Help Redesigning This Program

Training
21

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]flipya4it wrote:
just one more quick point-I remember years ago I wanted to build up my forearms and grip and also my neck muscles.

I bought a neck harness,made a wrist roller and bought 3 levels of captains of crush grippers and went to work-the results were not significant.

around this time I discovered the deadlift.i liked the lift and got strong at it.i have,since then,never needed the harness or grippers or roller.

this is why i’m a fan of the bigger lifts,you can spin your wheels for years with smaller exercises and regret the time lost when you finally discover what you’ve been missing.[/quote]

Yep, i understand and agree. I have yet to see a guy who can deadlift 500 with a week grip. Same goes for snatching heavy without straps (too advanced for the op likely) or snatch grip deadlft. Granted no need to dl 500 if your main goal is to be a fighter or martial artist lol. Pretty much just agree, i was clarifying some things.[/quote]

The thing is that grip strength (like pretty much all types of strength) is movement and position specific. Dead lifting will get you strong at “support gripping” which of course can be useful in fighting, but it won’t do diddly for “pinch gripping” and isn’t great at developing “crushing gripping” either. COC and other high tension grippers do a great job of building crushing grip, but aren’t great for support or punching grip. And finally stuff like rafter chins or “Hub” training are great for pinch grip, but not great for support or crushing grip.

So it really depends on what measuring stick you are using. I’ve seen guys who could deadlift way more than 500 lbs be unable to close even the COC #2 (which I can do fairly easily and I’m nowhere near their level of dead lifting). Heck of all of the WSM guys at the Arnold expo a few years back the only guy that could do it was Brian Shaw and it wasn’t even a piece of cake for him.

If you want to have great support grip, then train for it. If you want tons of crushing grip, then train for that. If you want great pinch grip, then train for pinch grip. Personally, I’d say that for a martial artist they should train some of each, but I agree that you can kill two birds with one stone by doing stuff like Deadlifts, farmer’s carries, or weighted chins. I’d suggest checking out John Brookfield’s material for lots of great all around grip training supplemental stuff if you’re really interested.[/quote]

No no, I fully agree Sento. I am writing from the perspective of having seen this guy repeatedly in the beginner’s section asking tons of different irrelevant questions for a guy whose bench is around 95 lbs. At this point he is essentially untrained and there’s simply going to be tons of carryover regardless–and besides which the primary reason for stating things this way is the fact that this guy is a classic case of both majoring in the minors and analysis paralysis (Colucci’s told him several times). I am trying to bring it down to bare bones for the completely untrained.

You’ll notice I left the towel chins and farmer’s walks untouched by criticism ;)…because I agree with you. Also on a different note I find that the snatch grip deadlift and the snatch are both good for grip in a way that is different from the regular deadlift (stresses fingers more because there’s not as much meat to grip with if you’re out at the collars). Still in complete agreement with you however.

22

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]flipya4it wrote:
just one more quick point-I remember years ago I wanted to build up my forearms and grip and also my neck muscles.

I bought a neck harness,made a wrist roller and bought 3 levels of captains of crush grippers and went to work-the results were not significant.

around this time I discovered the deadlift.i liked the lift and got strong at it.i have,since then,never needed the harness or grippers or roller.

this is why i’m a fan of the bigger lifts,you can spin your wheels for years with smaller exercises and regret the time lost when you finally discover what you’ve been missing.[/quote]

Yep, i understand and agree. I have yet to see a guy who can deadlift 500 with a week grip. Same goes for snatching heavy without straps (too advanced for the op likely) or snatch grip deadlft. Granted no need to dl 500 if your main goal is to be a fighter or martial artist lol. Pretty much just agree, i was clarifying some things.[/quote]

The thing is that grip strength (like pretty much all types of strength) is movement and position specific. Dead lifting will get you strong at “support gripping” which of course can be useful in fighting, but it won’t do diddly for “pinch gripping” and isn’t great at developing “crushing gripping” either. COC and other high tension grippers do a great job of building crushing grip, but aren’t great for support or punching grip. And finally stuff like rafter chins or “Hub” training are great for pinch grip, but not great for support or crushing grip.

So it really depends on what measuring stick you are using. I’ve seen guys who could deadlift way more than 500 lbs be unable to close even the COC #2 (which I can do fairly easily and I’m nowhere near their level of dead lifting). Heck of all of the WSM guys at the Arnold expo a few years back the only guy that could do it was Brian Shaw and it wasn’t even a piece of cake for him.

