Damn, he outweighs you by almost 50 lbs and you can outbench him? Damn. He must be ridiculously weak or you must be some kind of freak on bench. What kind of numbers are both of you throwing up?
And he’s 215 lbs at 6 foot? That’s like exactly where I want to be… I’m 200-205lbs at about 11-14% BF if I had to guess… when I get to that point I’ll be a beast haha… you guys have any pics?
[quote]Joe Joseph wrote:
andersons wrote:
And BTW, biomechanical leverage is not an “excuse,” it’s cold, hard reality.
But doesn’t the fact that they have longer muscles make up for that, or at least the fact that there is more “room” for mass?
Plus it makes a small difference compared to the difference that neurological advantages have, which the small or tall guy could have.
This Tall guy could have long levers but a less primed neuro-muscular system simply meaning, HE IS NOT AS STRONG! i just think it is an excuse… how tall are you?! 
Joe[/quote]
No, longer muscles are not stronger muscles. That’s not the way it works.
Of course this tall guy IS NOT STRONG – but there is a REASON he is not strong. The REASON is that his brain WILL NOT recruit many muscle fibers at once because the major limiting factor is stress on the joints. The long-armed guy has MORE stress on the joints than the short-armed guy benching the SAME weight. The weight is the same; the stress on the joints is NOT the same. I’m telling you, the brain controls the muscles, and the brain cares about the forces on the joints.
This is why, if you tightly wrap up a joint, you can immediately lift more weight.
…wellll it sounds to me like your friend is just plain weaker than you and likes using excuses to justify his ego…i mean cmon…the thing about the leg raise and taking into account leg weight…pussy.
(p.s. yes i believe all the leverage crap, but still this guy seems to be the kind that really like to make excuses whenever they can)
hmm okay interesting stuff…but from my understanding and i might be wrong…but most of the men who compete in the world strongest men competition are over 5’10… I never see anyone my height in those competition…then again I might be wrong…
[quote]jay_69_30 wrote:
hmm okay interesting stuff…but from my understanding and i might be wrong…but most of the men who compete in the world strongest men competition are over 5’10… I never see anyone my height in those competition…then again I might be wrong…
[/quote]
yeah because strongman is not powerlifting, there lifting like cars and pulling trains where more size is an advantage. A lot of the events hight helps a lot.
it has been mentioned a few times that what is often helpful in sport are drawbacks in the gym as far as levers and advantages
[quote]andersons wrote:
Joe Joseph wrote:
andersons wrote:
And BTW, biomechanical leverage is not an “excuse,” it’s cold, hard reality.
But doesn’t the fact that they have longer muscles make up for that, or at least the fact that there is more “room” for mass?
Plus it makes a small difference compared to the difference that neurological advantages have, which the small or tall guy could have.
This Tall guy could have long levers but a less primed neuro-muscular system simply meaning, HE IS NOT AS STRONG! i just think it is an excuse… how tall are you?!
Joe
No, longer muscles are not stronger muscles. That’s not the way it works.
Of course this tall guy IS NOT STRONG – but there is a REASON he is not strong. The REASON is that his brain WILL NOT recruit many muscle fibers at once because the major limiting factor is stress on the joints. The long-armed guy has MORE stress on the joints than the short-armed guy benching the SAME weight. The weight is the same; the stress on the joints is NOT the same. I’m telling you, the brain controls the muscles, and the brain cares about the forces on the joints.
This is why, if you tightly wrap up a joint, you can immediately lift more weight.[/quote]
You make a good argument, and i DO agree with alot of what you say… except have you heard yourself? You are saying, that all things being equal all shorter guys are going to be or capable of being stronger than taller guys!
I understand your argument, and as i explained, i agree with alot. Levers DO have a negative/positive impact. But there are alot of things going on in human contractile tissue and the capable strength of the organism.
The impulses are not just “not firing” so as to reduce forces in the muscle to reduce tendon/joint strain and shearing forces due to the disadvantaged levers.
