Height Transferring Into Bench

Training Powerlifting
21

Short muscles and leverage are only part of it. Physically speaking, short arms have a shorter distance to travel and thus less work to do,

work = force * distance.

This means that for the person to lift an ammount of wieght (concentrically) in an amount of time requires less power to do so than the person with longer arm wanting to execute the lift in the same amount of time. Which can be shown as

power = work / time.

For example to move 100kg 60cm requires 590joules of energy (joule is a unit of energy which we use to describe the amount of work done). To execute the lift requires in one second for the person with shorter arms it requires 590watts of power (assuming the distance is approx 60cm). For the person with longer arms (100cm, which is an extreme exageration) it would reqire approximately 980 watts. Thus the shorter the arm lenght the less power required to lift a given weight (concentrically) which means usually shorter arms can do more reps. This is an over-simplification and should not be taken literraly because of the many other factors involved–like muscle girth, etc.

22

[quote]Jersey5150 wrote:
I am commited to having a good bench but I dont imagine that two people at say 191 lbs. one being over six foot and the other being 5’5" all things being equal. that the shorter guy is gonna always bench more.
[/quote]

Being 191lbs and over 6’ would make you a skinny, girlie man-boy, while 191 and 5’5" would make you a nugget.

This line of thinking is absolutely retarded when it comes to lifting heavy-ass weights. If the guy who weighs 191lbs at over 6’ wants a good bench, he should put on some goddamn weight. That is the beauty of having a larger frame - you can put a shitload more muscle on it. A point missed by the whingers here.

23

[quote]Massif wrote:
Jersey5150 wrote:
I am commited to having a good bench but I dont imagine that two people at say 191 lbs. one being over six foot and the other being 5’5" all things being equal. that the shorter guy is gonna always bench more.

Being 191lbs and over 6’ would make you a skinny, girlie man-boy, while 191 and 5’5" would make you a nugget.

This line of thinking is absolutely retarded when it comes to lifting heavy-ass weights. If the guy who weighs 191lbs at over 6’ wants a good bench, he should put on some goddamn weight. That is the beauty of having a larger frame - you can put a shitload more muscle on it. A point missed by the whingers here.[/quote]

I agree with what you said and yes weight fat or muscle can improve your bench. More muscle you move more weight, fatter gut you have to move the weight a lesser distance so you could move more.

However the original point is that limb length and weight combined affect your becnch strenth 6’+ and 280 and 5’+ and 280 the shorter guy is gonna be stronger in the bench because of his better leverage, most of the time.

At least I have never seen it happen any other way.

24

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Short muscles and leverage are only part of it. Physically speaking, short arms have a shorter distance to travel and thus less work to do,

work = force * distance.

This means that for the person to lift an ammount of wieght (concentrically) in an amount of time requires less power to do so than the person with longer arm wanting to execute the lift in the same amount of time. Which can be shown as

power = work / time.

For example to move 100kg 60cm requires 590joules of energy (joule is a unit of energy which we use to describe the amount of work done). To execute the lift requires in one second for the person with shorter arms it requires 590watts of power (assuming the distance is approx 60cm). For the person with longer arms (100cm, which is an extreme exageration) it would reqire approximately 980 watts. Thus the shorter the arm lenght the less power required to lift a given weight (concentrically) which means usually shorter arms can do more reps. This is an over-simplification and should not be taken literraly because of the many other factors involved–like muscle girth, etc.[/quote]

yeah…what he said

Thanks bro, this is a good basic explanation of what is going on, I didnt have to take physics so I missed this stuff.

The other factors would seem to be something along the lines of having two lifters with short arms the one with the larger diameter chest is again going to have a shorter distance to move the weight. And therefore will be able to move it farther.

25

[quote]Massif wrote:
Jersey5150 wrote:
I am commited to having a good bench but I dont imagine that two people at say 191 lbs. one being over six foot and the other being 5’5" all things being equal. that the shorter guy is gonna always bench more.

Being 191lbs and over 6’ would make you a skinny, girlie man-boy, while 191 and 5’5" would make you a nugget.

