keeps pushing the line, which he does just to see how far he can push. I let him push and deprive himself of allowance, time and toys because I want him to be a hard charging, slow to back down guy, but one who is such with respect. So when he really hits the line he learns to be respectful in spite of himself.
[/quote]
And by the way, the above is so pregnant you’re about to give birth on the kitchen floor. “I let him push” sounds a lot like the boundary line is a moving target and inconsistent. I’m not even touching the part about how you believe you’re shaping him to be “hard charging”.
How old is your son?[/quote]
You are misreading and assuming.
I’m letting him be who he is. We use a tiered punishment system, sometimes he responds early, sometimes he pushes. The choice is his, he knows the expectations and consequences for his actions every step of the way. If he wants to lose 20 minutes to a corner he can choose to. If he wants to lose his allowance or toy priveleges, his choice. If he wants to be spanked he can choose that too. My rules don’t change, his desire to follow them or not will, and spanking is the last resort to keep him in line, and it works every time.
I will understand, teach, coach, give to and take away from and yes, spank, but I won’t break his spirit in the process. I’m not instilling a personality in him, I’m nurturing the one he has while teaching him how to live appropriately. We can go back and forth on the merits of spanking if you’d like but I highly doubt either of us will agree.
I agree that spanking out of anger, as a release valve, is wrong and even abusive. Non-passionate spanking, as you called it, is a very effective parental tool which I believe leaves no lasting damage.
FWIW, I don’t use a belt. I always felt that was a little extreme. But, when the hand didn’t work, the belt did so I can’t hold it against my old man. I can tell you, had I not had a heavy handed father, I would have been in alternative schools, maybe juvie, maybe a military school… some kids are just tough and force is absolutely required. I could never hit my kid with a belt though, and he responds just fine to the system we have in place. I do spank him, but usually he comes around somewhere in the middle of it all.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Non-passionate spanking, as you called it, is a very effective parental tool which I believe leaves no lasting damage.
[/quote]
When you show me the above unicorn exists, it might change how I feel about spankings. I’ve heard some have been captured on tape (but its always grainy footage, or poor lighting), I’ve heard first and second hand accounts (from unreliable sources, some off their medication) and I’ve even heard of a base off in the desert that studied this stuff…but confirmed sightings are indeed rare and/or specious.
Hm, you know, there’s clearly got to be one best way to raise a child that applies to everyone everywhere in every circumstance for every child.
[quote]byukid wrote:
Hm, you know, there’s clearly got to be one best way to raise a child that applies to everyone everywhere in every circumstance for every child. [/quote]
Yes ship them off to boarding school and buy a dog.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Non-passionate spanking, as you called it, is a very effective parental tool which I believe leaves no lasting damage.
[/quote]
When you show me the above unicorn exists, it might change how I feel about spankings. I’ve heard some have been captured on tape (but its always grainy footage, or poor lighting), I’ve heard first and second hand accounts (from unreliable sources, some off their medication) and I’ve even heard of a base off in the desert that studied this stuff…but confirmed sightings are indeed rare and/or specious.[/quote]
You are talking to your unicorn. You show me the same the other way around. Also, if you truly believe what you are saying, why do you spank your kid at all?
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Lame. The family never should have publicized the act of punishing their children, they were asking for negative attention in a big way.
I remember having my mouth washed out with soap, getting spanked and occasionally belted (I would have gladly chosen to eat hot sauce), sent to bed with no dinner and being grounded with no tv, radio, phone privilege or use of the backyard pool.
In fact, I would have chosen hot sauce and a cold shower over almost all of the punishments I received.
My punishments are common and generally accepted forms of correction but they could all be twisted in to abuse.
I could have choked on soap.
Spanking is controversial and the alleged abusive aspect of it is obvious.
No dinner could turn in to a media field day of starvation and neglect
Being grounded could be considered extreme isolation…
It’s all so subjective.
