High E2 Symptoms

Pharma TRT
1

Been lurking for a bit and need some advice.

35 male, 5’9" (5’10" on a good day), 193lb (2 weeks into a 12 week cut btw), 20-22% bf

For the last 3 months I’ve been running 150mg/wk (75mg twice/wk) test cyp, HCG 130iu, same day (Monday and Wednesday). Injecting ventrogluteal test cyp, subQ stomach for HCG.

Here’s my latest labs on August 12th 2019:

  • Testosterone, Serum 716 ng/dL (264-916)
  • Free Testosterone(Direct) 19.7 pg/mL (8.7-25.1)
  • DHEA-Sulfate 301.2 ug/dL (102.6-416.3)
  • TSH 2.690 uIU/mL (0.450-4.500)
  • LH <0.2mIU/mL (1.7-8.6)
  • Prostate Specific Ag, Serum 0.9 ng/mL (0.0-4.0)
  • IGF-1 233ng/mL (88-246)
  • Estradiol, Sensitive 34.3pg/mL (8.0-35.0)
  • Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum [Final] 35.3 nmol/L (16.5-55.9)

I was running the same protocol at my last provider, but decided to switch to Defy cause the clinic I was using wasn’t working out.

Symptoms I was experiencing were:

  • Dry lips (during the summer time which I thought was super weird, not happening anymore)
  • Backne
  • Extremely irritable
  • Extra emotional
  • High libido, super soft erections
  • No morning wood (was happening, but not anymore)
  • Body looks bloated
  • Lethargy
  • Depression
  • Water retention
  • Cold spells/clammy feet
  • Night sweats (around 6p til bed time)
  • Extreme excessive body odor (specifically armpits, feet were fine; I’m asian and I usually NEVER have BO that’s noticeable, so this was really odd)
  • Lack of motivation even tho I knew I had things to do (demotivated)
  • Brain fog (confusion; simple words would slip away like I was high or something.)

All these were staggered throughout the last 3 months.
I started noticing extreme fatigue, depression, irritability, and anxiety the last few weeks though on the same protocol.
All of which are affecting my job (I’m a massage therapist).

I spoke with a nurse at Defy about these issues and she thinks my issues are high E2 also. She also thinks more frequent shots but same weekly dose might be better due to my low (?) SHBG.

New protocol I discussed with the nurse will be lowered test cyp dose from 150mg to 120mg/wk (60mg twice a week, Tuesday/Friday), HCG is the same 260iu (2x 130iu; now on same day betwee test doses). The new Defy protocol is similar to the previous protocol I was running also (staggering HCG from test cyp).

New labs are tomorrow before I’m suppose to pin 60mg. But I’m still having lethargy, anxiety, and depression (high E2 symptoms) after the last 60mg pin from Tuesday. I noticed the next day around noon that I started having the sides.

Questions:

  1. Maybe the dose is too high? Maybe weekly dose is fine but shot frequency needs to go up due to SHBG? That’s what the nurse said.
  2. Can I do daily IM injections of test cyp at a lower dose? Or just more frequent? I’m willing to do daily if it gets rid of this shit. The needles are no problem.
  3. Could it be the HCG? We plan to have kids in the next few years and I’m kinda scared that my balls will die off so I can’t reproduce.

I’ll definitely know more once I get my bloods done tomorrow (trough). My plan is to skip my 60mg dose tomorrow cause I can’t work like this. ’
I did notice after my last 75mg dose from a few weeks ago, come Monday (should have been next dose), I was feeling WAY better, like I was definitely peaking.

Also as I stated above, I’m 2 weeks into a cut, calories are at maintenance which seems to be helping the bloating.
I’m haven’t been lifting the last 3 months due to our wedding in August and I had some major soft tissue issues going on that I’ve “fixed” myself.
I plan to start a new hypertrophy cycle next week (test week) which is a 5 day bodybuilding template (RP’s men’s physique template).
I ran this template when I was on 200mg/wk (100mg twice weekly) with 500iu HCG (250iu twice weekly) and got HUGE. Both injections were same day and then I started getting really bad lethargy and high E2 issues while still working out.

