I debated Bobo’s theories earlier this year and they don’t hold up to the research. He takes portions of theories and half truths to arrive at his conclusions it seems. When I am finished installing my floors, I will have a chance to expand upon this post.
[quote]chriscarani wrote:
I debated Bobo’s theories earlier this year [/quote]
WGAF about all of the studies he’s cited? Over YEARS I tried many things. Two things really worked for me: a PWO shake and a protein right before bedtime. In fact, when people used to ask me for advice, I’d say the following: Buy a can of protein. Have one scoop for breakfast, one after you workout, and one before bedtime. You will gain 10 pounds in 12 weeks by doing this.
Why so many people base their decisions on some guy’s theories (rather than your own experiences) makes no sense.
It’s sorta like the debate over whether it’s okay to have carbs and fat together in a meal. People have been eating that way for DECADES and have made great gains. Just because one guy says not to do it, you all shift your eating habits immediately. The rudder of your ship should be experience.
Base your decisions on your experiences, not on the ideas of others. This doubly applies when some guy a) shares his theories and then b) tells you to pay him money to unlock the potential of these theories.
Personally, I find I recover better with Surge than anything else. I use it for bulking, maintenance, and even while losing fat to a degree. When STRICTLY dieting and seeking to get really lean, I find protein and BCAAs post-workout to be best. That’s the only time.
Bobo doesn’t need to be automatically discounted. But try different methods. If Surge works best for use, as it does for me in most circumstances, use it. Regardless of what Bobo says.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Personally, I find I recover better with Surge than anything else. I use it for bulking, maintenance, and even while losing fat to a degree. When STRICTLY dieting and seeking to get really lean, I find protein and BCAAs post-workout to be best. That’s the only time.
Bobo doesn’t need to be automatically discounted. But try different methods. If Surge works best for use, as it does for me in most circumstances, use it. Regardless of what Bobo says.[/quote]
Yep. I love the stuff. I was waaaay skpetical at first. I wish people would try the stuff before commenting on it.
On the flip side: It’s annoying to hear people act as if there is no way outside of taking Surge to recover, and that everything else is dog food.
It’s like the TBT-split debate. Surge is a way - a good way even - of recovering after a workout. But it’s not the One True Way.
I just use chocolate milk. Also, when I was strictly anabolic diet, I never had any post-workout carbs and there were no ill effects from it.
Just looked at the abstracts that were posted by bobo on AM, and I have to say I’m not impressed. He highlights words from different papers, which if taken alone, could be construed as evidence that carbs postworkout are unnecessary. I don’t have the time or inclination to go thru each of the abstracts and comment, but suffice it to say, some carbs and amino acids pre/post workout are significanly better than amino acids alone. There are quite a few papers on this on pubmed.
Now if you have 100-200 grams of sugar after each workout expecting to be shredded, that’s not going to happen for most people. However, 50-75 grams might be more appropriate, depending on your size/phase of training.
Another statement that I can’t agree with (carb source doesn’t matter) is due to the fact that your gut won’t clear all carbs at the same rate. That makes a difference, having stuff sloshing in your stomach if you need to eat real food or do physical activity.
I think the bottom line is…don’t overdo the carbs w/your postworkout nutrition…and don’t sweat the minutiae cuz it won’t make a big difference in the grand scheme of things.
[quote]drew1021 wrote:
Just looked at the abstracts that were posted by bobo on AM, and I have to say I’m not impressed. He highlights words from different papers, which if taken alone, could be construed as evidence that carbs postworkout are unnecessary. I don’t have the time or inclination to go thru each of the abstracts and comment, but suffice it to say, some carbs and amino acids pre/post workout are significanly better than amino acids alone. There are quite a few papers on this on pubmed.
Now if you have 100-200 grams of sugar after each workout expecting to be shredded, that’s not going to happen for most people. However, 50-75 grams might be more appropriate, depending on your size/phase of training.
Another statement that I can’t agree with (carb source doesn’t matter) is due to the fact that your gut won’t clear all carbs at the same rate. That makes a difference, having stuff sloshing in your stomach if you need to eat real food or do physical activity.
