Hey there,
Been having some issues recently, symptoms of low T but my levels are high 1080, and SHBG 120. Free T was normal.
Tried everything from losing weight, nettle supplements, high protein, low protein and just can’t get back to normal.
Was hoping to try TRT but not sure if it’s possible with already high T.
Also have MTHFR, not sure if that has anything to do with it.
Any ideas, anyone?
Post actual lab results. Hard to imagine your free T is very good with shbg that high.
What he said. “Normal”, according to the range your doctor goes by can be anything from horrible to great.
Free T labs are not accurate and are almost useless, SHBG at 120 I don’t see how Free T could be considered good in the context that you feel normal.
The Free T calculator has your Free T percentage at 9.57 ng/dL = 0.886 % when Total T and SHBG are plugged in with 2-3% being normal.
You’re not even close. Vince (moderator) on Excelmale has MTHFR and is on TRT, you might hit him up with questions as I’m sure he knows more on the subject.
@systemlord @dragon1952 ncsugrad2002 (can only tag 2 users for some reason) Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Here are the labs
Albumin: 4.82 g/dL
SHBG 118.80
Test: 1096 ng/dl
Free test: 9.55 ng/dl
Free test: 0.9%
Bio available test: 250ng/dL
Bio available test: 22.80%
Yes I agree doctors range of ‘normal’ for anything can be unhelpful at best. Should have checked that. Hopefully will get some actually useful info here.
Will hit up Vince as well, thank you. I have honestly tried everything, I got down from 117kg to 85kg, spent 19 months detoxing mercury, plastics etc. Tried to shift estrogen using DIM. Tried to get SHBG down with boron, nettle, avena sativa.
What you have can be fixed only by TRT and it will take relatively high dose to overcome this shbg
This isn’t quite as bad as mine was (4.1 at one point) but it’s not good at all either. Most people feel better somewhere around 30’s (very rough number and it varies widely depending on the person) but yeah, you aren’t even close.
I’d be looking at TRT if I was you.
@vonko1988 Thanks, that’s very reassuring to hear. What sort of dose would be normal to start in a situation similar to that. I’ll run everything by my doctor first, just be good to have as much info as possible to present to her.
Here there are way more knowledgeable people than me but I would start with 200mg weekly split in two
Somewhere in the 150-200mg per week, split to 2-3 doses a week should be a good place to start
I think with this high shbg he shouldnt do more than two because with frequent injections you do not decrease it much
@tension22
And then again, it may NOT.
The common theme on this board and with most of the doctors is … when you have high SHBG, “throw a lot of T at it” to bring it down.
Like you, I was an anomaly. In the beginning, I had natural T over 1000, very HIGH SHBG, and lousy Free T as expected.
I hope you will keep this thread alive with your progress and how well T brings down your SHBG.
Damn man, thanks for documenting all of that. I read for an hour, then realised I was still in 2018! I scanned the rest, and few things jumped out.
I was also suffering from panic attacks, and pin pointed that to mercury toxicity from an amalgam filling + MTHFR (30% effective detox pathways).
Not sure if any of that resonates with you.
It’s probably not in your head, but toxin related. If not mercury, take your pick from the other 1000+ toxins.
It takes a ton of time to properly detox, 2-5 years but good results after 1 year. Mine were literally crippling, thought I had 2 mins left of life etc. Got to the point of having them daily, but not had one in a year after addressing metals.
I also tried experimenting with NO supplements, L-arg did nothing but these worked: HumanN, Neo40, 30 Tablets
I have been experimenting with so much stuff, for all sorts of issues relating to mercury and MTHFR but have had periods where everything has felt normal or even great and better than normal. I feel like there is a solution to this, but it’s always just out of reach. Or never lasts. It’s like my body keeps readjusting to any solution I find that works for a few days.
Also tried High dose niacin protocol (like 3000mg a day tritiation from 50mg + co factors + 1 hour of sauna) was the best I have felt maybe forever libido wise. But only for 3 days at the end (this is a detox protocol).
Thanks for sharing your journey, really appreciated. I’ll read the whole thing over the next week. If you want any extra details about things I have mentioned just ask.
I do sort of wish you’d tried injections tho, at least as a test (maybe you did and it was in the bit I skipped). But I’ll take the reins on that, and let you know how it goes for me.
Yes, the thread is long and dry. I wanted to write what I was doing in a journal, and wanted it online just in case it could help someone. But it doesn’t keep you on the edge of your seat unfortunately.
Unrelated to all of this, all of my fillings were checked and changed to non metal over the years. I also tested my office for airborne mold contamination and found nothing. I sprayed bleach-solutions on the junctions of wall/floors where I thought moisture might reside (humid climate).
I have always said that my problems were much more convoluted than the guys on this board — and every step of the way, my goal has been to eliminate as many unknowns as possible.
