[quote]confusion wrote:
The only exception I can think of is gymnasts who have incredible biceps development while pretty much exclusively training with their BW.
And they have a great V taper also,ie.back and shoulders. guess what else they.do boys and girls? Is it pushups to get that big chest and triceps???No, Its Dips!!! So,there we have it. A guy who wants to train at home with limited equipment and some good answers. [/quote]
They are also exceptional athletes and genetic freaks.
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
The only exception I can think of is gymnasts who have incredible biceps development while pretty much exclusively training with their BW.
And they have a great V taper also,ie.back and shoulders. guess what else they.do boys and girls? Is it pushups to get that big chest and triceps???No, Its Dips!!! So,there we have it. A guy who wants to train at home with limited equipment and some good answers. [/quote]
Alright alright you win.
usmccds423 and I, despite being from different countries, were both sworn to secrecy by our respective governments on the ability of bodyweight pull ups to build incredible biceps, shoulders and lats. You figured it out. There’s an international military conspiracy going on.
Our lats are so wide from all the bodyweight pull ups we’ve done, we can actually fly. If you want proof, you’re not going to get it because we would have to kill you. [/quote]
I think you may have said too much…
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I think with the gymnast example, we have to keep in mind that people are generally thinking of olympic level gymnasts when referencing great development. We’re talking about genetically amazing specimens spending decades of intense daily (and usually multiple times a day) training. That will definitely get results, but it’s not fair to say that it means the movements are the answer. If those same gymnasts spent that amount of time/effort dedicated to bodybuilding, they’d probably be olympia level.
I still think dips and chins are some of the most awesome upper body movements you can do, but just want to keep things in perspective.[/quote]
Absolutely.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]dt79 wrote:
[quote]confusion wrote:
The only exception I can think of is gymnasts who have incredible biceps development while pretty much exclusively training with their BW.
And they have a great V taper also,ie.back and shoulders. guess what else they.do boys and girls? Is it pushups to get that big chest and triceps???No, Its Dips!!! So,there we have it. A guy who wants to train at home with limited equipment and some good answers. [/quote]
Alright alright you win.
usmccds423 and I, despite being from different countries, were both sworn to secrecy by our respective governments on the ability of bodyweight pull ups to build incredible biceps, shoulders and lats. You figured it out. There’s an international military conspiracy going on.
Our lats are so wide from all the bodyweight pull ups we’ve done, we can actually fly. If you want proof, you’re not going to get it because we would have to kill you. [/quote]
I think you may have said too much…[/quote]
I couldn’t help it. I was confused.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
But pure bodyweight exercises don’t accomplish too much after a point, unless you add resistance. Once you’re able to do 30 or so consecutive pushups, you’re not going to get much more out of them.[/quote]
I’m afraid that is your belief because you yourself haven’t tried it.
I’m willing to bet that you yourself would have a hard time hitting 30 rigid push ups. 1 second up, 2 seconds down. Chest touching the floor, full pause at the top.
Theory is great, but without evidence it’s ignorance.
[quote]Jarvan wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
But pure bodyweight exercises don’t accomplish too much after a point, unless you add resistance. Once you’re able to do 30 or so consecutive pushups, you’re not going to get much more out of them.[/quote]
I’m afraid that is your belief because you yourself haven’t tried it.
I’m willing to bet that you yourself would have a hard time hitting 30 rigid push ups. 1 second up, 2 seconds down. Chest touching the floor, full pause at the top.
Theory is great, but without evidence it’s ignorance. [/quote]
There was a time when I could hit 30 dead hang pull-ups and my back was not large by any stretch of the imagination. As a matter of fact I was the lightest and leanest I had ever been at the time, as an adult (153lbs) anyway, which I believe was the single most important factor in my pull-up success.
Another, often overlooked factor, is practice. Pull-up skill has an impact on the number of reps one can complete, without question.
Maybe that’s just my experience on the matter.
[quote]Jarvan wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
But pure bodyweight exercises don’t accomplish too much after a point, unless you add resistance. Once you’re able to do 30 or so consecutive pushups, you’re not going to get much more out of them.[/quote]
I’m afraid that is your belief because you yourself haven’t tried it.
I’m willing to bet that you yourself would have a hard time hitting 30 rigid push ups. 1 second up, 2 seconds down. Chest touching the floor, full pause at the top.
