Zap, with due respect man-
[quote] Israel was “legally” created by the UN. It is probably the most legal country on earth.
Do you ever tire of being wrong?[/quote]
While i agree with this, do you consider post-1948 appendixes to the green-line borders to be legal? They are recognised to be illegal. Resolutions have been written and ignored, then forgotten a few times.
What do you think?
[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Zap, with due respect man-
Israel was “legally” created by the UN. It is probably the most legal country on earth.
Do you ever tire of being wrong?
While i agree with this, do you consider post-1948 appendixes to the green-line borders to be legal? They are recognised to be illegal. Resolutions have been written and ignored, then forgotten a few times.
What do you think?[/quote]
I think Israel is in a no-win situation. Anytime they trade that land for peace they don’t get peace and that land is used to launch terrorist attacks on Israel.
What is their incentive to give any more back?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
No the media are will participants and are infact shocked and how anti-semetic the Hezbols are.[/quote]
So what if they are anti-semitic? That doesn’t prove that Lebanon is some sort of oppressive dictatorship. A parallel case has been made for the Jewish media in it’s stance towards Arabs.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Is it working? Let see they attacked us and we took out two arab countries and counting. Isreal is wiping it’s ass with lebenon and gaza. I’d say the “insurgency” is more of an inconveniece then a successful tactic. I’d say it’s failing miserably. If they want the US to leave, leave us alone and we will. Terrorism only works on Europeans.[/quote]
They didn’t “attack us”, per se. They counter-attacked, or retaliated, against decades of unanswered provocations.
We took out the governments of 2 Arabic countries. The countries themselves haven’t gone anywhere, and both of them are a bigger mess than they were before.
Israel may be wiping it’s ass with Lebanon, but Lebanon is not Hezbollah. With each new Lebanese death, Israel’s cause grows weaker and Hezbollah’s stronger.
How is the insurgency “failing” when top U.S. generals are openly speculating about the onset of civil war in Iraq?
How the hell are the so-called “terrorists” supposed to leave the US alone when WE’RE the ones who are occupying THEIR lands?
What’s the matter with you?
[quote]BH6 wrote:
I think you are forgetting that Iran is not an Arabic country, Iranians are Persians. There is animosity between Arabs and Persians. Iran is not going to be able to unify the region. Iran historically wants to control the region. Sunni Arabs are not going to tolerate or follow a Shiite Persian led leadership. Iran may try to indirectly control the region by sponsoring terrorist attacks against Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, but until they overthrow the governments and people of those countries, they aren’t going to be able to exert any influence. The Iranian attempts to exert influence on the Iraqi shiite population is being resisted because of the Iraqi memory of being controlled by Iran prior to the Ottoman Turks. [/quote]
I’m not forgetting that Iran isn’t Arabic and that the Muslim world is split between 2 major religious factions. These are obstactles in the path to unification, indeed, but they aren’t necessarily insurmountable. The U.S. and Israel are doing everything they can to bolster the process.
Plus, if Iran can get nukes, it will pose a significant threat/deterrent all by itself.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Plus, if Iran can get nukes, it will pose a significant threat/deterrent all by itself.[/quote]
You are absolutely right about a nuclear armed Iran. Not only will it give them greater status in the international world, it will allow them to threaten the Arab countries openly. Iran is going to have to test a nuclear weapon in order to gain that kind of recognition though.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Every time I hear someone defending these terrorist fucks I vomit a little. You paint these assholes as some kind of freedom fighters or something. Get a damn clue.
Fuck off.
Do you think it was a good thing that all those people died in those towers on that day? Should I try to rationalize the deaths of 343 of my brothers who were just trying to rescue the innocent civillians targeted by those assholes?
Or maybe you think they all deserved it?
[quote]
2. We took out the governments of 2 Arabic countries. The countries themselves haven’t gone anywhere, and both of them are a bigger mess than they were before.[/quote]
You really can’t be this ignorant, can you? Who do you think is responsible for holding back the progress of these countries? I’ll give you a clue, it’s not the U.S. or Great Britain.