You posted a link to a thai site, so I don’t know if you are in Thailand or not – but Proviron is legal there. It didn’t work for me, but I think that had to do with my other drug, Danazol, and I don’t think they play well together.
I stated in my journal that I wish I had tried something else before TRT, because once on TRT - there is no way to get clean results on whether something else works.
I would have tried Danazol and Proviron low-dose; and if it shut my own T down, so be it - I ended up on TRT anyway.
You have probably figured out that I am the “red headed step child” on this board and my opinions are not given much credence. However, everything I do has been backed up with before and after labs (blood, saliva and urine).
I don’t notice any references to Boron. Boron is the only thing that lowered my SHBG, but just like you, I started with such a high amount, it isn’t able to bring it down much. It WON’T hurt you; and you can read studies where doctors are promoting Boron supplementation for other reasons. The best Boron IMO is here.
Guys here don’t have a true understanding of SHBG and will tell you that you have high SHBG because of something you are doing wrong or whatever, yet the average guy here doesn’t have insane levels. Two of the doctors I consulted have said that some people are “genetically prone to high SHBG”.
And all the Testosterone in the world isn’t going to change my genetic predisposition to high SHBG. My T levels were pushed above 3000 and SHBG didn’t budge. You can give up a thousand things (I did) – and your SHBG value won’t move either.
I am hoping it works for you which is why I hope you will update your thread.
Wow that’s crazy. I guess there can be multiple “sources” causing it, one being genetics. Mine is still 70’ish but was over 150 in the beginning, before TRT. I just assumed it was from the lack of androgens caused by my now least favorite hair loss drug
So here is my diary of what happened so far after 1 x 100mg test E injection.
Day 1
After 1 hour, felt horny and calmer. After 3 hours felt mild heart palpitations, cured with Zeolite. Maybe some minor toxic substance in the oil. Slightly greasy skin.
Day 2
Super horny, best sex of my life. Mood totally stable. Feel relaxed with the world for the first time. Amazing feeling. Digestion best it’s ever been. Was getting some of my metal symptoms back, which were resolved by Zeolote. I think there is some relationship between SHBG and toxicity and the gut.
Day 3
Weaker but still noticeable increase in libdo/erections. Mood still fantastic, morning wood. Libido not as strong.
Other notes: Noticed some chelation type side effect, possible toxin release or depletion of essential metals. Have read that testosterone is a mercury antagoniser, and oestrogen is a mercury protector.
Possible theory: The body is trying to reduce the amount of available test to protect against mercury symptoms by increasing SHBG, and will always try and do that while there is mercury in the body. Only large amounts of sex hormones will reduce SHBG for a short time until more is made. Or until mercury is cleared. I was also looking back over my doctors notes from last year
“our testosterone is above normal limit, optimal level is more than 600 ng/mLToo high it doesn’t means good because your hematocrit and red blood cells. Normally high testosterone increase red blood cells production. Possible cause is androgen hormones receptor resistance from heavy metals or low free (active form) testosterone from zinc deficiency”
I have read TRT takes 2-3 week to become effective, but obviously my ‘curve’ is different (working almost instantly then becoming less noticeable in just a few days). I believe this is because the SHBG is binding to the large amounts of injected test, freeing up what’s already there.
It’s just acting a SHBG absorber, then after a few days the body is producing more SHBG to try and balance that out. For what ever reason my body is deciding it needs more SHBG. Could be genetic, could be toxin related. Maybe it has another unclear role. More study is needed.
Maybe as something to consider, the reason your capsule version isn’t working for you is it’s a ‘slow release’ and meant for people with low test, and not high SHBG.
Remember we are addressing two totally separate things here.
Everyone here and my TRT doc does seem to say things like ‘you need to overcome SHBG with large infrequent doses’. Not small regular, or even slow release.
So I’m happy that you are being a maverick, and trying out other solutions. Don’t give up if that’s what you believe. You may just stumble on a better solution, but just remember you still have an option to try if and when you want to consider injections.
I’m going to try another round of Alpha Lipoic Acid chelation, I didn’t document my attempt last time but from hazy memory, I do remember having similar feelings to TRT (mood and libido wise). Maybe that was unblocking my androgen receptors or something. I’ll make some notes about how that goes in a few days.
If you are interested about chelating your mercury check this group (many people talking about recovering test levels after 1-2 years of chelation): Andy Cutler Chelation: Safe Mercury and Heavy Metal Detox | Facebook
Just removing your fillings isn’t enough, and it’s a long long process to full detox. If you have had fillings and not detoxed, you will have mercury issues in some form. Everyone born today has 1000x more metals in them than 300 years ago, so it’s got to be an issue with the declining health spans people are suffering.
I have been trying it the natural way, with chlorella and cilantro (for 19 months) which has helped so much, but it wasn’t as powerful as the test round of ALA I did before. I only gave up because after 3 days it was way too strong, but maybe will try just reducing the dose and working up.