Hope this is enough to get some answers as I feel like absolute garbage.
My brainfog is strong rn, so it’s hard to keep track of everything.
Cheers folks.

2

I haven’t read everything but that e2 isn’t high. At all. Not even close.

Personally I’d probably drop the HCG for now and see if you level out and feel good on just test first. Not everyone does well on HCG.

My e2 is 73. No issues after I got through the initial month or so of water retention, etc.

Drop HCG and give it 6-7 weeks is my advice.

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What was the point of the 260iu of hcg? Is that even enough to do anything positive? What was the reasoning behind that dose?

Your testosterone isn’t high and your estrogen isn’t remotely high. Seems like your protocol is bare minimum everything. Maybe your TRT isn’t your problem. Have you checked thyroid?

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I would agree with @ncsugrad2002 , try dropping the HCG first. You want the fewest possible different kinds of drugs, they complicate things quickly. And your complaints all sound more like HCG issues than E2.

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5

I wouldn’t make huge changes to your protocol just yet. Your numbers look overall good. Your E is a bit high given nearer mid range everywhere else. A simple fix would be to add just a little bit of pregnenolone. Preg for the most part will convert to progesterone, which is an Estrogen antagonist. Its not a fix for super high E levels, but if you are just on the upper bound and feeling some symptoms. If you take out HCG now, your E and T could move considerably. Start with 10mg preg sublingually and see how you feel. It worked for me.

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@ncsugrad2002 I agree, I was more leaning towards the HCG. The issue is that I pinned test cyp (60mg) ONLY on Tuesday and all my sides came back. I was feeling fine Monday then Tuesday I was feeling absolutely great. These labs are from 3 months ago. I’ll update once I get the new ones from this morning.

@dextermorgan It’s the bare minimum dose. I mentioned to Defy that I wanted to try one thing at a time as I was getting similar sides on other protocols. My first inclination was to try one thing at a time but they said for fertility purposes, I should stay on it.

@hardartery Agree, but as I stated above, my symptoms came back full force Wednesday into Thursday and have subsided today (Friday morning) from the 60mg (.3ml) test cyp ONLY shot I took Tuesday. I’m holding off on my protocol until I get these bloods done and see how I feel over the weekend.

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I have seen some reply that they do test cyp IM or subQ daily. I would like to try that at the same dose to keep my levels steady. I think that might be the issue here though. In general, I’m very sensitive to drugs, specifically psychedelics, cannabis, caffeine, and pharmaceuticals to name a few.

I’ll update soon. Cheers.

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I gotta agree with most here man, your E2 isn’t high. My E2 was 45 and I don’t really have any symptoms of E2 problems. Your SHGB is pretty nice looking, wish mine was that level. Remember, lots of things can contribute to how you feel. Not just T. How are you sleeping? Stress level at home? You mentioned your on a cut, do you do lots of weight lifting and working out? If so, you could be over training. Something else is causing your issues man, I don’t think its your E2 at all.

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Your symptoms sound like peak/valley type shit to me. I would suggest that you keep everything the same (You mentioned being a newly wed and you’re worried about fertility, so I’m assuming that children are in the plans sometime soon?), except for splitting your weekly test dose into daily injections.

Smaller more frequent shots will allow for less aromatization, and also way more stable serum test levels.

If you do decide to move to daily injections, coordinate that with Defy. If you are doing IM injections, depending on your needle setup, the tiny amount of waste after an injection will be multiplied with more frequent injections. Defy will need to up your prescription to account for this waste so you don’t run out before it’s time to renew. You can get around this by using insulin needles and switching to subQ injections.