[quote]
3. Israel may be wiping it’s ass with Lebanon, but Lebanon is not Hezbollah. With each new Lebanese death, Israel’s cause grows weaker and Hezbollah’s stronger.[/quote]
That’s precisely what they want smartguy. They truly do “love the Lebanese dead”. I’ll give you another clue. Isreal does not desire to target Lebanon. This is an unfortunate consequence of hezbollah strategy and tactics. Get it?
They hide munitions in hospitals, they fight from UN outposts, they use dead lebonese children as props in their propaganda (lebanese children that they were hiding behind. You really should look into what happened there. It’s pretty sick.) Hell, the more dead lebanese, the happier they are.
Your open admiration of Hezbollah and all the other terrorist fucks is a little sickening.
[quote]
4. How is the insurgency “failing” when top U.S. generals are openly speculating about the onset of civil war in Iraq?[/quote]
I think you’re right on this one unfortunately. We are winning the battles, but losing the propaganda war. People can’t see that Iraq and Afganistan would be light years farther along if it wasn’t for the terrorists(or do you prefer “insurgents”).
These terrorists are holding back the governmental process, sabotoging the improvement of the infastructure with regards to utilities and such, and killing innocent civillians (Arab and western, they don’t care) in the process.
Yea, were the bad guys.
[quote]
5. How the hell are the so-called “terrorists” supposed to leave the US alone when WE’RE the ones who are occupying THEIR lands?[/quote]
Yea, the US, Great Britan, and a host of other countries pump billions into the Iraq infastructure, are actively training Iraqi security forces, and are attempting to set up a democratically elected government. All with the the intent of leaving a solid, free, democratic country.
We’re such terrible occupiers. Shame on us.
I’m sure that my high school football coach would slap you in the back of the head and hollar “you’re thinking too much son!”
But since you’re such a thinker, let me ask you this. Who do you think is really to blame for the deaths of the Lebanese?
hint it’s not Isreal.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Every time I hear someone defending these terrorist fucks I vomit a little. You paint these assholes as some kind of freedom fighters or something. Get a damn clue.
Fuck off.
Do you think it was a good thing that all those people died in those towers on that day? Should I try to rationalize the deaths of 343 of my brothers who were just trying to rescue the innocent civillians targeted by those assholes?
Or maybe you think they all deserved it?[/quote]
Like all pro-war, self-proclaimed “patriots”, you attempt to paint every issue with black & white, “us or them”, moralistic overtones. This is your biggest problem. I told you before that I do not subscribe to this type of thinking. When you inject morality and emotion into the realm of politics you inevitably end up with fascism. I study politics as a science. The study of politics is the study of power. Power is amoral.
I study events and their causes. I examine what is, not what “ought” to be. I’m a scientist, not a priest.
I don’t “defend” one side or another. I don’t think that anyone “deserved” anything any more than they “didn’t deserve” it. Such terms are meaningless to me.
What I’m telling you, from a scientific, “cause and effect” basis, is that 9/11 was caused by U.S. policy in the Middle East. Not because “terrorists are evil” or “they hate our freedoms”. These explanations are barely suitable for 5 year olds, nevermind grown adults.
Given what I believe about the causes of 9/11, I do not think the best way of dealing with the threat of terrorism is escalating the very policies which lead to it in the first place.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
2. We took out the governments of 2 Arabic countries. The countries themselves haven’t gone anywhere, and both of them are a bigger mess than they were before.
You really can’t be this ignorant, can you? Who do you think is responsible for holding back the progress of these countries? I’ll give you a clue, it’s not the U.S. or Great Britain.[/quote]
I’m not sure how this relates to what I wrote. The U.S. and Britain invaded those 2 countries. As a result of those invasions, they are now a bigger mess than they were before. Who caused the mess? The U.S. and Britain did.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
3. Israel may be wiping it’s ass with Lebanon, but Lebanon is not Hezbollah. With each new Lebanese death, Israel’s cause grows weaker and Hezbollah’s stronger.
