I already posted about what I think works well for lat width, but I think it’s very important to keep those big compound exercises in there to build a complete back.
Bentover rows, deadlifts, rack deads, chins, IMO are integral for building a wide and thick back.
Personally, I like to frontload all of my feel movements in my workouts, and then do my heavy compound exercises at the end. For example, it might look like this:
Rack Chins/Chins
Pulldown variation: focus on TUT, use various holds at contraction
H/S Row: work up to top weight, use various holds at contraction
Single Arm Row or Pulldown: same as above
Close Grip Cable Row: same as above
Stretchers/Partial Pulldowns
Deadlifts/Rack Deads/Rows: Work up to top weight.
Doing the extended contractions and focusing on TUT with the first exercises really allows me to feel my lats and back working more on the compounds.
I think I have built a pretty solid back, and will continue to do so focusing on both heavy deads/chins/rows as well as smaller movements that target lat width.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
With all the talk of pullups and chinups, I just feel for bodybuilding pulldowns are superior for back development. It is easier to add weight and you can also get a lean back a bit to pull from a better angle. I will go six months without doing any pullups, just your typical back exercises with pulldowns in place of pullups, and I can jump on a pullup bar and do over 20 pullups EASY at BW of 215.
There are many many successful bodybuilders with huge backs that don’t do pullups and chinups.[/quote]
Agree completely. I don’t do pull ups, deadlifts or chin ups and I don’t see many here with a back bigger.
I know Vic Martinez does pull ups though as do so me others…but the way some people write here, you would think you couldn’t get big without those exercises.[/quote]
I think it’s very tough to build a complete back without doing a variation of the above you mentioned.
Just my opinion. Look at those with the best backs: Yates, Ronnie, etc…they all did some variation of at least one of the exercises you mentioned.
[quote]belligerent wrote:
Why do you care about “feeling” your lats? If you’re extending your shoulder, your lat is firing regardless of whether you’re aware of it. If your lats didn’t fire, you’d be helpless/disabled in everyday life.[/quote]
maximal development??? -_-[/quote]
Some muscles aren’t wired to be “felt.” Doesn’t mean you aren’t working them hard.
[quote]belligerent wrote:
Why do you care about “feeling” your lats? If you’re extending your shoulder, your lat is firing regardless of whether you’re aware of it. If your lats didn’t fire, you’d be helpless/disabled in everyday life.[/quote]
maximal development??? -_-[/quote]
Some muscles aren’t wired to be “felt.” Doesn’t mean you aren’t working them hard.[/quote]
Well, I would argue to say that to build lat width, it’s very important to do “feel” exercises where you squeeze at the point of contraction and teach yourself how to best initiate your lats in each respective movement.
[quote]belligerent wrote:
Why do you care about “feeling” your lats? If you’re extending your shoulder, your lat is firing regardless of whether you’re aware of it. If your lats didn’t fire, you’d be helpless/disabled in everyday life.[/quote]
maximal development??? -_-[/quote]
Some muscles aren’t wired to be “felt.” Doesn’t mean you aren’t working them hard.[/quote]
I agree. The muscle is working otherwise nothing would happen to begin with. With that said, there’s the difference between just using a muscle and building it. No disrespect was/is intended if that’s how it sounds.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
With all the talk of pullups and chinups, I just feel for bodybuilding pulldowns are superior for back development. It is easier to add weight and you can also get a lean back a bit to pull from a better angle. I will go six months without doing any pullups, just your typical back exercises with pulldowns in place of pullups, and I can jump on a pullup bar and do over 20 pullups EASY at BW of 215.
There are many many successful bodybuilders with huge backs that don’t do pullups and chinups.[/quote]
Agree completely. I don’t do pull ups, deadlifts or chin ups and I don’t see many here with a back bigger.
I know Vic Martinez does pull ups though as do so me others…but the way some people write here, you would think you couldn’t get big without those exercises.[/quote]
I think it’s very tough to build a complete back without doing a variation of the above you mentioned.
Just my opinion. Look at those with the best backs: Yates, Ronnie, etc…they all did some variation of at least one of the exercises you mentioned. [/quote]
Lee Haney liked T-bar rows. Ben White avoided deadlifts until recently when he started doing more powerlifting training. You have many different types of rows to choose from. What makes the above irreplaceable? I spent years working on T-bar rows…and still do at least 2-3 different rowing movement per training session (usually 3).