You can also do a 23andme genetic test for $99, which will possibly uncover some weakened pathways. Methylation seems to come up a lot.
I will also consider testing proviron if none of the above work and have been on Boron as well at 10mg a day for a few month (with nettle, and aventa sativa).
First off, it’s not unexpected that your Total T is high and your Free T low with high SHBG. As you know, the protein binds T and drives your free T down. However, it also protects T from liver metabolism and that is why you are testing high for Total T. SHBG bound T also cannot pass through the blood-brain barrier, so that is why you feel so bad. You are drowning in T in your peripheral circulation, but starving for T in the brain.
I’ve been dealing with this problem for a long time, though not to your extent. Mine usually measures in the 60-80 range and the highest it’s ever gone is 98. I’ve never found any of the OTC supplements to do anything other than to lower the level of my wallet. You hear talk in the forums of high T levels driving down SHBG, but that was not my experience in a T-cyp dose-response experiment I am working on. My two highest SHBG measurements ever were 95 and 97 at weekly T-cyp doses of 200 and 180 mg/week, respectively.
The ONLY treatment I’ve found to lower SHBG effectively are two anabolic hormones: stanozolol (Winstrol) and oxandrolone (Anavar). I did some experimenting a couple years ago and found that 5mg (2.5mg 2X per day) of stanozolol or 10mg (5mg 2X per day) would reliably lower my SHBG into the 20-30 range. At those low dosages, there is minimal liver toxicity.
I’ve since abandoned that approach for a T-loading approach. That is, drive up the Total T high enough that the SHBG protein becomes saturated and enough Free T spills over to make you feel normal and functional again. Hence, my recent dose-response experiment. I’m currently working on the last point of the curve (140mg/week). Based on current data, I’m predicting that my new normal dose will be around 125mg/week in an every 3 day (E3D) protocol.
Below is a graph of my experiment so far and my own personal goals of treatment. Keep in mind when interpreting the data is that at the lower doses (70-110 mg) I used an E3D protocol, at the middle doses (140-200 mg) i used and E2D protocol, and at the upper dose (245mg) I used a daily protocol. The rationale for a more frequent dosing schedule with the higher doses is to minimize peak levels and thus conversion to E2 and DHT. Also keep in mind that your SHBG is a little higher than mine, so you may need a slightly higher dose to get a similar response.
@youthful55guy I’ve been dealing with this problem for a long time, though not to your extent. Mine usually measures in the 60-80 range and the highest it’s ever gone is 98.
Thanks for the detailed response, some really useful info here. Will be testing out of these frequency cycles. Currently doing E3D 200mg with the next one tomorrow.
I’m curious about how you actually ‘feel’ with each of them? Do you feel normal again? If you had to pick one, which would you start with knowing what you do now?
As a side note, have you ever had any exposure to toxic metals (smoking, dental fillings, consuming a lot of large sized fish, living near industry etc). Do you have any other symptoms except those of low test?
I’m assuming you mean 200mg on an E3D injection cycle (~86mg/injection) and not 200mg E3D (which would be 467mg/week). Right?
I’m going to give you a short (sort of) answer to the ‘hoe I feel’ question. I plan on putting together a chart summary of how I felt at each dose based on noted and recollections. Just need to find some time to put it together and post it. Stay tumed…
Short answer.
At ~70 mg/week: Marginal improvement but still some low T cognitive issues and ED/libido issues.
At ~100 mg/week: Much improvement. Cognitive issues gone. ED issues pretty much gone but not completely.
At ~110 mg/week: No further cognitive improvement. ED issues gone (note that I take 5mg Cialis per day for prostate treatment, so that probably influences that variable).
At 140 mg/week: Current and last dose in the experiment. No further cognitive or ED improvement. I did notice a big improvement in the gym (more energy, faster progress) and more energy at home which I attribute to faster recovery from intense gym workouts 6 days per week.
At >140 mg/week: Same as 140 mg/week except even better and faster gains in the gym, but surprisingly, no further improvement in the ‘at home’ energy. On the downside, I started having some (very mild) anxiety. Nothing really bad, but noticable.
No to all the toxic exposure questions. At least to my knowledge.
I started testing test E injections (100mg twice per week) as a self prescribed experiment while my TRT doc looked over my results and came up with a plan.
The test E worked almost immediately on the first dose, did nothing on the second. I did keep it in the fridge and it was frozen when I pulled it out, maybe that messed it up somehow?
However he wants to start me on this: MAXSTIM protocol (include HCG,Tamoxifen,Vitamin D,5mg Cialis)
Anyone have any experience with Tamoxifen for high SHBG? My instinct is telling me to to Test only or test + hcg but maybe somebody here knows more?
Thanks )