It is also, and i would hazard a guess, that mostly it is due to the conditioning of his neuro-muscular system. THE FACT HE ISN’T AS STRONG, and this is NOT (well it COULD be, i admit) because he is a lanky fucker. As the disadvantage his levers cause are potentially overcome by the longer, WIDER* muscles and the ability to carry more mass. He weighs more than the smaller lad, he is the same BF%, he is highly likely to have the extra muscle mass to off set any lever issues*, but his neuro-muscular system is not as conditioned as his vertically challenged hombre.
(I did NOT claim a longer muscle is a stronger muscle. ever! I never will! lol)
Joe
[quote]Joe Joseph wrote:
You make a good argument, and i DO agree with alot of what you say… except have you heard yourself? You are saying, that all things being equal all shorter guys are going to be or capable of being stronger than taller guys! [/quote]
Well, of course I don’t think that.
Of course training is a huge factor. A guy with long arms can outtrain a guy with short arms.
And length isn’t really the only factor in the whole biomechanical picture of leverage. The width and density of the joints is another. And the relation to the torso width.
So if I see a guy with long arms, but thick-looking elbows and wrists, and a wide torso, I don’t expect him to be weak. The joint size tells you a lot. And bigger joints are accompanied by bigger muscles between them. But guys like this are not described as “lanky.” They’re usually called “big.”
“Lanky” describes the poor guy with long limbs and thin joints and usually narrow torso width too. I don’t expect to see massive benching from these guys. You don’t see guys who look like Kevin McHale in powerlifting competitions. If they do a decent bench, you can bet they worked their butts off to get there.
If you could make the shorter guy’s arms 8" longer, making the bones and muscles longer but not wider or denser, and change nothing else, he would immediately be weaker in the bench and in pullups.
[quote] I understand your argument, and as i explained, i agree with alot. Levers DO have a negative/positive impact. But there are alot of things going on in human contractile tissue and the capable strength of the organism.
The impulses are not just “not firing” so as to reduce forces in the muscle to reduce tendon/joint strain and shearing forces due to the disadvantaged levers.
It is also, and i would hazard a guess, that mostly it is due to the conditioning of his neuro-muscular system. THE FACT HE ISN’T AS STRONG, and this is NOT (well it COULD be, i admit) because he is a lanky fucker. As the disadvantage his levers cause are potentially overcome by the longer, WIDER* muscles and the ability to carry more mass. He weighs more than the smaller lad, he is the same BF%, he is highly likely to have the extra muscle mass to off set any lever issues*, but his neuro-muscular system is not as conditioned as his vertically challenged hombre.
(I did NOT claim a longer muscle is a stronger muscle. ever! I never will! lol) [/quote]
Well, I misunderstood the longer muscles comment then.
It’s surely possible that this taller guy is weak due to lack of training, where his brain just doesn’t recruit many muscle fibers. On a second look, you are right that the taller guy weighs proportionately more than the shorter guy. But I assumed that these guys train together, and the shorter one is lifting more weight sooner in the bench and pullups, which is to be expected from the difference in length of arms.
Or it could be a combination of lack of training and disadvantaged levers.
People who don’t have disadvantages never seem to understand them. 
So it is a mistake for this guy to try to explain his lack of strength to his buddy. He’d be better off pushing himself to improve relative to HIMSELF.
[quote]Fulmen wrote:
4.3% body fat…
Height arguments…
Weight arguments…
Idiots.[/quote]
I agree…is this an arguement about ego?
[quote]andersons wrote:
Joe Joseph wrote:
You make a good argument, and i DO agree with alot of what you say… except have you heard yourself? You are saying, that all things being equal all shorter guys are going to be or capable of being stronger than taller guys!
Well, of course I don’t think that.
Of course training is a huge factor. A guy with long arms can outtrain a guy with short arms.
