Just a quick question for people with experience in the field.
I have Med/High attached lats.
For back width development, I’ve heard(and read) over the years that the best thing to do is super-wide grip pull-ups/pulldowns.
In my experience(and lat type), this exercise has done nothing for me except build strength. I switched to medium grip pulls(a little wider than shoulder width) and they have done wonders for my strength/size in the entire pull category.
Is this because of my lat type? And also, rows seem to work better for me when I pull to mid abs, rather than low abs.
I think it really has a lot to do with not only the length of your muscle bellies, but the length of your arms and forearms as well. For instance, I get the best results with rows when I pull to my navel mainly because my upper arm ends where my hip bone begins. But I also get much better results from medium width pulls as well. Its all individual.
I’ve always believed that wide grip pulldowns actually minimize the ROM of the lats, and targets the inner back much more effectively. Closer, and reverse grips will actually create a better stretch in the lower attachments, which hopefully results in more muscle activation.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve always believed that wide grip pulldowns actually minimize the ROM of the lats, and targets the inner back much more effectively. Closer, and reverse grips will actually create a better stretch in the lower attachments, which hopefully results in more muscle activation.
S[/quote]
Yeah… For the actual lats, close or mid-grip AND exercises which provide an extreme stretch (droop rows for advanced guys, otherwise rack chins…
Both in this case can be done with a wide grip, I think the stretch off-sets the grip/ROM disadvantage) work best imo.
A mid-grip bent-over or machine low row will also hit the lats more than a wide-grip row (though imo any rows but droop and HS high rows are really not good lat-width exercises…
You get some width there by default, but if you have high lats, then that effect will be near zero. Better to concentrate on backthickness when doing regular rows imo).
Now, the teres minor and major push out the upper part of the lats and really help that upper “flared” look, those are (if I’m not mistaken) hit more by a wide grip on regular vertical exercises like pulldowns, pull-ups etc, along with the rear delts to some degree.
For a guy with high lat insertions, doing only wide-grip stuff and no real stretch-based movements will imo result in a very high lat-look and a not overly impressive back (width-wise)… That will also cause your torso to look a little narrow below the shoulders/around the chest area whenever you’re not flaring your lats.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve always believed that wide grip pulldowns actually minimize the ROM of the lats, and targets the inner back much more effectively. Closer, and reverse grips will actually create a better stretch in the lower attachments, which hopefully results in more muscle activation.
Something Cordova explained to me, is that your elbow positioning is key. If you can do pulldowns with your back straight upright (not leaning back), and keep your elbows in front of your torso (instead of pulling back trying to get that tight mid-scap ‘squeeze’), ideally with a neutral grip, your actual lats will get the brunt of the work as opposed to the midback areas.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Something Cordova explained to me, is that your elbow positioning is key. If you can do pulldowns with your back straight upright (not leaning back), and keep your elbows in front of your torso (instead of pulling back trying to get that tight mid-scap ‘squeeze’), ideally with a neutral grip, your actual lats will get the brunt of the work as opposed to the midback areas.
S[/quote]
I’ll have to do that this weekend when chest/back day comes back around.
It has always looked like I’ve had a small back up until a year ago(finally listened to my body’s response lol) mostly because of high lattitude.
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve always believed that wide grip pulldowns actually minimize the ROM of the lats, and targets the inner back much more effectively. Closer, and reverse grips will actually create a better stretch in the lower attachments, which hopefully results in more muscle activation.
S[/quote]
Yeah… For the actual lats, close or mid-grip AND exercises which provide an extreme stretch (droop rows for advanced guys, otherwise rack chins…
Both in this case can be done with a wide grip, I think the stretch off-sets the grip/ROM disadvantage) work best imo.
A mid-grip bent-over or machine low row will also hit the lats more than a wide-grip row (though imo any rows but droop and HS high rows are really not good lat-width exercises…
You get some width there by default, but if you have high lats, then that effect will be near zero. Better to concentrate on backthickness when doing regular rows imo).