This line of thinking is absolutely retarded when it comes to lifting heavy-ass weights. If the guy who weighs 191lbs at over 6’ wants a good bench, he should put on some goddamn weight. That is the beauty of having a larger frame - you can put a shitload more muscle on it. A point missed by the whingers here.[/quote]

I’ve heard of short guys putting on weight at 3000 cals a day. I need near 5000 cals. It’s harder, that’s all there is to it. It’s not undoable, and I don’t think anyone is making excuses for themselves, but tall people have to be aware of that disadvantage.

Also, because of my height, I can have the same measurements as a short person (who needs less muscle mass to reach those measurements) and I still look smaller, because my proportions are different. Why pretend there is no difference?

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[quote]larryb wrote:
If exactly proportional, then they would be stronger. Imagine a static hold in bench press, and an 8x proportional weight increase (double in height). Muscle cross-section is 4x larger (maximum force output is approximately proportional to cross-section). Limb length is double, but tendon attachment is also twice as far from the pivots, so the leverage is unchanged. So at least for the simple case of a static hold, a person 8 times heavier would be 4 times stronger, and a person twice the size would be about 1.6 times stronger.

Of course, tall people are generally not built like short people. Even if a bigger person were shaped exactly like a smaller person, the bigger person would require a larger proportion of bone mass for equivalent support - a fifty foot man exactly proportional to a normal six foot man would collapse under his own weight.[/quote]

Ahh, I see. Good points.

Kind of like the reason giant ants could never exist (for the same reason you listed about the 50ft man).

I just don’t like it when a tall, out of shape guy tells me that the reason my bench is good is because my arms are short (said as if to imply that’s the only reason). I know that no one here is implying that, but a guy I used to work with a while back, did.

I also asked about this on another forum a long time ago, and someone gave me the following study with references (I never checked the reference, butthe woman posting it is VERY reliable, and is a moderator for the formum I was on):

"Relationships of structural dimensions to bench press strength in college males.

Mayhew JL, Ball TE, Ward TE, Hart CL, Arnold MD.

Human Performance Laboratory, Northeast Missouri State University, Kirksville.

The purpose of this study was to determine the relationships between structural dimensions and bench press performance in college males.

Members of required fitness classes (n = 170) were measured after 14 weeks of strength and aerobic endurance training. Anthropometric dimensions included upper arm and chest circumferences, upper and lower arm lengths, shoulder and hip widths, %fat, and height.

Arm muscle cross-sectional area (CSA) was calculated from upper arm circumference corrected for triceps skinfold. Drop distance was measured from the bar to the pectoral muscles.

Multiple regression analysis selected upper arm CSA, %fat, and chest circumference as the best items to predict bench press strength (R = 0.83; SEE = 11.6 kg).

Cross-validation of the prediction equation on a similar sample (n = 89) produced an r = 0.74 between predicted and actual bench press (t = 0.53, p greater than 0.50).

In a second cross validation sample (n = 57) who had trained more extensively with weights, the correlation between predicted and actual bench press was r = 0.57 (p less than 0.05).

The prediction equations significantly (t = 6.59, p less than 0.01) underestimated bench press performance in the more extensively weight trained subjects.

The results of this study suggest that bench press performance is related to structural dimensions in males and that extensive strength training may alter the relationship between size and strength.

PMID: 1753717 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

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Guys, I haven’t explained myself very well in this thread. I agree that leverage comes into it. I get that, I understand it, but at the end of the day, why worry about something you can’t change? Unless you are going to get surgery to shorten your limbs, concentrate on what you can control, which is what you do in the gym, what you eat, etc. NOT how short guys have all the breaks when it comes to bench.

Your proportions look different to a shorter guy even though you have the same measurements? Of course - You have a bigger frame to fill out. It’s like trying to build a bigger fortress with the same number of bricks. If you are taller than someone, get more bricks, and build a bigger fortress.

I have seen lots of guys shorter than me bench a lot more than me. I never once thought “It’s only because he is so short”. I always thought “Fuck me, I had better get back to training so I can kick that midget’s ass”.