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@brandonc524 I outlined that in my post at the bottom. I’m only in week 2 of the cut and I’m not lifting. Yet. I plan to start a cycle of lifting, low volume, for the cut and focusing mostly on form to combat my scoliosis for full irradiation purposes. Stress has been fine. I’m just feeling super tired and knowing that I need to do work for my business, but can’t get myself off the couch. I’ve shown that I can work at home and still get shit done. It’s like I hit a wall. And these labs are from August. I just think, like what @bmbrady77 said, it’s just peak/valley issue, which makes me think I’m dialed in, just need to adjust the frequency.

@bmbrady77 That’s exactly what I was thinking. As I mentioned above, I think I’m dialed in, just going over my peak and as it wears off (this instance it was 2-3 days after injection last time it was 4-5 days). I may take the others advice and see how daily injections go, but I’m kinda scared to get off the HCG since we are planning to have kids in the next 2-3 years. And your assumptions were right about children.

Thanks for the awesome replies everyone.
Edit: tagged the wrong people.

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It could be the peak and valley effect. In fact, I recently went from 100mg per week to 60mg every 3.5 days because of the peak and valley. It wasn’t quite as dramatic as your feeling, but I do get what your saying.

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Yea, I’m also gravitating more towards daily injections for more consistency. Cause I was feeling great coming into Monday, then phenomenal Tuesday for my phone consult with Defy (75mg & 130iu HCG pinned together on Thursday, 4 days until I started feeling better). I was energetic, felt like I drank a fuck ton of coffee and super clear minded. I slept great the night before that too. Then I pinned 60mg and slept like shit, then the next few days were garbage. I woke up in the middle of the night, and would wake up at 2:30a Thursday and this morning. I feel much better today though. Like active and jumped outta bed this morning.

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Yeah it sounds like your levels are bouncing bro, daily injections are a huge commitment and I commend you for doing it, I couldn’t do daily injections, I would go nuts. Let us know how you make out man

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Yea. My plan is to let this week put me back into optimal range them do subq intentions. Thanks, I think it’ll be fine. I’m optimistic though. We’ll see lol

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Daily shot = 30 secs (20 for me)

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Prob even shorter.

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A lot of the T mills give everyone hCG, not saying this is your case. You can discontinue hCG and go back to it when you and your wife are ready.

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Yea I told them I am halting HCG, keeping my test dose at 150mg/wk split between daily injections at .11ml or 22mg/day.
I’ll be starting this Monday as I’m still getting “sides” as of yesterday.

I just woke up, so hopefully today is better than yesterday.

@dbossa recommended possibly increasing my test dose some I’ll be omitting HCG. Thoughts? I’ll definitely stay at 150mg for at least 3-6 weeks before getting blood on my own then seeing if I should move up.

How can you tell if you have room to move up? Do you just move up and see what happens usually? I ask because I’ve felt great on both 150 and 200mg before.

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You’re going to decide whether or not you need to increase or decrease based on lab values? Ever consider increasing/decreasing and seeing how you feel? I found the best dose to make me feel the best. To me, the labs are irrelevant right now. If a doc said I had to lower my dose because I now fall out of the normal range, I’d tell him to take a hike.

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I wasn’t really sure what to do. I’m pretty scared of the massive fluctuations I was having befor, is the thing.

I wasn’t going to adjust dose based on labs, only on symptoms. I think my questions made it sound like I was going off labs.

At this point, it’s more fright of getting the “out of optimal range” symptoms cause its been fucking my job up.

I’m with you tho, I’ve had docs say you have room to improve, which is why I left them.

Also a little update, I’m feeling amazing today. Brain fog has been lifted, lethargy, depression, and irritability is gone today. Looking forward to tomorrow and doing daily injections for the next few weeks to see what happens.

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Just based on everything I’ve seen, and I’ve seen quite a bit at this point, my guess is that you continue to feel better now that you have ditched the HCG. Give it several weeks until you feel stable. At that point you can always try to increase your dose a bit and assess how you feel after several weeks. My 2 cents.

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