Eric,
thanks for the reply,
I’ve never been an athlete- the nearest was doing the shot-put for a few months at school. However I first noticed the lack of supination at about age 18-19yrs (I’m 45 now)when it was affecting my Aikido / Jujitsu sessions. I practised 2-3hrs, 2-3 days per week from age 13 to about 20, then taught twice a week for about ten years.
I think the many instances of forced supination (a move call Kote-gaeshi)may well be a contributing factor. I also broke a small bone in my wrist during practice at age 16 (this was caused by being hit with a wooden cosh!).
Any suggestions to increase flexibility? The area seems almost solid at the end of it’s ROM. This does of course limit exercise selection, e.g I can’t do BB curls with a straight bar, or pull ups (palms facing me)wrist curls are impossible in the usual style (behind back is do-able).
Thanks again, rest assured all suggestion will be tried out!
Dax
[quote]Berner wrote:
A few months ago I was laying supine and someone gently took my arm through a passive range of motion a few times. I don?t remember if it was over my head or across my body. Anyway my shoulder bothered me after that and when it didn?t go away in a few weeks I went to my chiropractor for ART. I had two sessions and he did ART and some other techique I wasn?t familiar with, but the discomfort went away.[/quote]
So, just to clarify, this was gradual onset and not a traumatic injury?
A few tests for you to run:
- Empty Can Test: Try a thumbs-down lateral raise against a partner’s resistance to see if that causes pain.
- Hawkins’ Test: Do a front raise to 90-degrees, flex the elbow to 90-degrees, and maximally internally rotate the humerus.
- Speed’s Test: Do a front raise with the palm up while someone stabilizes the elbow joint and resists you. Is there pain in the anterior shoulder region?
- Lift-off test: Put your affected arm behind your back as if you’re handcuffed (palms facing away from the body so that the humerus is completely internally rotated). Have someone press against your palm as you try to press away from your body. This tests for pathology of the subscapularis, an internal rotator of the humerus.
- Cross-Chest Adduction: Simply reach as far across your chest as you can and note if there’s any pain.
Any pain at night?
[quote]Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance for your time.[/quote]
A few. Based on your symptoms, I’d say that it’s just a mild case stage II impingement where the infraspinatus is involved. I’ll be interested to hear what you find with the other test, though.
[quote]Feanor76 wrote:
Well, I’m not going to be greedy or opportunistic here, so all I’m going to ask for is a three day a week program to improve Olympic and Power lifting while also working on chin/row strength. chuckle
In all seriousness, supposing I wanted to work DL, Sq, Bench, Jerk (Press), Clean, Snatch, Chins, and Rows, how in the world should I cycle the different movements and strength development methods? Particularly considering I’m by no means “strong” so I need more volume in each particular movement (b/c of low efficiency).
Doing so many “big” movements, where should supplemental/accessory movements (core and/or weak point training) be used?
I realize answering this fully would be a series of 20 articles over two years, but how about some important considerations … perhaps taking “Designer Athletes” and monkeying a bit to get it to 3 days a week and more emphasis on overhead work?
Regards,
Mark[/quote]
Trying to ride quite a few horses with one ass, huh? Actually, you’ll find that improvements in these qualities are not mutually exclusive; they’ll complement each other nicely.
I’m going to toss out a split for you, as manipulating the acute program variables is a pretty involved process with which I individualize as much as possible. I’ll also toss in some crucial prehab measures and where to incorporate them. Warm-ups (dynamic flexibility and activation work) are excluded. Keep in mind that this is off the top of my head; if I was writing the program out, I’d probably tinker with it a bit more.
Day 1:
Snatch
DL variation
Single-leg movement
Single-Arm Horizontal Press
Rows
Lateral Flexion
External Rotation Movement
Day 2:
Jerk/Press
Chins
Mid/Lower Trap movement
Hip Abduction/Glute Activation work
Dorsiflexion
Grip work (if needed)
Trunk flexion
Day 3:
Clean
Squat variation
Single-leg
Bench
Single-arm Horizontal Pull
Trunk rotation
External Rotation Movement
[quote]andrewjones wrote:
In terms of physique and symmetry, can you add significant size to arms while keeping other body parts relatively the same size. I’ve heard you have to gain 10lbs for your arms to increase an inch. I noticed the Larry Scott pic on the physique forum and his arms look like their as big as his legs. On a side note Charles Poliquin mentioned in an audio that he recommends 12 sets for arms to grow. Whats your take on that. I’m interested in reading your comments.