Theory is great, but without evidence it’s ignorance. [/quote]
Regardless of how LoRez would perform on your experiment, do you think this would build muscle for him? Something can be hard and also a waste of time,or even counterproductive to meeting one’s goals. If you’re implying that theory is great,but without evidence that Jarvan accepts,its ignorance…You are heading down an arrogant and illogical road. Confusion
[quote]confusion wrote:
[quote]Jarvan wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
But pure bodyweight exercises don’t accomplish too much after a point, unless you add resistance. Once you’re able to do 30 or so consecutive pushups, you’re not going to get much more out of them.[/quote]
I’m afraid that is your belief because you yourself haven’t tried it.
I’m willing to bet that you yourself would have a hard time hitting 30 rigid push ups. 1 second up, 2 seconds down. Chest touching the floor, full pause at the top.
Theory is great, but without evidence it’s ignorance. [/quote]
Regardless of how LoRez would perform on your experiment, do you think this would build muscle for him? Something can be hard and also a waste of time,or even counterproductive to meeting one’s goals. If you’re implying that theory is great,but without evidence that Jarvan accepts,its ignorance…You are heading down an arrogant and illogical road. Confusion
[/quote]
For someone to state that push ups wouldn’t help adding muscle… Is ignorance. There are people who bench for days and still can’t add muscle. There’s a time and place for any method or routine, but denouncing pushups as a poor method of adding muscle is again ignorant. Sure, you wont be standing on the olympia stage only using push ups, but how many of us are actually aspiring to do that? Are any of us, including the advanced ones, even remotely close?
Dont put words in my mouth. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to say otherwise to lorezs statement. Never did I say what I dictate to be true is true. The only truth is what you believe to be true. With that said, spouting things without having evidence to back it up makes it hard for anyone to see your side.
And by all means, please elaborate how push ups are counter productive and/or waste of time for a beginner trying to gain muscle or get stronger. Perhaps some personal experience would be a good starting point.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Jarvan wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
But pure bodyweight exercises don’t accomplish too much after a point, unless you add resistance. Once you’re able to do 30 or so consecutive pushups, you’re not going to get much more out of them.[/quote]
I’m afraid that is your belief because you yourself haven’t tried it.
I’m willing to bet that you yourself would have a hard time hitting 30 rigid push ups. 1 second up, 2 seconds down. Chest touching the floor, full pause at the top.
Theory is great, but without evidence it’s ignorance. [/quote]
There was a time when I could hit 30 dead hang pull-ups and my back was not large by any stretch of the imagination. As a matter of fact I was the lightest and leanest I had ever been at the time, as an adult (153lbs) anyway, which I believe was the single most important factor in my pull-up success.
Another, often overlooked factor, is practice. Pull-up skill has an impact on the number of reps one can complete, without question.
Maybe that’s just my experience on the matter. [/quote]
Absolutely. Skill is integral in any movement. Skill/method whatever you wanna call it. Pull ups to the chin don’t always induce enough scapular retraction to fully engage your back, namely your lats. Pull ups to the chest(below the clavicle), however, require not only strength, but also proper mobility to achieve. Which in turn fully activate the muscles.
You can lift for reps, or you can lift for contraction. I can quickly bust out 10 quick pull ups, or can squeeze and hold the top position driving my chest into the bar for five seconds.
I exclusively train with bw for pull ups. But weighted pull ups are never a problem.
I get where your coming from Jarvan,however,anecdotal evidence comes from testimonials from people like you and me,its not science and frankly,its not evidence. Secondly,I was one of those military guys that did lots of pushups without gaining muscle. That’s how I know for myself.
So before we get to the point where you tell me that I didn’t do them to a standard you accept,how about you point to an article on this site that lauds the praises of pushups for getting pec size and strength? The quote about truth,tells me that we all know the truth all the time,which I find a bit silly,but I digress…
There’s a time and place for any method or routine, but denouncing pushups as a poor method of adding muscle is again ignorant.
Not to be argumentative,but I find both of these statements false…Confusion
I like ladder push ups myself. Been seeing good results for pec growth. I actually start off with dips, really focusing on pec contraction, and then move down to the floor doing the same, and then elevate my hands by having a bar in the rack and finish off from there.