I love my parents, they raised me to be a productive, active member of society and I wasn’t an easy kid. Their intent was always love, they always explained the why behind the what and hoped lessons stuck. It sounds like this was the case for the linked family. It’s not like they were just being sadistic assholes deriving pleasure from the kids pain.
This is a bullshit conviction.[/quote]
You’re pretty late to the “my parents did this and that but I’m okay” brag…that was in the original hot sauce mom thread. There is ample evidence within these very forums that you are not as okay as you proclaim.
Do you have children? If you do, I want to start a serious dialogue, because I’m going thru this right now myself.
[/quote]
No brag. Personal, anecdotal evidence.
If you think I’m so fucked up, why do you want my parenting advice?
But yes, I have a son. I’m not married, I had a gf a few years ago. I love my son and would give my life for him, he was not planned. The girl and I are no longer together but we are on good terms and share the responsibility of our son equally.
I’m all for a serious conversation. If you deem your thread the right place I’m fine with it. If you prefer pm that is ok too. My preference is your thread though, I’m open to insight from you and other posters…[/quote]
LOL I’m not looking for your parenting advice, trust me. A spirited debate, yes. Advice no.
First, it’s fallacious to think that b/c your parents, or a generation did one thing, that it’s the “best” way to do it or that it’s okay. We pretty much come to be conditioned to think or believe something is normal if we’re exposed to it long enough. Hell, prisoners and the abused even learn to love their imprisoners/abusers, to give you an extreme example. So, to say “my parents did this” or, “this generation did that” followed by “and we’re okay” is a non-starter. There is no evidence “we’re okay” or, that you wouldn’t be better off with a different approach or, that you’re merely just conditioned to repeat a cycle (common) as your parents were.
As for me, I’m struggling with what I deem to be appropriate punishment. You have a son. I assume from your post you’re not against corporal punishment. I have an honest question; have you ever struck your son when you’re angry? I’m willing to bet you have. I too have spanked my son and I’ve usually been at the end of my wits or angry when I’ve done so. I’m not comfortable with this and if you love your son, you shouldn’t be either. If spanking is truly “corrective” and is not merely a release valve for your anger (it’s a slippery slope), then why so many parents do it as a last resort and usually with anger? I’m not saying a spanking cannot be given dispassionately - I know it can. But it’s rare from what I’ve seen…extremely rare. A spanking is usually the default position of a loss of control by the parent, frustration or anger. I’m pretty sure that I’m personally finished with the spanking thing (which was very infrequent for me anyway). I think intelligent parents (you might want to call them pussies right?) can think of better corrective measures.
And as far as an argument by anectdote, for every alleged person you can cite that got spankings “or worse”, I know one that received the same and is fucked up.
Anyway, it’s just a subject I’ve been thinking about earnestly as my 5 year son challenges my patience like 5 years olds are want to do. I have NEVER struck him hard, never left a mark, never more than a swat or two on the butt and it’s something that has occurred very infrequently yet every single time I’ve done it, I’m very troubled by it…b/c of the EMOTION I felt when doing so. Think about it…and be honest.
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]
I’m going to ignore your first paragraph. Psychology is a shaky science and neither one of us are psychologists, that will be a ridiculous conversation based purely on speculation.
I have spanked my son out of anger and instantly regretted it. I felt horrible. He really didn’t even deserve it. He was being a brat, had intentionally broken some rules and needed to be punished but I did bend him over quickly. It was a combination of stress from the day and his attitude “breaking the camels back”. I’ll be honest, I cried later thinking about it. He took a spanking I should have given to one of my sales guys.
I do spank him with a level head though, but not before trying other methods. We are clear on expectations and relevent punishment.
-
We talk. I want to know why he did what he did, why he is acting out et cetera. Usually I can find out that something is eating at him and we can address it as a team. I believe this teaches him that communication is the primary method of conflict resolution and that some conflicts don’t even exist, often misunderstandings. This is also a fantastic bonding opportunity every time.
