He Hates Europe for It's Freedoms

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Strawman all along, and a pretty clueless one, too.

So yeah he was rich, so what?
Loved? By his parents?

He has million upon millions of fans today. A youtube video of some guy would be meaningless today, but he is BIN LADEN, the one “most dangerous man on earth”, the crazy super terrorist/ beloved rebel who fights for god and justice.
The fact that he was rich once only helps to popularize the myth that he rejects wealth for a higher purpose.

Tell me, did you and our friends know that guy back in 2000? Why did your president didn’t know what the taliban were, if Bin Laden was that well known pre 9/11?
[/quote]

Yes. It was pretty common knowledge to people that pay attention that Bin Laden and AQ existed and blew up the USS Cole and 2 embassies.

The Taliban was even more infamous.

I cannot believe you didn’t know this stuff.

22

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sorry but you are dead wrong. Bin Laden was well known and loved before 9/11. He is from a famous and rich family.[/quote]

I, for one, never heard of him before 9/11. And my roommate at the time always insisted on absolute silence when the news talked about the Talibans or Afghan insurgents. Their craze always fascinated him and he kept repeating to closely watch for the can of worms to pop.

And no, he couldn’t identify Ben Laden either. He heard of some filthy rich Saudi who had joined combat in the 80s, but that’s about it.

No. He is from a rich family. It doesn’t necessarily make them famous. Quit applying your bling standards to the world.

23

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Sorry but you are dead wrong. Bin Laden was well known and loved before 9/11. He is from a famous and rich family.

I, for one, never heard of him before 9/11. And my roommate at the time always insisted on absolute silence when the news talked about the Talibans or Afghan insurgents. Their craze always fascinated him and he kept repeating to closely watch for the can of worms to pop.

And no, he couldn’t identify Ben Laden either. He heard of some filthy rich Saudi who had joined combat in the 80s, but that’s about it.
[/quote]

Then you guys are dumbasses. Of course you could be lying too. I knew who we was. He was well known to people that paid attention. Clinton shot cruise missles at him during Monicagate. This was heavily reported. Anyone that didn’t know him after that is an idiot.

[quote]

He is from a famous and rich family.

No. He is from a rich family. It doesn’t necessarily make them famous. Quit applying your bling standards to the world.[/quote]

Piss off idiot. You are lying.

24

[quote]pat wrote:
Americans and many westerners may not have known about Bin Laden, but the muslim world damn sure knew who he was. He became a “hero” in the Afgan war.[/quote]

Rubbish! I am from the Muslim world and I dare you to find even 1 in a 100 Muslims who knew “about Bin Laden” before 9/11.

25

A TN muslim, who’s even depicted occasionaly here as an “AQ cell member”, didn’t know him, in contrast to the Bushhuggers, who, of course are better experts then their president was. (“Anyone that didn’t know him after that is an idiot.” hm, telling)

Their arguments: you must be lying, and libel, of course.

I rest my case.

26

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
Americans and many westerners may not have known about Bin Laden, but the muslim world damn sure knew who he was. He became a “hero” in the Afgan war.

Rubbish! I am from the Muslim world and I dare you to find even 1 in a 100 Muslims who knew “about Bin Laden” before 9/11.[/quote]

You are lying your ass off.

Anyone that never heard of him before August, 1998 heard about him when Clinton shot cruise missiles into Afghanistan in an attempt to kill him. There is no disputing this.

You are a liar. Nothing more needs to be said.

27

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
A TN muslim, who’s even depicted occasionaly here as an “AQ cell member”, didn’t know him, in contrast to the Bushhuggers, who, of course are better experts then their president was. (“Anyone that didn’t know him after that is an idiot.” hm, telling)

Their arguments: you must be lying, and libel, of course.

I rest my case.[/quote]

LMAO - you have no case to rest. Ignorance and stupidity is not a case. It is a condition.

If I am not mistaken, the 2000 presidential election was full of talk about what to do about UBL, and terrorism. Granted, it did not become part of a daily dialogue until 9/12/2001, but to say UBL was unknown is just bullshit.

Why am I not surprised that said bullshit is once again coming from your direction?