And length isn’t really the only factor in the whole biomechanical picture of leverage. The width and density of the joints is another. And the relation to the torso width.
So if I see a guy with long arms, but thick-looking elbows and wrists, and a wide torso, I don’t expect him to be weak. The joint size tells you a lot. And bigger joints are accompanied by bigger muscles between them. But guys like this are not described as “lanky.” They’re usually called “big.”
“Lanky” describes the poor guy with long limbs and thin joints and usually narrow torso width too. I don’t expect to see massive benching from these guys. You don’t see guys who look like Kevin McHale in powerlifting competitions. If they do a decent bench, you can bet they worked their butts off to get there.
If you could make the shorter guy’s arms 8" longer, making the bones and muscles longer but not wider or denser, and change nothing else, he would immediately be weaker in the bench and in pullups.
I understand your argument, and as i explained, i agree with alot. Levers DO have a negative/positive impact. But there are alot of things going on in human contractile tissue and the capable strength of the organism.
The impulses are not just “not firing” so as to reduce forces in the muscle to reduce tendon/joint strain and shearing forces due to the disadvantaged levers.
It is also, and i would hazard a guess, that mostly it is due to the conditioning of his neuro-muscular system. THE FACT HE ISN’T AS STRONG, and this is NOT (well it COULD be, i admit) because he is a lanky fucker. As the disadvantage his levers cause are potentially overcome by the longer, WIDER* muscles and the ability to carry more mass. He weighs more than the smaller lad, he is the same BF%, he is highly likely to have the extra muscle mass to off set any lever issues*, but his neuro-muscular system is not as conditioned as his vertically challenged hombre.
(I did NOT claim a longer muscle is a stronger muscle. ever! I never will! lol)
Well, I misunderstood the longer muscles comment then.
It’s surely possible that this taller guy is weak due to lack of training, where his brain just doesn’t recruit many muscle fibers. On a second look, you are right that the taller guy weighs proportionately more than the shorter guy. But I assumed that these guys train together, and the shorter one is lifting more weight sooner in the bench and pullups, which is to be expected from the difference in length of arms.
Or it could be a combination of lack of training and disadvantaged levers.
People who don’t have disadvantages never seem to understand them. So it is a mistake for this guy to try to explain his lack of strength to his buddy. He’d be better off pushing himself to improve relative to HIMSELF.
[/quote]
Yes. The joint thing makes alot of sense, and of course people take that into account, and i totall FORGOT about that factor… very important. And right.
We have come to a point of understanding on the fact side, so let me just tangent a little - i think the taller guy is making EXCUSES.
For 1, i dont think he should know any different about lever lengths - its that his mate is stronger and he wants to find an excuse, any excuse to redeem his ego!
You are right, levers DO have a part to play, and he IS on the bottom of the strength performance pile! But i think IF his strength was upto the same level as his friends in every aspect that dictates contractile strength from nerve impulse to PCr stores, then i think he would have a marginal lack of strength, i do not know how to work such a thing out but i imagine if the general load lifted was 100kgs (a low average load for most in the “Big 3”) then the discrepancy couldnt be more than 5-10kgs… a total blatant guess of course!! But i am willing to make things up to make a point!! lolololol!
The point to all this BS is, i think he is making excuses - marginally valid excuss, but excuses none the less. He should shut the fuck up and get more sleep, eat more, use AAS, train an extra day, take an extra day off, change his routine… whatever it takes!! THAT pisses me off.
I am “one of those” who had fuck all, was given no head start in any aspect in life, and managed to achieve… less than nothing!! hhahaha! I just dont like excuses. Shut up and lift man…
As My man Gerdy says;
Eat Big,Lift heavy stuff and get some rest=Grow!
Joe
ps. thankyou for a great debate, intelligent and didnt get nasty. I learnt some stuff too!