That’s precisely what they want smartguy. They truly do “love the Lebanese dead”. I’ll give you another clue. Isreal does not desire to target Lebanon. This is an unfortunate consequence of hezbollah strategy and tactics. Get it?
They hide munitions in hospitals, they fight from UN outposts, they use dead lebonese children as props in their propaganda (lebanese children that they were hiding behind. You really should look into what happened there. It’s pretty sick.) Hell, the more dead lebanese, the happier they are.[/quote]
The fact that Lebanese causualties work to Hezbollah’s advantage from a PR perspective does not prove your accusations about them.
You don’t know the intentions of Israel’s military high command any more than you know the intentions of Hezbollah. Everything you write is an assumption based on your own ingrained biases as well as information from certain sources. With different sources and a different set of perceptual biases, one can arrive at an entirely different conclusion.
It’s very easy to reverse your allegation and claim that Israel trumpets the deaths of its own civilians in order to justify collective punishment of Lebanon. After all, the kill ratio is VASTLY in favor of the Jewish state.
I have read sources which speculate that the Israeli state doesn’t care for civilian casualties among Arabs and is pursuing an active agenda of territorial expansion. Who is to say that these sources are any less credible than the ones you use to arrive at your conclusions?
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
5. How the hell are the so-called “terrorists” supposed to leave the US alone when WE’RE the ones who are occupying THEIR lands?
Yea, the US, Great Britan, and a host of other countries pump billions into the Iraq infastructure, are actively training Iraqi security forces, and are attempting to set up a democratically elected government. All with the the intent of leaving a solid, free, democratic country.
We’re such terrible occupiers. Shame on us.[/quote]
More assumptions. Everything you wrote is based on the fairy tale of “American benevolence” which is spoonfed to you by the government. Wars and occupations are NEVER benevolent. There are always, underlying geo-political and/or profit motives for them.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
But since you’re such a thinker, let me ask you this. Who do you think is really to blame for the deaths of the Lebanese?
hint it’s not Isreal.[/quote]
Israel’s actions are the direct cause of their deaths. They are being killed by Israeli bombs. Beyond that, everything is speculation.
You’re right man. That means of course lots of ‘patriots’ will just try to suppress whatever rational argument you present that could lead to the avoidance of future suffering. Because they will be on a witchhunt. Am i right, US Nationalists? You just want to get the bastard that did it and beat the shit out of him.
That’s how i thought when i was a small child, as well. I’m more capable at shitkicking now, but also understand more and more about the consequences of ignorant application of power.
I bet nominal prospect sounds all arrogant, right, saying ‘he’s a scientist’? Politics is a science. If you understand the subtle colonies we have installed, that don’t benefit me in any way (i work in shops but don’t see even a small fraction of the profit) you will see that these are very shady wars, like chess. Pieces are being taken all the time, and they bleed.
I would never say anything about 9/11 personally. I don’t revel in it, and Americans are far too raw to see anything but rage. I’m sorry for you flamer, you’re a jersey firefighter right? I’m so with you in hoping that shit had never happened.
Internationally, we meddle and change things that have been tradition for millenia, in years. We expect a religious-based culture to just lap up democracy. I’ll give you a hint- democracy is not the biggest concern. It’s life.
What do we look like, supporting the shelling of towns and civilians (beyond denial, far too many are dying) in the name of ‘freedom’. What a freedom!
They can’t even choose life or death, as our western countries inject munitions into Israel so it can exert it’s will over the entire middle east, as that’s the only alternative to diplomacy, which would mean concessions that would deflate Israel’s artificially strong economic stranglehold over Palestine.
Do 6 million arabs have to die before we say ‘yes, that is another war crime’?