Now, the teres minor and major push out the upper part of the lats and really help that upper “flared” look, those are (if I’m not mistaken) hit more by a wide grip on regular vertical exercises like pulldowns, pull-ups etc, along with the rear delts to some degree.
For a guy with high lat insertions, doing only wide-grip stuff and no real stretch-based movements will imo result in a very high lat-look and a not overly impressive back (width-wise)… That will also cause your torso to look a little narrow below the shoulders/around the chest area whenever you’re not flaring your lats.
[/quote]
I figured something as much, mechanics wise. All i needed was a lil re-assurance
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Something Cordova explained to me, is that your elbow positioning is key. If you can do pulldowns with your back straight upright (not leaning back), and keep your elbows in front of your torso (instead of pulling back trying to get that tight mid-scap ‘squeeze’), ideally with a neutral grip, your actual lats will get the brunt of the work as opposed to the midback areas.
S[/quote]
This seems to just naturally happen for me when I do my weighted v-grip dead hang pullups. And it does wreck my lats.
I’ve also recently become a huge fan of underhand lat pulldowns with about shoulder width grip. But I actually like to do those leaning back a bit and squeeze all the way at the bottom and then come up for a full stretch on each rep.
I actually have rather high lat insertions as well…not stupidly high, but definitely not low connecting ones.
To be honest I built the base of my lats off of:
Wide Rack Chins
Wide Pulldowns
Cable rows with a v-grip…but coming all the way forward on each rep (you will feel the lats stretching/activating)
I’ve stopped doing wide pulldowns though because I only really feel them in the very high part of my lats (basically right up by the rear delts. When I started doing underhand pulldowns and the v-grip pullups I got lat pumps that seemed to travel down lower and basically just felt like I was hitting a larger portion of the lats overall.
I still like the cable rows and the rack chins - just not doing them in my current routine, they will be back in eventually. Got bored of them.
Attached a relaxed back pic so you can see better how my lats are naturally higher inserting, but I’ve overcome it and would say back is my most impressive feature.
[quote]josh86 wrote:
I actually have rather high lat insertions as well…not stupidly high, but definitely not low connecting ones.
To be honest I built the base of my lats off of:
Wide Rack Chins
Wide Pulldowns
Cable rows with a v-grip…but coming all the way forward on each rep (you will feel the lats stretching/activating)
I’ve stopped doing wide pulldowns though because I only really feel them in the very high part of my lats (basically right up by the rear delts. When I started doing underhand pulldowns and the v-grip pullups I got lat pumps that seemed to travel down lower and basically just felt like I was hitting a larger portion of the lats overall.
I still like the cable rows and the rack chins - just not doing them in my current routine, they will be back in eventually. Got bored of them.
Attached a relaxed back pic so you can see better how my lats are naturally higher inserting, but I’ve overcome it and would say back is my most impressive feature.[/quote]
Yeah it looks like you know what you’re doing. Keep it up man.
I second the notion for closer grip underhand pulldowns for the whole lat. I can never seem to progress or feel the overhand wide grip pullups in my whole lats.
[quote]josh86 wrote:
I actually have rather high lat insertions as well…not stupidly high, but definitely not low connecting ones.
To be honest I built the base of my lats off of:
Wide Rack Chins
Wide Pulldowns
Cable rows with a v-grip…but coming all the way forward on each rep (you will feel the lats stretching/activating)
I’ve stopped doing wide pulldowns though because I only really feel them in the very high part of my lats (basically right up by the rear delts. When I started doing underhand pulldowns and the v-grip pullups I got lat pumps that seemed to travel down lower and basically just felt like I was hitting a larger portion of the lats overall.
I still like the cable rows and the rack chins - just not doing them in my current routine, they will be back in eventually. Got bored of them.
Attached a relaxed back pic so you can see better how my lats are naturally higher inserting, but I’ve overcome it and would say back is my most impressive feature.[/quote]
I second the seated cable rows with the v-grip, leaning forward. It’s like that justin harris vid where he’s sitting down and doing these at the cable station with a rope attachment. Lean forward, get a good stretch, and pull.