28

http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/0543,50thvest,69291,31.html

[i]
August 25, 1998

He became a potentially hostile blip on the U.S. intelligence radar screen as early as 1991, when he arrived in Sudan. He said he had come to build roads, but according to a former Sudanese intelligence agent who spoke on the condition of anonymity, he also set up pan-Islamist camps where recruits from countries like Bosnia, Chechnya, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, and Somalia were given military training.

His blip intensified in the early 1990s, when his name came up in the international manhunt for Mir Aimal Kansi, the Pakistani who shot up the CIA’s Langley, Virginia, headquarters. It grew stronger still in 1996, during the probe of the Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia that killed 19 U.S. servicemen. He would call the perpetrators of that act “heroes.”

Though both CNN and ABC have interviewed him in the past 17 months, it’s only in the wake of the August 7 East African embassy bombings that the name Osama Bin Ladin has become widely known to Americans. In the worldwide Muslim community, however, Bin Ladin has been a controversial figure for several years. [/i]

And of course he became even more famous after Clinton took a shot at him.

29

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/0543,50thvest,69291,31.html

[i]
August 25, 1998

He became a potentially hostile blip on the U.S. intelligence radar screen as early as 1991, when he arrived in Sudan. He said he had come to build roads, but according to a former Sudanese intelligence agent who spoke on the condition of anonymity, he also set up pan-Islamist camps where recruits from countries like Bosnia, Chechnya, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, and Somalia were given military training.

His blip intensified in the early 1990s, when his name came up in the international manhunt for Mir Aimal Kansi, the Pakistani who shot up the CIA’s Langley, Virginia, headquarters. It grew stronger still in 1996, during the probe of the Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia that killed 19 U.S. servicemen. He would call the perpetrators of that act “heroes.”

Though both CNN and ABC have interviewed him in the past 17 months, it’s only in the wake of the August 7 East African embassy bombings that the name Osama Bin Ladin has become widely known to Americans. In the worldwide Muslim community, however, Bin Ladin has been a controversial figure for several years. [/i]

And of course he became even more famous after Clinton took a shot at him.[/quote]

No. No. No. Lixy said her and her room mate had never heard of him. Stop using propaganda to further your baseless position.

30

http://www.cnn.com/US/9808/20/us.strikes.02/

[i]

Clinton: ‘Our target was terror’
August 21, 1998

Web posted at: 5:10 a.m. EDT (0910 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) – American cruise missiles pounded sites in Afghanistan and Sudan Thursday in retaliation for the deadly bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania on August 7.

“Let our actions today send this message loud and clear – there are no expendable American targets,” U.S. President Clinton said in a televised address to the American people Thursday evening. “There will be no sanctuary for terrorists. We will defend our people, our interests and our values.”

U.S. officials say the six sites attacked in Afghanistan were part of a network of terrorist compounds near the Pakistani border that housed supporters of millionaire Osama bin Laden.

[/i]

Schwarz, I will forgive your ignorance, perhaps you were young at the time and being German this probably wasn’t as well covered but lixy is lying his ass off.

Remember this next time you read something he posts. He has been proven a liar over and over again on these boards.

OBL was well known.

31

[quote]kroby wrote:
Practice of the religion of Islam and freedom simply do not mix.
[/quote]

Say a very small minority of Muslims…

32

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Then you guys are dumbasses. [/quote]

Well, we were pretty childish at the time. We found shaving cream and fire extinguishers on strangers extremely amusing.

As could you.

Talk about a self-centered prick!

How does what you know, make Ben Laden “well known and loved before 9/11”? How did you make that leap?

Ok. That, I am willing to buy.

Consider that I was among the privileged few educated Muslims, net-access and interest in world issues as part of a college environment, and still had no idea who Osama was. I knew about Abassi Madani by the age of 11, Mustafa Mashour was pretty famous (pun intended), and was familiar with the work of the Janjalanis, but Ben Laden I never heard of. And that’s from someone who spent all of his undergrad elective courses taking Islamic civilization and history courses, and spending his monthly allowance on Le Monde Diplomatique ever since I hit puberty.