If you want to have great support grip, then train for it. If you want tons of crushing grip, then train for that. If you want great pinch grip, then train for pinch grip. Personally, I’d say that for a martial artist they should train some of each, but I agree that you can kill two birds with one stone by doing stuff like Deadlifts, farmer’s carries, or weighted chins. I’d suggest checking out John Brookfield’s material for lots of great all around grip training supplemental stuff if you’re really interested.[/quote]

No no, I fully agree Sento. I am writing from the perspective of having seen this guy repeatedly in the beginner’s section asking tons of different irrelevant questions for a guy whose bench is around 95 lbs. At this point he is essentially untrained and there’s simply going to be tons of carryover regardless–and besides which the primary reason for stating things this way is the fact that this guy is a classic case of both majoring in the minors and analysis paralysis (Colucci’s told him several times). I am trying to bring it down to bare bones for the completely untrained.

You’ll notice I left the towel chins and farmer’s walks untouched by criticism ;)…because I agree with you. Also on a different note I find that the snatch grip deadlift and the snatch are both good for grip in a way that is different from the regular deadlift (stresses fingers more because there’s not as much meat to grip with if you’re out at the collars). Still in complete agreement with you however.
[/quote]

Yeah, I totally agree with your overall point, was just stating the above in the case that someone else was reading the thread and thought “oh, I guess all I have to do is deadlift if I want a gorilla grip.”

Anyone who can only bench 95 lbs (and isn’t injured or still in high school) should be focusing on the basics.

23

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Not meaning to come off like a cunt…

but tbh I doubt you are getting dominated by newcomers just because of size and strength. I think it may be the case that your skills are not as refined or practiced as you like to think they are. [/quote]

nah youre spot on of course davo-skills pays the bills etc.lol.

strength is just a link in the chain that if weak can expose you-i’m assuming that is what the OP is possibly experiencing and/or predicting may be an issue for him down the track.

24

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]flipya4it wrote:
just one more quick point-I remember years ago I wanted to build up my forearms and grip and also my neck muscles.

I bought a neck harness,made a wrist roller and bought 3 levels of captains of crush grippers and went to work-the results were not significant.

around this time I discovered the deadlift.i liked the lift and got strong at it.i have,since then,never needed the harness or grippers or roller.

good discussion- agree with what sento and Aragorn have written above.

re the deadlift not being the be all and end all,of course this is correct,but I would suggest that if the OP wanted to test the merit of the advice offered above,this would be the place to start.

youtube the movement,practice the movement,video it if you can,aim to add 20 kilograms to whatever weight you start with.

especially for something like throws,Bull-but I would suggest you would see really fast and dramatic improvement across the board.

might be worth a 1 month experiment?

don’t forget that all those other exercises will still be there if you wish later on.

this is why i’m a fan of the bigger lifts,you can spin your wheels for years with smaller exercises and regret the time lost when you finally discover what you’ve been missing.[/quote]

Yep, i understand and agree. I have yet to see a guy who can deadlift 500 with a week grip. Same goes for snatching heavy without straps (too advanced for the op likely) or snatch grip deadlft. Granted no need to dl 500 if your main goal is to be a fighter or martial artist lol. Pretty much just agree, i was clarifying some things.[/quote]

The thing is that grip strength (like pretty much all types of strength) is movement and position specific. Dead lifting will get you strong at “support gripping” which of course can be useful in fighting, but it won’t do diddly for “pinch gripping” and isn’t great at developing “crushing gripping” either. COC and other high tension grippers do a great job of building crushing grip, but aren’t great for support or punching grip. And finally stuff like rafter chins or “Hub” training are great for pinch grip, but not great for support or crushing grip.

So it really depends on what measuring stick you are using. I’ve seen guys who could deadlift way more than 500 lbs be unable to close even the COC #2 (which I can do fairly easily and I’m nowhere near their level of dead lifting). Heck of all of the WSM guys at the Arnold expo a few years back the only guy that could do it was Brian Shaw and it wasn’t even a piece of cake for him.

If you want to have great support grip, then train for it. If you want tons of crushing grip, then train for that. If you want great pinch grip, then train for pinch grip. Personally, I’d say that for a martial artist they should train some of each, but I agree that you can kill two birds with one stone by doing stuff like Deadlifts, farmer’s carries, or weighted chins. I’d suggest checking out John Brookfield’s material for lots of great all around grip training supplemental stuff if you’re really interested.[/quote]

No no, I fully agree Sento. I am writing from the perspective of having seen this guy repeatedly in the beginner’s section asking tons of different irrelevant questions for a guy whose bench is around 95 lbs. At this point he is essentially untrained and there’s simply going to be tons of carryover regardless–and besides which the primary reason for stating things this way is the fact that this guy is a classic case of both majoring in the minors and analysis paralysis (Colucci’s told him several times). I am trying to bring it down to bare bones for the completely untrained.