[quote]Growing_Boy wrote:
I don’t make excuses I know its a weakness so I work on it brutally. I’m just tired shorter guys being like, “Wow, I’m a midget and i’m way stronger than you, you must be really weak!” I’ll out pull any sum bitch so that keeps me sane. [/quote]
Thats the fuckin attitude… no excuses, no “reasons” just do it innit man.
Thats gonna be my “about you”! hold on… lol
Joe
Im 6’7, do you see me whining like a little bitch about levers and physical disadvantages? Naw, I just go to the gym, do my thing, and strive to get stronger. The only expectations I set to achieve are my own. Playing the comparision game is a waste of thought and time.
Work = force x distance. Generally speaking, the longer your levers, the more distance you have to travel for full ROM. Generally speaking, a tall guy has to work more to get through a single rep.
Although it’s true, that shouldn’t be an excuse.
I’d like to think those excuses are reserved for the guy one of us knows, and not actually “one of us”
Joe
I am tired of tall guys always complaing about why they are weak
I am short and know what my disadvantages are. Sure loading a atlas stone on to a 60" platform is a lot harder for me than someone who is 6’5 but certain things are easier.
I’ve seen a video of someone who is 6’7 pressing a 400lb log over head. If he always complained about his long arms I doubt he would ever have accomplished that.
Work on your weaknesses and make them strengths.
excuses are just that… excuses.
Im one of those short strong guys…after reading some of this, i feel like i dont even need to workout any more to beat you tall guys… ahhh, the advantages of being short… maybe i’ll drink some beer while you tall guys workout as i have such a big advantage :).
I’d be willing to bet the 10 strongest people in the world are all over 6 feet tall. That, in my mind, would be pretty good evidence that the extra muscle on a tall person’s frame more than offsets the extra leverage they have to overcome.
[quote]Joe Joseph wrote:
Yes. The joint thing makes alot of sense, and of course people take that into account, and i totall FORGOT about that factor… very important. And right.
We have come to a point of understanding on the fact side, so let me just tangent a little - i think the taller guy is making EXCUSES.
For 1, i dont think he should know any different about lever lengths - its that his mate is stronger and he wants to find an excuse, any excuse to redeem his ego!
You are right, levers DO have a part to play, and he IS on the bottom of the strength performance pile! But i think IF his strength was upto the same level as his friends in every aspect that dictates contractile strength from nerve impulse to PCr stores, then i think he would have a marginal lack of strength, i do not know how to work such a thing out but i imagine if the general load lifted was 100kgs (a low average load for most in the “Big 3”) then the discrepancy couldnt be more than 5-10kgs… a total blatant guess of course!! But i am willing to make things up to make a point!! lolololol!
The point to all this BS is, i think he is making excuses - marginally valid excuss, but excuses none the less. He should shut the fuck up and get more sleep, eat more, use AAS, train an extra day, take an extra day off, change his routine… whatever it takes!! THAT pisses me off.
I am “one of those” who had fuck all, was given no head start in any aspect in life, and managed to achieve… less than nothing!! hhahaha! I just dont like excuses. Shut up and lift man…
As My man Gerdy says;
Eat Big,Lift heavy stuff and get some rest=Grow!
Joe
ps. thankyou for a great debate, intelligent and didnt get nasty. I learnt some stuff too![/quote]
Joe, I gotta say. I love your enthusiasm. You make me laugh.
So this tall guy, well, he MAY have some disadvantages in leverage for certain lifts, but he’s making excuses because he shouldn’t even know about that. That’s funny.
So he should train more than everyone else, rest more, eat more, and take more steroids…wait, you said he should train an extra day AND take an extra day off! Does he get 9 days in his week?
But yeah, I don’t like excuses either. Who does?
[quote]mbm693 wrote:
I’d be willing to bet the 10 strongest people in the world are all over 6 feet tall. That, in my mind, would be pretty good evidence that the extra muscle on a tall person’s frame more than offsets the extra leverage they have to overcome. [/quote]
Pretty much…