-
Should he continue to break rules and act out of line he goes to time out with an explanation. (to think, gain perspective and understand he is not the authority figure in our dynamic)
-
If this doesn’t work he loses his allowance for the week. (loss is absolutely a consequence of poor decisions and actions)
-
Next is a loss of certain toys. (same concept as number three but more immediatly valuable to him)
-
After his punishment is over we talk again and I make sure he understands the lesson he was being taught, he usually does.
-
If he continues to act out, even after demonstrating an understanding that what he is doing is wrong, he gets spanked. If he repeats an offense again and again, we skip the first few steps as they proved not to work and he gets spanked. He knows this.
My son is very bright but also hard charging and bullheaded. He will do without just to make a point and undermine my authority in many cases. He will learn to respect authority and will respect me as his authority through an escalation of consequences. This is accurate for the real world.
I don’t believe I am teaching him to be violent. Many forms of punishment and understanding take place before a spanking and he knows the spanking is coming if he keeps pushing the line, which he does just to see how far he can push. I let him push and deprive himself of allowance, time and toys because I want him to be a hard charging, slow to back down guy, but one who is such with respect. So when he really hits the line he learns to be respectful in spite of himself.
If you have a tip to keep him in line after understanding conversation, time out, loss of priveleges and more conversation fail, please do let me know, seriously. If I can add another productive step before spanking I absolutely will.
[/quote]
Everything you said sounds reasonable. However, I do not believe you (or many others administer spankings without anger or frustration). I’m evolved enough to admit I have and I’m not comfortable with it. In fact, I’m horrified by it. Spankings will no longer be in my tool box. Like I said earlier, and I don’t believe for one minute your child is different - the loss of privilege or possession leaves more a teaching imprint than any REASONABLE spanking will.
At the end of the day, you’re using violence to get compliance and no, that manner of escalation as you call it does NOT occur in everyday legal polite society.
As for your psych comment, my brother is a professor of psych at an ivy league school. Not saying I am, but I have more than a passing interest and done my fair share of reading. I feel pretty good about my position. I feel ever better about my decision that my son won’t be spanked any more.[/quote]
I completely missed this post. I have spanked him out of anger. I mentioned this and will never do it again.
When it comes time for a spanking, If I feel a little hot, I cool down first. He goes to his room and waits for it. It just takes a little discipline. Plus, I know he’s been dreading my appearence and naturally I go easy on him, the punishment has largely been administered mentally, the point successfully made.
In society, say a job, issues are escalated until you are fired. I can’t and wouldn’t fire my son if he refuses flat out to fall in line. Spanking is the end of the road, the last resort and I have no qualms over using it responsibly. Again, if you have something add, an idea to postpone spanking further, please do. We go through the loss of privelege and possession and it usually does work, I’m not denying this.
And I don’t care what your brother does. I’m not talking to him. I took psychology and sociology classes as electives in college and read books too. I’m still not going to follow this tangent. The only psychology I’m interested in is sales/management psychology. We can start a seperate thread for that if you want, I’m absolutely all ears for insight here.
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Non-passionate spanking, as you called it, is a very effective parental tool which I believe leaves no lasting damage.
[/quote]
When you show me the above unicorn exists, it might change how I feel about spankings. I’ve heard some have been captured on tape (but its always grainy footage, or poor lighting), I’ve heard first and second hand accounts (from unreliable sources, some off their medication) and I’ve even heard of a base off in the desert that studied this stuff…but confirmed sightings are indeed rare and/or specious.[/quote]
You are talking to your unicorn. You show me the same the other way around. Also, if you truly believe what you are saying, why do you spank your kid at all?
[/quote]
In case you missed it, I decided I will no longer spank my child. And it’s not even like I gave epic, or frequent spankings.
I have a question for you; since you seem to have this credit card “tiered” punishment system, and an escalation of infractions results in a spanking, yet he still does it, exactly how effective is spanking?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Christine wrote:
A fallacy which you chose to repeat.