You’ll notice I left the towel chins and farmer’s walks untouched by criticism ;)…because I agree with you. Also on a different note I find that the snatch grip deadlift and the snatch are both good for grip in a way that is different from the regular deadlift (stresses fingers more because there’s not as much meat to grip with if you’re out at the collars). Still in complete agreement with you however.
[/quote]

Yeah, I totally agree with your overall point, was just stating the above in the case that someone else was reading the thread and thought “oh, I guess all I have to do is deadlift if I want a gorilla grip.”

Anyone who can only bench 95 lbs (and isn’t injured or still in high school) should be focusing on the basics.[/quote]

25

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
More weight is a factor yes, but an additional big factor is the spinal loading inherent in back squats and deadlifts (and to a lesser degree in front squat). Spinal loading has an additional fatiguing effect. Also you are using more of your total muscle mass to move the bar, which creates an additional fatigue. The tension you need for a back squat or deadlift is infinitely higher than the tension you need for a dumbbell lunge, even a heavy lunge (assuming you’re actually performing them as they should be). Total body tension isn’t even close to comparable. [/quote]

Oh…I think I know what you mean by being able to utilize more of your total muscle mass to move the bar compared to when you move dumbbells. You’re saying that with a barbell (assuming that it is moderately to heavily loaded) your entire body ends up recruiting the prime movers or the bigger muscles more than the stabilizers. However, many stabilizers will still end up getting recruited during a given barbell exercise, albeit not as much as activation during the dumbbell and/or single leg variations.

For example, the standard barbell squat, will activated the same total number of prime movers and stabilizers as the dumbbell split squat (with moderate to heavy weight) and the barbell split squat (with moderate to heavy weight) variations. However, the difference between standard barbell back squat and either one of the split squat variations is that the standard barbell squats will end up eliciting more prime mover activation than with either one of the split squat variations, while in contrast either one of the split squat variations will end up eliciting more stabilizer activity.

Even if you did a bilateral version of dumbbell squats (with moderate to heavy weights) which would involve more stabilizer activity compared to the standard barbell version, you would still be recruiting the prime movers less compared to the standard barbell back squat, because with the dumbbell version you still have to work harder to stabilize two dumbbells independently compared to stabilizing one loaded barbell.

So while the stabilizers aren’t activated as much during a bilateral barbell variation as a dumbbell and/or single leg variation, a bilateral barbell variation of a given exercise still will end up ultimately recruiting more amount of muscle fibers overall compared to a dumbbell and/or single leg variation. This would be further substantiated by the idea that you are able to easily use more total weight on a barbell than with dumbbells. Sounds right?

I know that what I am doing is pretty much insane, but it’s just that I can’t help but think as to how great it would be if I knew everything I needed to know about strength and conditioning, as well as sport training. Because if I did then I would end up being set for the rest of my life on knowing exactly what to do with anything and everything with regard to all areas of training.

[quote] You are 24 years old and 150 lbs. You should have a goal to squat 225 clean for reps. I have a 65 year old man that does it for 5 reps. and a 50 year old 150 lb ER doc that can do it for 8 reps… both below parallel. If they can do it you’d better be able to at least squat it for a rep or two as well. You can talk about forearm training and shit after you get your butt into action.

Best of luck.

[/quote]

Very well, then I will start doing either the 5/3/1 program or the Westside for Skinny Bastards program or Stronglifts 5x5 program for 6 months to a year or until it seems like I am well past the novice stage of weight training. Then I will probably move on to either Ross’s Infinite Intensity training or something else like Chad Waterbury’s specific weight training program for MMA athletes. Sound like a much more reasonable plan?

26

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

Oh…I think I know what you mean by being able to utilize more of your total muscle mass to move the bar

[Several paragraphs about stabilisers]

Sounds right? [/quote]

NO. Also, it doesn’T matter as long as you can’t even squat 200lbs.

People have told you everything you need to know NOW. You will learn more down the road anyway. But stop your trip down armchair expert road and get good at the basics before you do anything else. That is, if you ever want to see results.

Go for it.