Now, go figure out the proportion of Muslims who, pre-9/11, could read, write, had access to the news or gave a fsck about what was going on beyond their village’s border.

Your analysis could hardly be more biased, deluded and self-centered.

Cornered, ey?

33

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Sorry but you are dead wrong. Bin Laden was well known and loved before 9/11. He is from a famous and rich family.

I, for one, never heard of him before 9/11. And my roommate at the time always insisted on absolute silence when the news talked about the Talibans or Afghan insurgents. Their craze always fascinated him and he kept repeating to closely watch for the can of worms to pop.

And no, he couldn’t identify Ben Laden either. He heard of some filthy rich Saudi who had joined combat in the 80s, but that’s about it.

He is from a famous and rich family.

No. He is from a rich family. It doesn’t necessarily make them famous. Quit applying your bling standards to the world.[/quote]

probably cause you couldn’t see the tv through your bong smoke.

By 1988, bin Laden had split from Maktab al-Khidamat; while Azzam acted as support for Afghan fighters, Laden wanted a more military role. One of the main leading points to the split and the creation of al-Qaeda was the insistence of Azzam that Arab fighters be integrated among the Afghan fighting groups instead of forming their separate fighting force.[40] Bin Laden returned to Saudi Arabia in 1990 as a hero of jihad, who along with his Arab legion, “had brought down the mighty superpower” of the Soviet Union.[41] However, during this time Iraq invaded Kuwait and Laden met the Sultan, and told him not to depend on non-Muslim troops and offered to help defend Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden was rebuffed and publicly denounced Saudi Arabia’s dependence on US military. Bin Laden’s criticism of the Saudi monarchy led the government to attempt to silence him.

Bin Laden moved to Sudan in 1992 and established a new base for mujahideen operations in Khartoum. Due to bin Laden’s continuous verbal assault on Saudi King Fahd, the King on 5 March 1994 sent an emissary to Sudan demanding bin Laden’s passport. His family was persuaded to cut off his monthly stipend equivalent of $7 million a year.[42] By now bin Laden was strongly associated with Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ), which made up the core of al-Qaeda. In 1995 the EIJ attempted to assassinate Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. The attempt failed and the EIJ was expelled from Sudan.

In May 1996, under increasing pressure from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the United States on Sudan, bin Laden returned to Afghanistan and forged a close relationship Mullah Mohammed Omar.[43] In Afghanistan, bin Laden and al-Qaeda raised money from “donors from the days of the Soviet jihad”, and from Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI).[44]

lets see hero of jihad, verbally chastising countries and kings to the point where they try to silence him. yeah I am sure nobody had heard of him.

34

[quote]Cpl. Mongo wrote:
probably cause you couldn’t see the tv through your bong smoke. [/quote]

What’s a bong?

Tyrants and other dictatorial kings trying to silence people is a daily occurance and business as usual. That’s what they do. And calling him a “hero of jihad” is quite silly, given that the concept only gained popularity after the invasion of Iraq.

Also, I didn’t argue that “nobody had heard of him”. Rather, I doubted the proportion of people who could recognize the name made it to the percents pre-9/11. That is, not even one in a hundred could have told you who he was. The situation has been reversed after 9/11, where you’d be hard pressed to find somebody who doesn’t recognize the name Osama Ben Laden.

35

And that’s from someone who spent all of his undergrad elective courses taking Islamic civilization and history courses, and spending his monthly allowance on Le Monde Diplomatique ever since I hit puberty.

Le Monde diplomatique (nicknamed “Le Diplo” by its French readers) is a monthly publication offering analysis and opinion on politics, culture, and current affairs. Its articles are long, thoughtful, scholarly, and opinionated.

Since the 1970s, its editorial line has become decidedly altermondialist and left-wing. Throughout the Cold War, it had a neutralist viewpoint, often critical of US foreign policy.

wow big surprise your opinions are the way they are. You must have been a real joy as a teenager huh, the rest of the Swiss teens skiing and enjoying there very liberal gun laws, and there’s lil ol lix arguing foreign policy yeah good times.

36

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Then you guys are dumbasses.