[quote]belligerent wrote:
Why do you care about “feeling” your lats? If you’re extending your shoulder, your lat is firing regardless of whether you’re aware of it. If your lats didn’t fire, you’d be helpless/disabled in everyday life.[/quote]
maximal development??? -_-[/quote]
Some muscles aren’t wired to be “felt.” Doesn’t mean you aren’t working them hard.[/quote]
Well, I would argue to say that to build lat width, it’s very important to do “feel” exercises where you squeeze at the point of contraction and teach yourself how to best initiate your lats in each respective movement. [/quote]
I agree…but I also agree that I see relative newbs getting caught up in this when it usually takes even experienced lifters a while to feel certain muscle groups during a movement. Some people need to just learn how to do the movement correctly…and I would say most newbs fall into that category.
X, How did your back feel after the that back complex and bicep routine a couple days ago. The complex looked like it did a good job of hitting the back fairly well.
I disagree Spartee, You need to be able to feel the lats moving. I think you’re right that yes the muscle is being worked but I think the issue is that you’re not focused on the muscle you’re training.
Instead of chins, I’d focus as posted earlier on Lat pull downs. Use a weight that allows you to flare your lats (like you have I.L.S) and squeeze. As you build the connection to the muscle, increase the weight.
[quote]riverhawk23 wrote:
X, How did your back feel after the that back complex and bicep routine a couple days ago. The complex looked like it did a good job of hitting the back fairly well.[/quote]
Yeah, I feel it in my lower lats now. Looking at the vids, I now know I use my traps quit a bit in any back movement so I may need to focus on “lower” rowing movements as far as hand placement. I was already doing the hold at the bottom and yeah, that made a big difference.
I a not sure you guys can see the pace we are moving at in the vids because of how it gets edited, but that is what makes the difference. Doing this many sets my usual way would take two hours considering how long I rest between sets so I can use more weight. We are doing this in half the time and sometimes I don’t even get to catch my breath before doing it again.
[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
I disagree Spartee, You need to be able to feel the lats moving. I think you’re right that yes the muscle is being worked but I think the issue is that you’re not focused on the muscle you’re training.
Instead of chins, I’d focus as posted earlier on Lat pull downs. Use a weight that allows you to flare your lats (like you have I.L.S) and squeeze. As you build the connection to the muscle, increase the weight.[/quote]
Bingo. For many, doing chins may not allow you to feel that muscle working. You are busy holding yourself in the air. Pull downs are great for this.
I agree with the pullup/pulldown comments. I personally do both and have had fantastic results using both. That being said, I think pullups are one exercise that will not fail you and will not only help with back development, but strengthen areas of your body that pulldowns simply cannot target.
Also, if you focus on squeezing your lats on pullups and bringing your sternum to the bar, they can crush your lats, even if you have to do assisted reps or sets with very low reps.
To OP just a suggestion you could try hitting back 3 or 4 times a week and force yourself to train lats while they are sore to aid in feeling them. I remember CT doing something similar for Daryl Gee?
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
To OP just a suggestion you could try hitting back 3 or 4 times a week and force yourself to train lats while they are sore to aid in feeling them. I remember CT doing something similar for Daryl Gee? [/quote]
I hit my back yesterday morning with pull ups to failure, chin ups to failure, rack pull ups to failure, pulldowns to failure, and a few sets of heavy Kroc Rows, and some hangs.
Went in this morning and did CT’s tri-set, like 20 sets of pulldowns, some Kayak Rows, and some hangs.
My lats have felt more sore in the past, but I’m guessing I won’t be able to get out of bed tomorrow morning, but I plan on going in the next few mornings for just some isolation work with a peak contraction.
My left shoulder still gets a good burn out of some of these exercises but I’m not sure why.
[quote]howie424 wrote:
I hit my back yesterday morning with pull ups to failure, chin ups to failure, rack pull ups to failure, pulldowns to failure, and a few sets of heavy Kroc Rows, and some hangs.
Went in this morning and did CT’s tri-set, like 20 sets of pulldowns, some Kayak Rows, and some hangs.
My lats have felt more sore in the past, but I’m guessing I won’t be able to get out of bed tomorrow morning, but I plan on going in the next few mornings for just some isolation work with a peak contraction.
My left shoulder still gets a good burn out of some of these exercises but I’m not sure why. [/quote]
[quote]howie424 wrote:
What do you suggest for my lat session tomorrow morning?
Should I destroy them one more time before I start back into CT’s isolation work?[/quote]
Nah, if they are sore then just focus on finding a few movements that feel really good.
I mean you could perhaps try more rowing less pulldowns/ups if your shoulder is still hampering your efforts, but I am just biased towards dumbbell rows
If you are not sore then you didn’t massage/hit the rows hard enough.