27

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

I know that what I am doing is pretty much insane, but it’s just that I can’t help but think as to how great it would be if I knew everything I needed to know about strength and conditioning, as well as sport training. Because if I did then I would end up being set for the rest of my life on knowing exactly what to do with anything and everything with regard to all areas of training. [/quote]

That’s good. Start logging your 10,000 hours now (no, that’s not a typo). But get your ass in the gym in the mean time. Those 10,000 hours have an immensely strong “practicum” component that involves getting much stronger and much more of an athlete.

Yes. Much better. You know more than enough to get started. You don’t get a Ph.D sitting on the sidelines, you get into the lab. Likewise you don’t actually understand what’s going on until you’re in the gym. The limits you think are physical limits in terms of tolerance aren’t even halfway there.

Westside for Skinny Bastards is probably the best of the bunch for combination of basics and athleticism. It was geared for high school and beginning athletes needing to get stronger and bigger but also be athletic. Do the 2nd version for 3 months or so, exactly AS WRITTEN…then start the 3rd version.

Your novice stage lasts however long it lasts, until you get some appreciable progress in strength and conditioning. I have personally seen people who have been “training” regularly and not on/off for 5-10 years that are still novices with newbie gains to get. I have also seen people who go from novice to intermediate in a year and a half to 2. It depends on how hard you apply yourself to BOTH work and thought.

Your prehab external rotations and other stuff is useful to keep doing, especially with lots of punching (internal rotation and pronation) as part of your sport discipline.

No, your summary behind the barbell vs. dumbbell lifts doesn’t sound quite right, but you don’t need to understand it right now. You need to learn it but do it under the bar. You think enough to be good at thinking and learning. You don’t do enough to be experienced and know what is going to work well and why it works, and you probably won’t for a long while yet, but that is just how learning goes and it’s the same for everyone myself included.

Once again good luck. You can’t rush the results. You have to make mistakes and learn. Rushing either results in injury or false expertise that doesn’t mean shit in the real world. You don’t want that.

28

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

That’s good. Start logging your 10,000 hours now (no, that’s not a typo). But get your ass in the gym in the mean time. Those 10,000 hours have an immensely strong “practicum” component that involves getting much stronger and much more of an athlete. [/quote]

Okay.

[quote] Yes. Much better. You know more than enough to get started. You don’t get a Ph.D sitting on the sidelines, you get into the lab. Likewise you don’t actually understand what’s going on until you’re in the gym. The limits you think are physical limits in terms of tolerance aren’t even halfway there.

Westside for Skinny Bastards is probably the best of the bunch for combination of basics and athleticism. It was geared for high school and beginning athletes needing to get stronger and bigger but also be athletic. Do the 2nd version for 3 months or so, exactly AS WRITTEN…then start the 3rd version.

Your novice stage lasts however long it lasts, until you get some appreciable progress in strength and conditioning. I have personally seen people who have been “training” regularly and not on/off for 5-10 years that are still novices with newbie gains to get. I have also seen people who go from novice to intermediate in a year and a half to 2. It depends on how hard you apply yourself to BOTH work and thought.

Your prehab external rotations and other stuff is useful to keep doing, especially with lots of punching (internal rotation and pronation) as part of your sport discipline. [/quote]

I’ve looked at the sample template or program on the Tnation article, Westside for skinny bastards part 1. Although, the problem I have with the W4SB template, is that there doesn’t seem to be enough pulling volume compared to the amount of pushing volume laid out in the program. I would like to add more pulling volume into the template in order to prevent any shoulder or other upper body muscle imbalances. I know that the author of the program and article had stated that it’s not written in stone in terms of what exercises you should do and that you can change some exercises or even add in some exercises; however, I don’t want to just add in a given exercise or substitute a given exercise that he mentioned in his template without knowing for sure if the way I modify the program to how I specifically want doesn’t end up being too work for me to do or consist of doing too much volume and/or intensity. So, I am wondering; for instance, if instead of doing curls at the end of the second upper workout of week, I do another pulling exercise such as rows? Also, what if addition to that substitution I do another pulling exercise such as pullovers on both the first upper body day and second upper body day? I know you think that pullovers are worthless, but actually training experts such as Elliot Hulse and Tom Kurz have stated that it’s actually an excellent for developing shoulder and thoracic mobility as well as stability. They also say that pullovers are supposed to be healthier for your shoulders than any given bench press variation.

[quote] No, your summary behind the barbell vs. dumbbell lifts doesn’t sound quite right, but you don’t need to understand it right now. You need to learn it but do it under Hi we were wondering if the apartment is still available. Also, would a mid-june move-in be okay and are dogs welcome.