There is surely propaganda from each side. Some people can only see one. I see both sides are at fault. One side is sponsored by the US and the west however (currently)
Good post Nominal.
as sad as it is (and being european this view is extremly against our mainstream thinking…)I think that the war was inevetable. As you can see hisbollah is prepared for this war, they have weapons evidently from Iran and build tunnels for a guerilla war. Not only Israel but the hisbollah as well wanted this war.
the exchange of soldiers would only have postponed the inevitable. And Israel could not affort to wait until Iran has the bomb.
Of course you can argue of all the crimes both sides in the region are guilty of and you are right about that of course. But I really understand Isreal, they have to act or they will be gone. And no, I do not support their poltics per se.
I think Nominal and Wreckless are some kind of team. Perhaps we should give them a name?
Hezbollah attacked our embassy in the 80’s murdering more than 200 Marines that were over there trying to keep the peace with unloaded weapons during Lebanon’s civil war.
Your ignorance is astounding.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Hezbollah attacked our embassy in the 80’s murdering more than 200 Marines that were over there trying to keep the peace with unloaded weapons during Lebanon’s civil war.
Your ignorance is astounding.[/quote]
First, prove that contention.
[quote]It is uncertain as to who is responsible for the bombing although several radical Shiite militant groups claimed responsibility for the attacks, and one, the Free Islamic Revolutionary Movement, identified the two suicide bombers as Abu Mazen and Abu Sijaan.[3] Despite the fact that they were not officially an organization until February 1985, many (notably the U.S. government) believe that the Hezbollah, a Lebanese based militant group backed by Iran and Syria, was responsible for this particular bombing as well as the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in April. Hezbollah, Iran and Syria have denied any involvement.
Many in the U.S. government do not claim Hezbollah is responsible for the marine barracks attack. For example in 2001 Caspar Weinberger, Secretary of Defence under Reagan at the time of the attacks stated: “But we still do not have the actual knowledge of who did the bombing of the Marine barracks at the Beirut Airport, and we certainly didn’t then”[/quote]
Second, explain how the Marine barracks bombing refutes or even addresses what I wrote. The key issue here, as far as I’m concerned, is intervention by the U.S. into the ME. That’s what happened in 1982, and it happened before that, too. So what I wrote about the retaliatory nature of 9/11 is perfectly valid.
[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
pat36 wrote:
No the media are will participants and are infact shocked and how anti-semetic the Hezbols are.
So what if they are anti-semitic? That doesn’t prove that Lebanon is some sort of oppressive dictatorship. A parallel case has been made for the Jewish media in it’s stance towards Arabs.[/quote]
Mearly pointing out that the media is is buying, hook line and sinker what the Hezbols are feeding them. Not talking about the Lebenees/Hezbol-idiots.
[quote]
pat36 wrote:
Is it working? Let see they attacked us and we took out two arab countries and counting. Isreal is wiping it’s ass with lebenon and gaza. I’d say the “insurgency” is more of an inconveniece then a successful tactic. I’d say it’s failing miserably. If they want the US to leave, leave us alone and we will. Terrorism only works on Europeans.
It’s pretty clear that you are a muslim militant or a lover of them yourself. That being the case, I cannot even legitimize the above statement with a response, because it is not worthy of one.
[quote]
2. We took out the governments of 2 Arabic countries. The countries themselves haven’t gone anywhere, and both of them are a bigger mess than they were before.[/quote]
They still lost land, people (assholes actually), two countries and have thier lands futher occupied by Zionists, so what have they accoplished? They killed many civilians, even muslims who happened to be in the way, and some soldiers, but they are losing and big time. The more they attcked the west, the deeper rooted the west becomes in thier territory. Just take two maps. One prior to 9/11 and onw after. One one before, color all the areas of Western presence and do the same with the one after. I think it will clarify itself.