He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else. [/quote]
It was in the article that was posted in the OP. It was brought into the argument.[/quote]
Are you really that dense or is this some sort of attempt at humor?
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Lame. The family never should have publicized the act of punishing their children, they were asking for negative attention in a big way.
I remember having my mouth washed out with soap, getting spanked and occasionally belted (I would have gladly chosen to eat hot sauce), sent to bed with no dinner and being grounded with no tv, radio, phone privilege or use of the backyard pool.
In fact, I would have chosen hot sauce and a cold shower over almost all of the punishments I received.
My punishments are common and generally accepted forms of correction but they could all be twisted in to abuse.
I could have choked on soap.
Spanking is controversial and the alleged abusive aspect of it is obvious.
No dinner could turn in to a media field day of starvation and neglect
Being grounded could be considered extreme isolation…
It’s all so subjective.
I love my parents, they raised me to be a productive, active member of society and I wasn’t an easy kid. Their intent was always love, they always explained the why behind the what and hoped lessons stuck. It sounds like this was the case for the linked family. It’s not like they were just being sadistic assholes deriving pleasure from the kids pain.
This is a bullshit conviction.[/quote]
You’re pretty late to the “my parents did this and that but I’m okay” brag…that was in the original hot sauce mom thread. There is ample evidence within these very forums that you are not as okay as you proclaim.
Do you have children? If you do, I want to start a serious dialogue, because I’m going thru this right now myself.
[/quote]
No brag. Personal, anecdotal evidence.
If you think I’m so fucked up, why do you want my parenting advice?
But yes, I have a son. I’m not married, I had a gf a few years ago. I love my son and would give my life for him, he was not planned. The girl and I are no longer together but we are on good terms and share the responsibility of our son equally.
I’m all for a serious conversation. If you deem your thread the right place I’m fine with it. If you prefer pm that is ok too. My preference is your thread though, I’m open to insight from you and other posters…[/quote]
LOL I’m not looking for your parenting advice, trust me. A spirited debate, yes. Advice no.
First, it’s fallacious to think that b/c your parents, or a generation did one thing, that it’s the “best” way to do it or that it’s okay. We pretty much come to be conditioned to think or believe something is normal if we’re exposed to it long enough. Hell, prisoners and the abused even learn to love their imprisoners/abusers, to give you an extreme example. So, to say “my parents did this” or, “this generation did that” followed by “and we’re okay” is a non-starter. There is no evidence “we’re okay” or, that you wouldn’t be better off with a different approach or, that you’re merely just conditioned to repeat a cycle (common) as your parents were.
As for me, I’m struggling with what I deem to be appropriate punishment. You have a son. I assume from your post you’re not against corporal punishment. I have an honest question; have you ever struck your son when you’re angry? I’m willing to bet you have. I too have spanked my son and I’ve usually been at the end of my wits or angry when I’ve done so. I’m not comfortable with this and if you love your son, you shouldn’t be either. If spanking is truly “corrective” and is not merely a release valve for your anger (it’s a slippery slope), then why so many parents do it as a last resort and usually with anger? I’m not saying a spanking cannot be given dispassionately - I know it can. But it’s rare from what I’ve seen…extremely rare. A spanking is usually the default position of a loss of control by the parent, frustration or anger. I’m pretty sure that I’m personally finished with the spanking thing (which was very infrequent for me anyway). I think intelligent parents (you might want to call them pussies right?) can think of better corrective measures.
And as far as an argument by anectdote, for every alleged person you can cite that got spankings “or worse”, I know one that received the same and is fucked up.
Anyway, it’s just a subject I’ve been thinking about earnestly as my 5 year son challenges my patience like 5 years olds are want to do. I have NEVER struck him hard, never left a mark, never more than a swat or two on the butt and it’s something that has occurred very infrequently yet every single time I’ve done it, I’m very troubled by it…b/c of the EMOTION I felt when doing so. Think about it…and be honest.