You think enough to be good at thinking and learning. You don’t do enough to be experienced and know what is going to work well and why it works, and you probably won’t for a long while yet, but that is just how learning goes and it’s the same for everyone myself included.

Once again good luck. You can’t rush the results. You have to make mistakes and learn. Rushing either results in injury or false expertise that doesn’t mean shit in the real world. You don’t want that.[/quote]

Well, I don’t believe in rushing which is why I have been patient with trying figure out as smart of a plan as I can that will prevent overtraining, excess CNS fatigue, and/or injuries from weight training. I also don’t have a highly qualified personal trainer or a strength and conditioning coach who is not only available within my area locally and is affordable for me to pay for, but also has enough familiar experience on training martial artists. So, that why one of the major reasons why I keep looking and studying up on as much information on sports training, strength, and conditioning, etc. as I can in order to not make any costly mistakes and know for sure what programs will give me the optimal results for my training overall. In any case, I appreciate all the help you have given me. Thank you.

29

Bull, that’s why I said to look up the 2nd version of Westside for skinny bastards lol…you should be able to find it on Defranco’s website no problem I think.

The substitution of rows instead of curls is good. You should be striving to increase scapular/mid back activation first and then increasing weights. Dumbbell rows are fantastic, as are Pendlay rows (strict).

Substitution/addition of pullovers is not good. I already stated why, but it is a classic case of majoring in the minors as well. Of ALL the back exercises you could do, why are pullovers the best besides chin ups and rows? Pullovers directly encourage more internal rotation of the humerus, which is basically reinforcing an already overused motor pattern–internal rotation and pronation of the humerus in punching. This is one of the primary reasons many trainers don’t like the bench as a primary work pattern for somebody doing competitive MMA training–it actually encourages overuse injuries. Pullovers do the same thing in a different manner, but I do not believe they have the same benefits as the bench press either.

So why are they the best option? They aren’t. I am telling you from experience, you almost invariably get more mileage and strength out of another row variation. Hell I’d even rather put in face pulls. There may be a time an a place for pullovers, even for a fighter (I personally can’t see a good one, but there might be and I can admit it), but it is akin to putting a bet on the long shot green in roulette man. You have limited time and resources. You have to prioritize.

Just my .02

Version 2: Westside for Skinny Bastards, Part II - Official Website of Joe DeFranco & DeFranco’s Gym!

You can delete parts of the change of direction energy systems stuff and use the linear speed stuff instead. Chances are you don’t know how to do shuttle runs or spot drills effectively, and on your own to boot. Straight sprints on the other hand…those are doable.

30

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

Well, I don’t believe in rushing which is why I have been patient with trying figure out as smart of a plan as I can that will prevent overtraining, excess CNS fatigue, and/or injuries from weight training. [/quote]

What I said earlier…Your perceived limits are nowhere even close to your limits of tolerance wrt CNS drain or overtraining. If guys can work concrete pouring construction jobs for 8 hours a day (or like a couple acquaintances, roughneck an oil rig) and come back and train weights for 45 minutes 5 times a week, you can handle about a million times more than what you think. Just provided you don’t shotgun all of it at once to shock your system from zero to 100 mph. Currently you are going from zero to say 6 or 7 miles an hour. You need to step up the practice portion lol. Defranco’s program is perfect.

[quote]I also don’t have a highly qualified personal trainer or a strength and conditioning coach who is not only available within my area locally and is affordable for me to pay for, but also has enough familiar experience on training martial artists. So, that why one of the major reasons why I keep looking and studying up on as much information on sports training, strength, and conditioning, etc. as I can in order to not make any costly mistakes and know for sure what programs will give me the optimal results for my training overall. In any case, I appreciate all the help you have given me. Thank you.
[/quote]

Nothing wrong with reading. I have literally read every single article and report and summary–and livespill–T-Nation has put out since they started (up til the past couple months anyways) I read constantly from here and other places. It’s smart and it’s useful. But the bottom line is, you WILL make costly mistakes and you WILL make subpar choices. You learn from your mistakes more than you learn from your correct choices. There is 0 % chance you do it perfectly the first time unless you’re a savant like Mozart. I did it, Prof X did it, Eric Cressey, Eric Hulse…everyone.

31

Bull_Scientist,

You should really, really listen to Aragon. I am pretty much the “don’t get hurt”/“go see a doctor” guy, but you really can take that too far. It seems like you are letting the perfect not only be the enemy of the good, but be the genocidal destruction of the good.