Well, we were pretty childish at the time. We found shaving cream and fire extinguishers on strangers extremely amusing.

Of course you could be lying too.

As could you.

I knew who we was.

Talk about a self-centered prick!

How does what you know, make Ben Laden “well known and loved before 9/11”? How did you make that leap?

He was well known to people that paid attention.

Ok. That, I am willing to buy.

Consider that I was among the privileged few educated Muslims, net-access and interest in world issues as part of a college environment, and still had no idea who Osama was. I knew about Abassi Madani by the age of 11, Mustafa Mashour was pretty famous (pun intended), and was familiar with the work of the Janjalanis, but Ben Laden I never heard of. And that’s from someone who spent all of his undergrad elective courses taking Islamic civilization and history courses, and spending his monthly allowance on Le Monde Diplomatique ever since I hit puberty.

Now, go figure out the proportion of Muslims who, pre-9/11, could read, write, had access to the news or gave a fsck about what was going on beyond their village’s border.

Clinton shot cruise missles at him during Monicagate. This was heavily reported. Anyone that didn’t know him after that is an idiot.

Your analysis could hardly be more biased, deluded and self-centered.

Piss off idiot. You are lying.

Cornered, ey?[/quote]

You certainly are. I have posted multiple stories from the late 90s indicated he was well known in America and in the Muslim world for even longer.

You have been caught in yet another lie.

37

[quote]Cpl. Mongo wrote:
And that’s from someone who spent all of his undergrad elective courses taking Islamic civilization and history courses, and spending his monthly allowance on Le Monde Diplomatique ever since I hit puberty.

Le Monde diplomatique (nicknamed “Le Diplo” by its French readers) is a monthly publication offering analysis and opinion on politics, culture, and current affairs. Its articles are long, thoughtful, scholarly, and opinionated.

Since the 1970s, its editorial line has become decidedly altermondialist and left-wing. Throughout the Cold War, it had a neutralist viewpoint, often critical of US foreign policy.

wow big surprise your opinions are the way they are. You must have been a real joy as a teenager huh, the rest of the Swiss teens skiing and enjoying there very liberal gun laws, and there’s lil ol lix arguing foreign policy yeah good times.[/quote]

Lixy is a radical Moroccan going to school in Sweden. That should help explain more.

38

Your partly wrong schwarz, he was well known since the late 90’s. What did happen though was that after 9/11 Bin Laden and Al Qaida were overrated like hell, that their significance was totally blown out of proportion. Given 20 fanatics any millionaire on earth could have organized 9/11. Aside from the Taliban camel jockeys they never had any connections to anyone of significance. Connections to Saddam? My ass.

39

You guys really don’t listen.
I’ll slow down a bit.

He WAS a top terrorist. Never said he wasn’t, among dozens, if not hundreds of others.

Did experts know him? Probably a lot of them.

Did the average-educated guy, like Bush, know him? No chance.

Do they know him now? You bet.

Same with the bulk of the muslim countries: Did their youth buy watches with his mug, listen to his videos or discuss his heroic exploits in pre 9/11? Course not.

Do they now?

The point remains the same, you radicalized a lot of people and gave them a hero figure.
While the secular one was hiding in a hole and was executed triumphantly, the real asshole mocks you from a cave, sitting among donkey shit making some guys here even tremble in fear.
Mission accomplished!

40

[quote]Ken Kaniff wrote:
Your partly wrong schwarz, he was well known since the late 90’s. What did happen though was that after 9/11 Bin Laden and Al Qaida were overrated like hell, that their significance was totally blown out of proportion. Given 20 fanatics any millionaire on earth could have organized 9/11. Aside from the Taliban camel jockeys they never had any connections to anyone of significance. Connections to Saddam? My ass.[/quote]

I don’t dispute that he was known among experts. Like you I merely want to point out that his deeds were “blown out of proportion”.
Probably because it fitted into the schemed of the Bush administration so well:
“A supervillain, nearly holding WMDs in his hands, hating our freedoms and only I can save you with the Lord’s help, dear fellow americans, but it shall cost us…blablbala”

You know the rest, just switch on the TV.