Seriously, these threads give me the shits (that has probably come across clear enough). Same with people who whinge that 10lbs of extra muscle doesn’t show up as much when you are 6’ compared with 5’5". Technically, they are right as well. Suck it the fuck up and deal with it. 10lbs don’t show up? Put on 30lbs then. Short guy benches more than you? Get stronger. It’s that fucking simple.

28

[quote]Massif wrote:
Guys, I haven’t explained myself very well in this thread. I agree that leverage comes into it. I get that, I understand it, but at the end of the day, why worry about something you can’t change? Unless you are going to get surgery to shorten your limbs, concentrate on what you can control, which is what you do in the gym, what you eat, etc. NOT how short guys have all the breaks when it comes to bench.

Your proportions look different to a shorter guy even though you have the same measurements? Of course - You have a bigger frame to fill out. It’s like trying to build a bigger fortress with the same number of bricks. If you are taller than someone, get more bricks, and build a bigger fortress.

I have seen lots of guys shorter than me bench a lot more than me. I never once thought “It’s only because he is so short”. I always thought “Fuck me, I had better get back to training so I can kick that midget’s ass”.

Seriously, these threads give me the shits (that has probably come across clear enough). Same with people who whinge that 10lbs of extra muscle doesn’t show up as much when you are 6’ compared with 5’5". Technically, they are right as well. Suck it the fuck up and deal with it. 10lbs don’t show up? Put on 30lbs then. Short guy benches more than you? Get stronger. It’s that fucking simple.[/quote]

That’s a great mindset to have. I think the point of this thread wasn’t to whine about that issue, but to bring it to light. Totally agree w/ you though.

29

[quote]Panther1015 wrote:
Massif wrote:
Guys, I haven’t explained myself very well in this thread. I agree that leverage comes into it. I get that, I understand it, but at the end of the day, why worry about something you can’t change? Unless you are going to get surgery to shorten your limbs, concentrate on what you can control, which is what you do in the gym, what you eat, etc. NOT how short guys have all the breaks when it comes to bench.

Your proportions look different to a shorter guy even though you have the same measurements? Of course - You have a bigger frame to fill out. It’s like trying to build a bigger fortress with the same number of bricks. If you are taller than someone, get more bricks, and build a bigger fortress.

I have seen lots of guys shorter than me bench a lot more than me. I never once thought “It’s only because he is so short”. I always thought “Fuck me, I had better get back to training so I can kick that midget’s ass”.

Seriously, these threads give me the shits (that has probably come across clear enough). Same with people who whinge that 10lbs of extra muscle doesn’t show up as much when you are 6’ compared with 5’5". Technically, they are right as well. Suck it the fuck up and deal with it. 10lbs don’t show up? Put on 30lbs then. Short guy benches more than you? Get stronger. It’s that fucking simple.

That’s a great mindset to have. I think the point of this thread wasn’t to whine about that issue, but to bring it to light. Totally agree w/ you though.[/quote]

I completely agree as well.
I like the way this thread has gone, especially compared to some others I’ve seen, and some other conversations I’ve had.

I’d like to see approximately how much added leverage there is, maybe per inch on each arm.

I’ve heard some people use the “He’s short that’s why his bench is better” with a 198lb guy benching over 600lbs (Dave Waterman), when they’re stuck in the mid 200s.
I’m sure that the 350ish extra pounds that Dave can bench is not due only to his short arms compared to the taller guy making the comment (at my gym years ago).

It’s good to see some taller guys here being more open minded than many other people I’ve heard.

30

Theres nothing worse than hearing a tall person complain about being tall. What next porn stars complainig of chafing?

31

Oh, Massif, I agree with you totally. If a person is making excuses, they are only hurting themselves. But it is important to understand. When I first started working out, I put on 30 lbs in a couple of months, and like 3 people, out of the 70 or so I saw on a regular basis, noticed. That sucked.