If you approached your Hapkido training with this same attitude I cannot fathom how you could get any training done. You would still be researching uniforms, and what style to study. Instead you probably showed the hell up for class and ALSO spent a bunch of free time learning and researching. I suggest you do the same here.

I like Starting Strength, because I think proper form helps prevent some of the injuries that come with training, and the program will hammer in form. Aragon put in the word for Westside for Skinny Bastards, and that is pretty much my favorite program of all time and Aragon gets paid to train folks, so I will cede to his experience.

I don’t know much about you but I gather you are skinny and if you are only benching 95lbs weak. That is ok. Time to get strong.

Here is the link to Westside for Skinny Bastards II

It is a template for weight training, conditioning, and mobility. Read it and print it out.

How about making a plan to start it one week from monday. Working with that template, and ONLY with that template lets talk exercise selection from those offered. If you do not have equipment and Aragon doesn’t mind then we can talk about substitutions. Let’s get this done in the next week.

In the meantime I want you to also watch Dave Tate’s Bench Press Video, also brought to you by T-Nation, and practice this form with the bar ONLY.

Dave Tate's Six-Week Bench Press Cure - YouTube.

I will let Aragon decide if Box Squats or Free Squats are a better option, and we can get some technique videos for those to. That gives you something else to practice in the week before you start the program.

Next point:

I don’t want to beat the supplement drum too early, but a great many people find a protein supplement to be worth while. I am also a huge fan of vit D and Omega 3’s.

If you are in the US I will unhesitatingly recommend Biotest’s Flameout and their Grow and Metabolic Drive proteins. Those two supplements will help with recovery if you are so concerned with over training.

So, does this sound workable? Are you willing to start a program in a week?

Regards,

Robert A

32

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Bull, that’s why I said to look up the 2nd version of Westside for skinny bastards lol…you should be able to find it on Defranco’s website no problem I think.

The substitution of rows instead of curls is good. You should be striving to increase scapular/mid back activation first and then increasing weights. Dumbbell rows are fantastic, as are Pendlay rows (strict). [/quote]

Why do you advocate for dumbbell rows, not that I have any problem with myself, but I thought you believed in lifting as heavy as possible as a beginner. Dumbbell rows don’t allow you to row with the heaviest weight possible.

[quote] Version 2: Westside for Skinny Bastards, Part II - Official Website of Joe DeFranco & DeFranco’s Gym!

You can delete parts of the change of direction energy systems stuff and use the linear speed stuff instead. Chances are you don’t know how to do shuttle runs or spot drills effectively, and on your own to boot. Straight sprints on the other hand…those are doable. [/quote]

So if a lot of MMA trainers don’t like the bench as a primary work pattern for somebody doing MMA competitively then are suggesting that MMA athletes should never do exercises like the bench press?

Also, I was confused before as to what you actually meant by version 2 of the strength program, but now I see that you meant part 2 of the W4SB program.

33

[quote]Bull_Scientist wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Bull, that’s why I said to look up the 2nd version of Westside for skinny bastards lol…you should be able to find it on Defranco’s website no problem I think.

The substitution of rows instead of curls is good. You should be striving to increase scapular/mid back activation first and then increasing weights. Dumbbell rows are fantastic, as are Pendlay rows (strict). [/quote]

Why do you advocate for dumbbell rows, not that I have any problem with myself, but I thought you believed in lifting as heavy as possible as a beginner. Dumbbell rows don’t allow you to row with the heaviest weight possible.[/quote]

I do. No offense, but you need to read my posts better if you thought I was telling you to drop barbell rowing. I specifcally said Pendlay rows–aka strict barbell rows–were fantastic. It is NOT either/or. Besides which, if you tell me that you can row a 100 lb barbell but can’t row 50 lb dumbbells in one hand you have a problem. From a weight lifted per muscle group the two are mostly equivalent. Barbell rows have the cons of a) lending themselves rapidly to cheating with massive body english in order to “go heavy” and b) being draining on the lower back. Dumbbell rows address both of those issues. They are easier to maintain discipline on and you can do them with a hand supporting you on a bench so it makes lower back fatigue much less.

That being said, they are BOTH good forms of rowing, and at your level the low back strain should not be anywhere near problematic. If it is you are either doing them wrong or just need to sack up and get stronger while working on your core.

[quote] Version 2: Westside for Skinny Bastards, Part II - Official Website of Joe DeFranco & DeFranco’s Gym!