And what are we teaching children when we strike them? That violence is the means to get what you want? What exactly is the lesson there? Personally, I think taking away my son’s Xbox (for example) or any other privilege will carry far greater consequences than the temporary sting of my hand across his backside.
[/quote]
I’m going to ignore your first paragraph. Psychology is a shaky science and neither one of us are psychologists, that will be a ridiculous conversation based purely on speculation.
I have spanked my son out of anger and instantly regretted it. I felt horrible. He really didn’t even deserve it. He was being a brat, had intentionally broken some rules and needed to be punished but I did bend him over quickly. It was a combination of stress from the day and his attitude “breaking the camels back”. I’ll be honest, I cried later thinking about it. He took a spanking I should have given to one of my sales guys.
I do spank him with a level head though, but not before trying other methods. We are clear on expectations and relevent punishment.
-
We talk. I want to know why he did what he did, why he is acting out et cetera. Usually I can find out that something is eating at him and we can address it as a team. I believe this teaches him that communication is the primary method of conflict resolution and that some conflicts don’t even exist, often misunderstandings. This is also a fantastic bonding opportunity every time.
-
Should he continue to break rules and act out of line he goes to time out with an explanation. (to think, gain perspective and understand he is not the authority figure in our dynamic)
-
If this doesn’t work he loses his allowance for the week. (loss is absolutely a consequence of poor decisions and actions)
-
Next is a loss of certain toys. (same concept as number three but more immediatly valuable to him)
-
After his punishment is over we talk again and I make sure he understands the lesson he was being taught, he usually does.
-
If he continues to act out, even after demonstrating an understanding that what he is doing is wrong, he gets spanked. If he repeats an offense again and again, we skip the first few steps as they proved not to work and he gets spanked. He knows this.
My son is very bright but also hard charging and bullheaded. He will do without just to make a point and undermine my authority in many cases. He will learn to respect authority and will respect me as his authority through an escalation of consequences. This is accurate for the real world.
I don’t believe I am teaching him to be violent. Many forms of punishment and understanding take place before a spanking and he knows the spanking is coming if he keeps pushing the line, which he does just to see how far he can push. I let him push and deprive himself of allowance, time and toys because I want him to be a hard charging, slow to back down guy, but one who is such with respect. So when he really hits the line he learns to be respectful in spite of himself.
If you have a tip to keep him in line after understanding conversation, time out, loss of priveleges and more conversation fail, please do let me know, seriously. If I can add another productive step before spanking I absolutely will.
[/quote]
Everything you said sounds reasonable. However, I do not believe you (or many others administer spankings without anger or frustration). I’m evolved enough to admit I have and I’m not comfortable with it. In fact, I’m horrified by it. Spankings will no longer be in my tool box. Like I said earlier, and I don’t believe for one minute your child is different - the loss of privilege or possession leaves more a teaching imprint than any REASONABLE spanking will.
At the end of the day, you’re using violence to get compliance and no, that manner of escalation as you call it does NOT occur in everyday legal polite society.
As for your psych comment, my brother is a professor of psych at an ivy league school. Not saying I am, but I have more than a passing interest and done my fair share of reading. I feel pretty good about my position. I feel ever better about my decision that my son won’t be spanked any more.[/quote]
I completely missed this post. I have spanked him out of anger. I mentioned this and will never do it again.
When it comes time for a spanking, If I feel a little hot, I cool down first. He goes to his room and waits for it. It just takes a little discipline. Plus, I know he’s been dreading my appearence and naturally I go easy on him, the punishment has largely been administered mentally, the point successfully made.
In society, say a job, issues are escalated until you are fired. I can’t and wouldn’t fire my son if he refuses flat out to fall in line. Spanking is the end of the road, the last resort and I have no qualms over using it responsibly. Again, if you have something add, an idea to postpone spanking further, please do. We go through the loss of privelege and possession and it usually does work, I’m not denying this.
And I don’t care what your brother does. I’m not talking to him. I took psychology and sociology classes as electives in college and read books too. I’m still not going to follow this tangent. The only psychology I’m interested in is sales/management psychology. We can start a seperate thread for that if you want, I’m absolutely all ears for insight here.