My training partner put on like 10 pounds, and everyone was telling him how much bigger he looked. I have to say, it was very demotivating. You talk about having a bigger frame to fill out, and I agree. When I reach my goal, I am going to legally change my last name to “Huge”, so people actually have to call me “Dr. Huge”, but it still does suck a little that I’ll need to weigh ~270lbs to look similar to a 200 lbs short guy.

32

You short people make good points but a tall person does have to makeup for the disadvantage of having to do more work by manipulating leverage (cross sectional area)–i.e. growing bigger stonger muscles.

I don’t think anyone was complaining about having an unfair disadvantage because they have long limbs but just wanted a general explaination of how physiology can influence a persons predisposition towards strength.

33

Speaking of being short, I hate when big guys come up to me and say, “You have it easier because you’re short. You can pack on more size and strength than bigger guys.”

I have no idea where they get that idea, but it definitely isn’t true! Sure, for a short guy with a mesomorphic frame and short leverages and even long muscle bellies, this may be true. But for those of us with short torsos, long, lean limbs and a small bone frame, we have to work just as hard as the tall guys who are trying to pack on size and strength.

Also, it’s true that 10lbs makes a bigger difference on our frame than a taller guy who puts on 10lbs, but the same goes for fat gain. I can gain 5-10lbs of fat and look like shit. No abs whatsoever and love handles, and still not be very large or muscular looking. Whereas, a taller guy could put on 5-10lbs of fat, and it may not show up as much. So it goes both ways.

Work hard. Eat right. Put in the time. Consistency is key in all respects.

34

I think there’s a knee-jerk reaction on these forums to accuse people of whining and making excuses, when often questions are being asked in the interest of elucidating truths and gaining knowledge. Can’t someone ask if there’s a physical advantage to having shorter limbs when it comes to bench pressing? How does that qualify as whining? Should we not bother to understand these things at all since to do so INSTANTLY qualifies one as being a pussy?

Anyway, I can see it being of benefit simply from a psychological point of view. If a guy is busting his ass in the gym day in and day out only to see others who are half-assing it blow past him in certain lifts, it’s perfectly natural and acceptable for him to try and understand why that might be. For instance, is he doing something WRONG that needs to be CORRECTED in order to improve the rate at which he gains strength, or are there other explanations that are more likely such as structural differences, use of steroids, etc. Sure this has no influence on his own ability get stronger, but at least it can help him to understand if he’s doing something wrong or not.

I know that I’ve personally followed a number of strength routines from this website and achieved virtually zero improvements in certain lifts while others claim to have added tens of pounds to their 1RMs in a matter of weeks. That’s discouraging. I see no harm in trying to understand why that might be.

35

[quote]larryb wrote:

  • a fifty foot man exactly proportional to a normal six foot man would collapse under his own weight.[/quote]

Prove it smart guy :wink:

DB

36

[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:
Speaking of being short, I hate when big guys come up to me and say, “You have it easier because you’re short. You can pack on more size and strength than bigger guys.”

I have no idea where they get that idea, but it definitely isn’t true! Sure, for a short guy with a mesomorphic frame and short leverages and even long muscle bellies, this may be true. But for those of us with short torsos, long, lean limbs and a small bone frame, we have to work just as hard as the tall guys who are trying to pack on size and strength.

Also, it’s true that 10lbs makes a bigger difference on our frame than a taller guy who puts on 10lbs, but the same goes for fat gain. I can gain 5-10lbs of fat and look like shit. No abs whatsoever and love handles, and still not be very large or muscular looking. Whereas, a taller guy could put on 5-10lbs of fat, and it may not show up as much. So it goes both ways.

Work hard. Eat right. Put in the time. Consistency is key in all respects.[/quote]

Doesn’t really all come down to muscle volume/strength variations really? Take 2 guys who are exactly identical, both have 18" biceps, 18" neck, etc… and the muscles on both of them have exactly the same strength, the only difference being that one guy has arms 3" shorter than the other.

Now, will the guy with the shorter arms have a little bit easier time lifting the weight because he has to push it the least distance - probably. Is it going to be a significant difference - I doubt it.

Bottom line - work hard in the gym and worry about yourself. You can only work with what you have.