The fact the the governments aren’t quite right is really not a determinant of military victory, but an attempt of the big hearted west not to leave these areas smoking creaters and give the people some kind of future. The enemy still lost. If the islamo-nazis take over the governemts we will wipe them out again.
[quote]
3. Israel may be wiping it’s ass with Lebanon, but Lebanon is not Hezbollah. With each new Lebanese death, Israel’s cause grows weaker and Hezbollah’s stronger.[/quote]
They are intertwined and they are together. The Lebanese government tolerated and even encouraged hezollah’s presence, therefore they are culpable.
[quote]
4. How is the insurgency “failing” when top U.S. generals are openly speculating about the onset of civil war in Iraq?.[/quote]
Again, the more they attack the Zionist forces, the more deeply rooted they become in the region. We can’t help it if the Sunnis and the Shits hate each other. They are just practicing what they preach, hate and war at any cost.
[quote]
5. How the hell are the so-called “terrorists” supposed to leave the US alone when WE’RE the ones who are occupying THEIR lands?
What’s the matter with you?[/quote]
They lost. If they want to get thier 72 male virgins by blowing themselves up and putting themselves in harm’s way, let them.
I am not a muslim jew hating pig, that’s what wrong with me. I am proud of this fault.
Guys, it is a sad fact that sometimes there is no way out.
To give a trivial example, you find yoruself in unknown quarters late at night, and run into some undesirables.
If they happen to be in a bad mood, or power hungry, or whatever, and feel like killing someone that night, you could just be it.
There is nothing you can say, nothing you can do, except fight your way out. The situation is not something you can control.
Sure, maybe you shouldn’t have gone there, but there you are. Sure, maybe the world shouldn’t have taken the path it did, but during the cold war the superpowers toyed with each other by playing games with the Middle East.
The world is where it is. It’s late at night and there are bad guys out there intent on evil. They are not leaving anyone a lot of choices.
You can point to lots of historic events and claim this caused that, but the fact of the matter is that we are in this situation. Bitching about whether or not we should or should not have taken the road with did is moot.
The agenda is not in the hands of the west. Western civilizations cannot simply allow their innocent civilians to be attacked by terrorists. Governments have a duty to protect those citizens and they must carry that out.
Because the terrorists are driving the agenda, unwilling to work towards a peaceful solution, we can’t have one. Everyone knows that peace is available tomorrow if the terrorists are willing to put down their arms.
It would then, in an ongoing state of peace, be trivial to work out an equitable way to deal with continuing disputes, short of reversing history and eliminating Israel.
The Islamic media, such as Al-Jazeera, have been the outlet of propaganda the likes of which is unheard of in western countries. Here, we have opposing media and the freedom to voice moderate or opposing opinions without risk.
I really think a lot of you guys simply do not understand what happens in a situation where you cannot speak for risk to you or your family. It’s easy to be a tough guy, when you are single young guy, perhaps a student, but when you have a wife and children, you can’t rock the boat if they are threatened.
Unless there is a legal system in place to deal with such situations, you have to keep your mouth shut and just nod your head and try to stay out of trouble. You can’t work and be home to protect everyone at the same time. The way things are now it wouldn’t even matter if you were home, you and your whole family would just be wiped out, whether or not you took a few with you.
There is a level of naivety around here that is just striking. The difference between open societies and controlled societies. The difference between being safe to speak out and having to acquiesce just to survive. The difference between a civilized society and the freedoms it grants us and one run by thugs.
Once the thugs have control, it is exceedingly difficult to root them out, because they are everywhere. Civilized rules break down in those conditions. you need to think outside the box to deal with such a situation.
Somebody buy me a Middle Eastern media outlet and I’d be happy to get to work on the perpetual propaganda and hatred currently being fueled. Honestly, I’d happily spend the rest of my days simply giving the region things to think about and talk about that didn’t involve hatred of the west.
The people of the region need some new things to believe in… and no, I’m not suggesting trying to supplant their religion, that would be hopeless.