I stand corrected. This guy I trust
[quote]confusion wrote:
I stand corrected. This guy I trust[/quote]
I stole the idea from Matt Kroczaleski and John Meadows. It’s not my primary movement, but it’s a finisher I put in whenever I have the time.
Since this is the beginner forum, we can talk about push-ups for beginner development. At 18, I was 6’ tall and weighed 140 soaking wet. All I had done before that was bench press everyday when I was 16. Didn’t know much about training, so I started doing the p90x videos, which heavily focus on push-up variations and other bodyweight exercises for muscle development.
After several months, and refining my diet of course, I managed to add about 15lbs of mostly lean bw. Obviously a lot of factors were at play, and I doubt I could replicate that progress after leaving the beginner stage, but it worked well at the time. Given, I likely could have grown faster w/ a typical iron program, but I was happy with the progress.
[quote]TX iron wrote:
Since this is the beginner forum, we can talk about push-ups for beginner development. At 18, I was 6’ tall and weighed 140 soaking wet. All I had done before that was bench press everyday when I was 16. Didn’t know much about training, so I started doing the p90x videos, which heavily focus on push-up variations and other bodyweight exercises for muscle development. After several months, and refining my diet of course, I managed to add about 15lbs of mostly lean bw. Obviously a lot of factors were at play, and I doubt I could replicate that progress after leaving the beginner stage, but it worked well at the time. Given, I likely could have grown faster w/ a typical iron program, but I was happy with the progress.[/quote]
To paraphrase Patton, an ok program executed violently and with intensity is far superior to a great program that is half assed. This perfectly demonstrates that idea, and is something that I think gets missed out a lot on during the discussion of lifting. Great story.
My brother does only bodyweight movements, and he is a badass. Sure, I have more total muscle, but I wouldn’t want to get in a fight with him, and he can do multiple one arm pullups, yet never trains with any extra weight. Of course, he is training for American Ninja Warrior. BW movements can build a physique that many would envy, but you won’t be getting tons of hypertrophy from them if they are your only option.
[quote]Jarvan wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
But pure bodyweight exercises don’t accomplish too much after a point, unless you add resistance. Once you’re able to do 30 or so consecutive pushups, you’re not going to get much more out of them.[/quote]
I’m afraid that is your belief because you yourself haven’t tried it.
I’m willing to bet that you yourself would have a hard time hitting 30 rigid push ups. 1 second up, 2 seconds down. Chest touching the floor, full pause at the top.
Theory is great, but without evidence it’s ignorance. [/quote]
I made my statement based on my own experience and the experience of people I’ve personally known who’ve spent plenty of time training pushups, some of whom were former military, some who weren’t. It wasn’t theory.
Once upon a time, I honestly believed that all you had to do was more and more pushups to get bigger, and do that for awhile. I’d worked myself up to doing 300 pushups, 300 situps every other day, but never saw those benefits. These were good chest to the ground, fully locked out pushups.
Going from barely being able to do one pushup, to being able to do 30 consecutively, yes, there’s muscular growth. Once you hit that point, there doesn’t seem to be much more improvement in size, without additional resistance.
My point wasn’t that pushups were a useless exercise, but that if all you’re going to do is bodyweight pushups for chest and arm growth, after a point you hit diminishing returns as far as size is concerned.
Maybe I am ignorant on something, but I’m not sure what it is.
The debate is entertaining, but I think we’d all agree that push-ups and pull-ups are both great movement patterns. The only question is loading / intensity. Pushups are easier than pullups so require more loading, and when we’re talking about BW training or lack of equipment we might assume loading (with weight) isn’t that easy to do. Hence, as some people have mentioned, using density of work and/or prolonged eccentrics to make push-ups harder.
I also did push-ups as a skinny kid without gaining any muscle or much strength. I couldn’t do very many pull-ups though, despite low bodyweight, because I wasn’t strong. I can now do over 20 strict pullups with a much higher bodyweight, and I have decent back development, but my biceps are a weak point. It doesn’t mean that pull-ups don’t build biceps, just that they haven’t in my case. People are different and respond to different things (obviously) so I’m not sure the “exercise X doesn’t build muslce Y” is useful, when it’s a proven movement pattern.
[quote]RampantBadger wrote:
Also re pushups: with strict form and really focusing on tension, slow negatives etc you can get some good chest stimulation…
Thanks for the video, I now have a dip station. So I’m sure that will help with chest development.