To answer the original question posted by Chadicus22, does it make a difference? Yes. Is it significant? No

Just my 2 cents.

-BD

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[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
larryb wrote:

  • a fifty foot man exactly proportional to a normal six foot man would collapse under his own weight.

Prove it smart guy :wink:

DB[/quote]

Easy. Weight is (50/6)^3 times higher, spine cross section is (50/6)^2 times higher. So, pressure on the spine (force per unit area) is 50/6 or about 8 times higher. Hmmm, that’s not enough for the spine to fail immediately if he stands still, but he wouldn’t last long. I suppose any sort of movement would tear muscles, tendons, and ligaments, and the resulting fall would be a disaster.

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[quote]ChrisPowers wrote:
I think there’s a knee-jerk reaction on these forums to accuse people of whining and making excuses, when often questions are being asked in the interest of elucidating truths and gaining knowledge. Can’t someone ask if there’s a physical advantage to having shorter limbs when it comes to bench pressing? How does that qualify as whining? Should we not bother to understand these things at all since to do so INSTANTLY qualifies one as being a pussy?
[/quote]

There is also a tendency for those that sympathise with whingers to defend them:)

From the original post:

“Does a smaller person have an easier time benching than a person above 6’2"”

The implication is that benching for short guys is easy, NOT are they biomechanically better suited for it.

Nate Dogg’s post included:

“I’m only 5’4” but I have long arms (like many of the tall guys), and my bench is nothing great because of that. But I have a friend who is an inch taller with short, thick arms and he benched 391 at 148lbs in the teen class (18-19) while in college."

The implication is that long arms (like tall guys arms) are fucking up Nate’s bench. Not that his friend is a world record holdering bench fiend who trained his ass off.

Tall Tom wrote:

“I am 6’ 4 1/4” tall and I have a wingpsan of 6’ 8".
I can not bench press much at all."

Let me translate - “Whinge”.

Alexsandr wrote:

“I’ve heard of short guys putting on weight at 3000 cals a day. I need near 5000 cals”

No mention of different metabolisms, just the fact that short motherfuckers have great benches AND do so by eating less.

50% of this thread sounds like my daughter when she doesn’t get what she wants, 25% is guys explaining things biomechanically, and 25% is guys saying “suck it up, Cecil, and try harder”.

PS Pussy :slight_smile:

39

[quote]Chadicus22 wrote:
I always have this argument with people (mainly because im 6’4 lol) Anyway here it goes… Does a smaller person (lets say lee priest-type-build) have an easier time benching than a person above 6’2 ? Like, if you think about it the distance from my lowest point to my highest point is a lot farther distance to push the weight up than a smaller person. Or is it all relative a.k.a a bigger guy has farther to go but more power to do so? just wondwerin, thanks guys.[/quote]

Definately, I’m only 5’4" and while in High school I had the bench press record of 345lbs. There were guys in there who were bigger than me height wise and had bigger arms, but I always had the feeling it had something to do with the muscles being in a more compact package and therefore having more of an explosise nature. It sounds kind of stupid, but it takes more energy to move 200 pounds 29 inches than it does to move it 19 inches. I’m 5’4" and roughly 190-195lbs.

40

I’m 6’4" with an armspan of 6’8". Two days ago I finally reached a 10 y/o goal of 315. I will be going heavier. When I set the goal I weighed 175 (260 now) and could not bench 200lbs. I went from 250 to 315 this last year without using any real powerlifting workouts, and here’s what contributed:

  1. Improved body form and positioning. Getting tight, squeezing shoulder blades, leg drive. Squating heavy helps.

  2. Moved my hands so that index finger is on the “ring”. Don’t know if that’s legal in competition, but Ido it.

3)Started doing OVT and new GVT, more sets, less reps, more weight

4)Broke my wrist one year ago, not being able to really lift for 12 weeks finally made me hungry to work hard.

  1. One cycle of MAG-10 and one cyle of Superdrol. I did 2 weeks on 2 weeks off for a total of 8 weeks on each at different times of the year. I never really put on a bunch of mass, but my strength went up nicely, and have held on those gains.