[/quote]
I never intended to go on a tangent. I was responding to your quip. By all means, start the other thread.
I don’t have the answer you (or myself) is seeking, however rhetorical or sincere you may be about the question. All I know is that I do not believe it works, I don’t like how it makes me feel, and I’ll no longer use it. And given your reply above, I’m honestly not sure which I’m more uncomfortable with - a heat of the moment reasonable spanking out of frustration or, a planned dispassionate spanking. Both bother me now that you mention it, and perhaps the latter moreso.
I don’t think it works. Period. Your case study of one proves it doesn’t (at least in your household) - else he would only require a single spanking ever since by your own admission, he understands the rules, the tiers and the outcomes, yet still manages to get spanked.
So back to my original point that you want to avoid merely b/c we’re not trained psychologists. Do you spank b/c you made an informed, educated decision to do so? Or do you spank b/c you were spanked?
If you made an informed, educated decision to spank, please enlighten me as to where you secured your evidence that the same is an effective means of punishment. And what are you doing wrong that it doesn’t work? He knows he will get one, by your own admission, yet happily proceeds along anyway in some instances. Don’t worry HG, I’m not shooting any arrows at you, it doesn’t work in my house either.
If you did not make an informed, educated decision to spank, I suspect you spank b/c you were spanked and I again refer you to my original point on that matter.
And, I’m troubled you don’t see the disconnect between a waitress getting fired and violence. One is presumably an “equitable outcome” based on certain behavior and assuming the firing was warranted, the other is merely assault and punishment which, in polite society, we have surrendered the right of same to the State. Nowhere in society do we legally assault someone to punish them.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
LOL she’s got your number…and the stamina to argue with you. I vote she follows you to PWI.[/quote]
Nope. Arguing with someone who sincerely believes in fables and superstitions is dissatisfying.
I’d prefer to keep those folks over at PWI. They never fail to amuse though.
[quote]Christine wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Christine wrote:
A fallacy which you chose to repeat.
He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else. [/quote]
It was in the article that was posted in the OP. It was brought into the argument.[/quote]
Are you really that dense or is this some sort of attempt at humor?[/quote]
Trust me, he’s that dense. It was a complete reading comprehension fail on his part. I’ll warn you now, given that his bible states something along the lines of spare the rod, spoil the child, and that he believes the bible is the unerring word of his almighty, you will find his position on this matter quite irreversible. There is no discussion to be had here with him on matters where religion can be invoked. He will not even admit he interpreted the article incorrectly.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Non-passionate spanking, as you called it, is a very effective parental tool which I believe leaves no lasting damage.
[/quote]
When you show me the above unicorn exists, it might change how I feel about spankings. I’ve heard some have been captured on tape (but its always grainy footage, or poor lighting), I’ve heard first and second hand accounts (from unreliable sources, some off their medication) and I’ve even heard of a base off in the desert that studied this stuff…but confirmed sightings are indeed rare and/or specious.[/quote]
You are talking to your unicorn. You show me the same the other way around. Also, if you truly believe what you are saying, why do you spank your kid at all?
[/quote]
In case you missed it, I decided I will no longer spank my child. And it’s not even like I gave epic, or frequent spankings.
I have a question for you; since you seem to have this credit card “tiered” punishment system, and an escalation of infractions results in a spanking, yet he still does it, exactly how effective is spanking?[/quote]
I find it effective. Again, he usually comes around much earlier but when a spanking is warranted it works.
[quote]Christine wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
LOL she’s got your number…and the stamina to argue with you. I vote she follows you to PWI.[/quote]
Nope. Arguing with someone who sincerely believes in fables and superstitions is dissatisfying.
I’d prefer to keep those folks over at PWI. They never fail to amuse though.[/quote]
Ah, I see you DO know of the good “brother chris”.
Well, at least he’s sincere…for now.