You can delete parts of the change of direction energy systems stuff and use the linear speed stuff instead. Chances are you don’t know how to do shuttle runs or spot drills effectively, and on your own to boot. Straight sprints on the other hand…those are doable. [/quote]

So if a lot of MMA trainers don’t like the bench as a primary work pattern for somebody doing MMA competitively then are suggesting that MMA athletes should never do exercises like the bench press?

Also, I was confused before as to what you actually meant by version 2 of the strength program, but now I see that you meant part 2 of the W4SB program.
[/quote]

Yes sorry, the part 2. He actually rebooted the program from scratch so to speak and came up with three different iterations, so it is a standalone version to address some things he left out in the first article, that’s why I called version 2 lol.

No I am not suggesting never do bench presses. I don’t rely on them as a primary indicator lift at all, but I do have the mma guys do them periodically because they are a basic foundational movement that involves a ton of muscle groups. It is just easy to reinforce bad habits or overworked patterns of recruitment.

What I was saying is that pullovers share almost all of the negatives about benching but none of the positives. I.E., they suck for 95% of the time. If you had to pick a movement that internally rotated the shoulder I’d infinitely pick one with the benefits of the bench press than the very, very limited “pros” of the pullover. It’s the opposite of good risk/reward. Row more, ditch pullovers. Rows are basic and don’t reinforce internal rotation at the shoulder along with further tighening of already chronically tight muscles. In addition, pullovers suck something terrible for whole back development, at best they only hit lats–they neglect upper, mid, lower traps, rear delts, rhomboids, spinal erectors…pretty much damn near everything. Bad risk/reward for overused patterns, bad at whole body development, bad at bang for your buck. Don’t do them 95% of the time. It’s three strikes.

Pullovers are not a basic movement anyway, and this entire thread is about getting to the big basics and away from shit that is not going to make you stronger or more powerful.

34

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Pullovers are not a basic movement anyway, and this entire thread is about getting to the big basics and away from shit that is not going to make you stronger or more powerful.
[/quote]

I am not sure that is an accurate description of what this thread is “about”.

It describes what your posts have been about, and my posts, and a bunch of other peoples posts.

Unfortunately, I don’t think Bull_Scientist is on that page, and since it is his thread his consent is pretty damn necessary.

To Bull_Scientist,

I am not trying to be combative here. However, I get the feeling you are here more to try to ask theoretical questions and poke holes in answers than to actually seek advice.

Regards,

Robert A

35

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Pullovers are not a basic movement anyway, and this entire thread is about getting to the big basics and away from shit that is not going to make you stronger or more powerful.
[/quote]

I am not sure that is an accurate description of what this thread is “about”.

It describes what your posts have been about, and my posts, and a bunch of other peoples posts.

Unfortunately, I don’t think Bull_Scientist is on that page, and since it is his thread his consent is pretty damn necessary.

To Bull_Scientist,

I am not trying to be combative here. However, I get the feeling you are here more to try to ask theoretical questions and poke holes in answers than to actually seek advice.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Agree 100%.

OP,
You originally posted to obtain information on how to become “stronger” for inproving your martial arts skills. Aragorn and Robert have both written detailed advise on your question. There comes a point in everyones training where the practical must outweigh the theoretical. I can study firearm procedures on proper grip, sight adjustment, trigger squezze, but, until I can actually fire on the range, I really dont know what area I need work in. I can watch YouTube all day about MT or Kali, but, unless I get in the gym, and, work with someone, it means nothing.

You need to decide what your personal goals are and start work. This is the combat forum with a multitude of experienced personnel in all phases of the art of fighting. Also not being combative, but it would appear the BB or BSL forums would provide what you need most.

36

SO much goodness in this thread…

I like when these ‘real’ trainer types jump in here.
Its nice.
thats not sarcasm
I so appreciate the wisdom folks like Sento Aragon Chris Colucci ,
classes up the joint.

I do however resent these 95 lb bench remarks
or is that resemble??

135 for more then 5 is allot for me.
shit 225 for a double,
I would stop it right there and buy a lotto ticket.

dont worry I AM banged up and old and injured
but I can OH squat 205 for a triple so its all ok.
right?

really when I read these kinds of posts.
I am not sure what to think.
that its cool to theorize

that there are some smart people here
that there are some parroting people here.

and the goons in my gym do dumb ass shit
like 4 hours of cable crossover- chest into OH curls and back.

and they bench allot.
but they are kind of getting kind bigger and stronger.

to an extent it really doesn’t matter what you do in weight room.
unless its an unbroken paragraph of gbberish that Aragon was kind enough
to decipher into something like 3 working sets.