I think the bottom line is…don’t overdo the carbs w/your postworkout nutrition…and don’t sweat the minutiae cuz it won’t make a big difference in the grand scheme of things. [/quote]
What are you talking about? He never once said that carbs PWO are unnecessary. His arguement is on the carb SOURCE itself. If you read one of the abstracts he posted, the study notes that the RATE of glycogen re-synthesis (in a PWO environment) is independant of the carb source itself. Think hard on that a second… meaning oatmeal, muffin or milk will lead to glycogen synthesis at the same rate as sugar (Surge).
Bobo even provides studies that it’s amino’s themselve’s (PWO) are the main mechanism for protein synthesis. Perhaps the amino’s in Surge are responsible for everyone’s magic rate of recovery rather than the 50grams of sugar.
[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
drew1021 wrote:
Just looked at the abstracts that were posted by bobo on AM, and I have to say I’m not impressed. He highlights words from different papers, which if taken alone, could be construed as evidence that carbs postworkout are unnecessary. I don’t have the time or inclination to go thru each of the abstracts and comment, but suffice it to say, some carbs and amino acids pre/post workout are significanly better than amino acids alone. There are quite a few papers on this on pubmed.
Now if you have 100-200 grams of sugar after each workout expecting to be shredded, that’s not going to happen for most people. However, 50-75 grams might be more appropriate, depending on your size/phase of training.
Another statement that I can’t agree with (carb source doesn’t matter) is due to the fact that your gut won’t clear all carbs at the same rate. That makes a difference, having stuff sloshing in your stomach if you need to eat real food or do physical activity.
I think the bottom line is…don’t overdo the carbs w/your postworkout nutrition…and don’t sweat the minutiae cuz it won’t make a big difference in the grand scheme of things.
What are you talking about? He never once said that carbs PWO are unnecessary. His arguement is on the carb SOURCE itself. If you read one of the abstracts he posted, the study notes that the RATE of glycogen re-synthesis (in a PWO environment) is independant of the carb source itself. Think hard on that a second… meaning oatmeal, muffin or milk will lead to glycogen synthesis at the same rate as sugar (Surge).
Bobo even provides studies that it’s amino’s themselve’s (PWO) are the main mechanism for protein synthesis. Perhaps the amino’s in Surge are responsible for everyone’s magic rate of recovery rather than the 50grams of sugar.[/quote]
This and Barr’s coments make me wonder if the perfect postworkout is protein and BCAA’s when cutting. Or at the most, very minimal carbs along with the 2. The more I read the more I am believing that BCAA’s are THE key. My next cycle I shall see.
Nice topic. I would bet the majority, myself included, have just come to believe that the postworkout ‘sugar’ is good and has no ill effects. Now—I wonder. Especially being bigger and now getting older. Just simply shaving 50-100g of carbs post workout could save me 2-400cals 4-6 times a week. Damn near .5-1lb a week from a place I never considered shaving before.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
chriscarani wrote:
I debated Bobo’s theories earlier this year
WGAF about all of the studies he’s cited? [/quote]
Well I do, and that is what I thought T-Nation was all about. Hard research studies and actual evidence, not what people “do”.
[quote]
Bobo even provides studies that it’s amino’s themselve’s (PWO) are the main mechanism for protein synthesis. Perhaps the amino’s in Surge are responsible for everyone’s magic rate of recovery rather than the 50grams of sugar.[/quote]
Well yes proteins are responsible for PROTEIN synthesis. That is not the debate.
Again I don’t have time and access to my books and research studies, but quickly here is a statement made by bobo, in the earlier discussion.
" I’m still trying to find studies on the checmical reaction that causes the combination of protein/carb to trigger a greater insulin release. This would be the nail in the coffin proving thats its just the carb itself no matter the GI combined with a protein that will cause a significant insulin spike. In theory, it should be the otherway around since yuor lowering the GI with the introduction of a protein in the mix."
His assumption is false here, as well as his entire theory, since the introduction of protein to a high GI carb solution actually raises insulin potential.
Anyway will get back to this.
[quote]chriscarani wrote:
since the introduction of protein to a high GI carb solution actually raises insulin potential.
[/quote]
Huh? Can you explain that? What do you mean by potential?
[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
chriscarani wrote:
since the introduction of protein to a high GI carb solution actually raises insulin potential.
Huh? Can you explain that? What do you mean by potential?[/quote]
Studies show when a protein is added to a carbohydrate source, a greater release of insulin is achieved, thereby raising the potential of insulin to perform it’s actions, i.e., greater nutrient uptake.
[quote]chriscarani wrote:
Well I do, and that is what I thought T-Nation was all about. Hard research studies and actual evidence, not what people “do”.[/quote]
Here’s how I learn: I look at what successful people have done. I then mimic those successful people, all the while modifying things as I grow from ignorant to well-informed.
If you want to become rich, would you rather talk to CEOs or Harvard Business School professors?
If you want to become big and strong, you need to look at what people have done to become big and strong.
Every big person I know swears by a post-workout shake or meal - one with lots of carbs.
Do you really think no one has tried protein without carbs post-workout? Of course people have tried that. It doesn’t work.
Science will always be 10 years behind what successful people are doing. Those of you waiting for a researcher to tell you the “answers” will always be behind everyone else.
After all, show me the science supporting the Westside methods of lifting. Please show me them. You can’t, because they don’t exist.
I guess an aspiring powerlifter should wait for a researcher to validate those methods before giving them a go instead of looking at what successful people actually do. LOL!
I’m not hating on science, but I do recognize its temporal limitations. I want results now. I don’t need to wait on an explanation to know what already works: Drink your carbs and protein during your workout, and post-workout.
[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
drew1021 wrote:
Just looked at the abstracts that were posted by bobo on AM, and I have to say I’m not impressed. He highlights words from different papers, which if taken alone, could be construed as evidence that carbs postworkout are unnecessary. I don’t have the time or inclination to go thru each of the abstracts and comment, but suffice it to say, some carbs and amino acids pre/post workout are significanly better than amino acids alone. There are quite a few papers on this on pubmed.
Now if you have 100-200 grams of sugar after each workout expecting to be shredded, that’s not going to happen for most people. However, 50-75 grams might be more appropriate, depending on your size/phase of training.
Another statement that I can’t agree with (carb source doesn’t matter) is due to the fact that your gut won’t clear all carbs at the same rate. That makes a difference, having stuff sloshing in your stomach if you need to eat real food or do physical activity.
I think the bottom line is…don’t overdo the carbs w/your postworkout nutrition…and don’t sweat the minutiae cuz it won’t make a big difference in the grand scheme of things.
What are you talking about? He never once said that carbs PWO are unnecessary. His arguement is on the carb SOURCE itself. If you read one of the abstracts he posted, the study notes that the RATE of glycogen re-synthesis (in a PWO environment) is independant of the carb source itself. Think hard on that a second… meaning oatmeal, muffin or milk will lead to glycogen synthesis at the same rate as sugar (Surge).
Bobo even provides studies that it’s amino’s themselve’s (PWO) are the main mechanism for protein synthesis. Perhaps the amino’s in Surge are responsible for everyone’s magic rate of recovery rather than the 50grams of sugar.[/quote]
My mistake, I misread the original post, and I didn’t completely go through all of bobo’s posts for lack of time. I apologize if I offended anyone.
However, I disagree about the carbohydrate source not mattering for glycogen replenishment, for practical reasons. While glycogen replenishment rate might be the same for the various carb sources, I can’t imagine that anyone would want to have 100 grams of carbs derived from oats in their stomach while trying to exercise.
My point is that while increasing glycogen stores may be the same, the gastric emptying rate is much different between carb sources. This makes a difference for athletes who train for more than 45 minutes at a time or for those who compete in multiple events within the span of an hour or two.
some of the amino acids are glucogenic, so yes it would supplement insulin response with that in mind.