I have to agree that WSFSB is great- get the right version.
dont overthink it.

37

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Bull, that’s why I said to look up the 2nd version of Westside for skinny bastards lol…you should be able to find it on Defranco’s website no problem I think. [/quote]

Actually, I still don’t totally get why you suggest the 2nd version and not start off with the 1st version.

okay.

[quote] Substitution/addition of pullovers is not good. I already stated why, but it is a classic case of majoring in the minors as well. Of ALL the back exercises you could do, why are pullovers the best besides chin ups and rows? Pullovers directly encourage more internal rotation of the humerus, which is basically reinforcing an already overused motor pattern–internal rotation and pronation of the humerus in punching. This is one of the primary reasons many trainers don’t like the bench as a primary work pattern for somebody doing competitive MMA training–it actually encourages overuse injuries. Pullovers do the same thing in a different manner, but I do not believe they have the same benefits as the bench press either.

So why are they the best option? They aren’t. I am telling you from experience, you almost invariably get more mileage and strength out of another row variation. Hell I’d even rather put in face pulls. There may be a time an a place for pullovers, even for a fighter (I personally can’t see a good one, but there might be and I can admit it), but it is akin to putting a bet on the long shot green in roulette man. You have limited time and resources. You have to prioritize.

Just my .02 [/quote]

I see what you’re saying, but I am sure if I totally agree with you on that. I mean while pullovers may not be able to build significant amount of upper body muscle, the exercise can still be an excellent shoulder and thoracic mobility exercise so long as you are using a dumbbell (which I personally use) or a barbell and not a path-guided (cam lever) pullover machine.

If I do the weight training sessions presribed in W4SB, then do I also have to do the prescribed conditioning days in order to make optimal gains in muscle mass and strength from the program or is it not necessary?

Furthermore, one the concerns I have with regard to the weight training sessions in the program, is that I dont have a swiss ball or a hyperextension bench or a sled or a pull through machine in order to do any one of the prescribed choices for a hip extension exercise. So, I am wondering if a free-weight substitute exercise such as the barbell stiff-legged exercise could be a viable substitute for any of the hip extension exercises listed on the program.

Additionally, I was wondering if it would be fine if I substituted pullovers (lol) and another row exercise for the prescribed exercises for the upper arm superset that’s performed on Thurs.

38

I like both versions. It doesn’t matter. Do whatever you want. Do a million pullovers, they’re great. I don’t care any more. But don’t you DARE post more threads asking for help when you won’t just get in the FUCKING gym and do something hard.

39

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
I like both versions. It doesn’t matter. Do whatever you want. Do a million pullovers, they’re great. I don’t care any more. But don’t you DARE post more threads asking for help when you won’t just get in the FUCKING gym and do something hard.[/quote]

Ok, seriously.

I think I can help.

If the sun is down…bourbon. Over ice is fine, especially if its hot out. Neat is also fine. I would peg Woodford as the proper starting point.

If the sun is up…bloody mary.

It will help.

A lot.

Don’t feel bad. You lasted longer than most of us could have. You clearly don’t have a Sentoguy level of patience/tolerance for punishment, but you did well. I think your posts probably helped some lurkers.

Now…bourbon or bloody mary.

Regards,

Robert A

40

kmcnyc,

A couple of notes:

RE: Your bench
At your body weight I think those bench numbers are far from 95 lbs at 155. With your athletic history I am not sure you were ever as weak as the OP’s claimed lifts. Hell, you were at a level were I am sure there were no genuinly weak people in the wrestling room. There are individuals though who are severely deconditioned when they start training a martial art.

RE: The bench in general
I think there is a pretty big difference between CAN bench and SHOULD bench. For most combat sports I am not sure if the bench is all that great of an exercise, but if the individual cannot put up a decent weight for reps without tearing themselves apart it is kind of a sign that they have issues that will get in the way of other more important training.

To a certain extent you and FightinIrish are both good examples of this. It isn’t that either of you need to bench to train. But both of you should not bench, and have issues that limits other, more important training. So, “How much ya bench?” winds up being a dirty screening question.

Additionally, rightly or wrongly the bench is sort of a common marker for a lot of coaches and school programs. I can understand professional trainers like DeFranco or Aragorn training it in because of this. If a bigger bench gets an athlete more opportunity than they sort of have a duty to take that into account, even if benching actually has fuck all to do with performing well.

RE:Parroting

Hey, I gave you credit.

Regards,

Robert A