Thanx for your time.
Andrew Jones[/quote]
It’s going to depend on your starting point. If your arms are really underdeveloped, chances are that you can make some pretty good size gains without changing the rest of you significantly. Those with well-balanced physiques are going to need to grow all over, though.
As for the 12 sets approach, it really depends on where the rest of your programming is. Are you committed to devoting an entire day to arms? Or, are you simply going to add those 12 sets after the 15 you’ve already done for the rest of your body? Are you on an arm-specialization program? Are those 12 sets divided over two separate days in your programming? Coach Poliquin certainly knows how to build big arms, but I’m sure that he also knows that how the twelve sets are incorporated can make or break a program.
[quote]Shadowruler wrote:
Thanks for the responses.
Do you guys squat and deadlift twice a week or once.[/quote]
Squat at least once a week, and twice about 2/3 of the time.
Deadlift for speed 2-3 times per month with a max pull every 4-6 weeks. I might use some DL variations as assistance work, though.
I’m sure it’s possible; you could probably do a maintenance routine for the rest of your body, while focusing the majority of your training energy on your arms. Now that doesn’t mean to go out and perform concentration curls or tricep pushdowns until you are blue in the face, though! Compound, multi-joint exercises like close grip bench, dips, chin-ups, etc. will thoroughly tax the arms while giving you some total body benefit as well.
As far as taking 12 sets for ones arms to grow, I think that’s a pretty broad generalization. I know some people who do NO direct arm work and their arms grow; it’s sick. As they say, find out what works for you and do it.
Stay strong
MR
[quote]andrewjones wrote:
In terms of physique and symmetry, can you add significant size to arms while keeping other body parts relatively the same size. I’ve heard you have to gain 10lbs for your arms to increase an inch. I noticed the Larry Scott pic on the physique forum and his arms look like their as big as his legs. On a side note Charles Poliquin mentioned in an audio that he recommends 12 sets for arms to grow. Whats your take on that. I’m interested in reading your comments.
Thanx for your time.
Andrew Jones[/quote]
Squat - At least once; as I get closer to a meet, usually 2x per week
Deads - Usually once a week, but I’m with Eric in that I’m doing more and more speed pulling. I will go heavier on some of the assistance type pulls, though (pulls with bands, against bands, etc.) after speed work.
Stay strong
MR
[quote]Shadowruler wrote:
Thanks for the responses.
Do you guys squat and deadlift twice a week or once.[/quote]
TedK,
First off, I would recommend you get some blood work done to figure out if there is anything screwy going on with your thyroid levels, test levels, CK levels, etc. It doesn’t SOUND as if you are too far off the right path, but something doesn’t add up if all you are saying is true.
Now, for your questions:
-
Yes, I believe in bulking up and the leaning out. I think of it as 2 steps forward and one step back. That doesn’t mean get super fat and out of shape, but just that you soften up a little bit in favor of putting on some hard earned muscle.
-
You don’t ALWAYS have to get stronger to get bigger. Most bodybuilders will benefit from a high set, low rep approach simply because they’ve done the opposite for so long. However, you can get caught up in the opposite line of thinking as well. For instance, a lot of powerlifters get REALLY thick when they use a more typical BB’ing protocol.
If you want a max strength routine, check out some of CT’s or CW’s stuff and modify the volume to get it where you can handle it.
- Are we fans of low-volume training? We’re powerlifters; of course we are! The shorter the set, the better!
Stay strong
MR
Mike; Question on your Designer Athlete program. What are your thoughts about doing a MWF and then doing the 4th day on the following Mand then start the 4 day rotation over. Being 51 and working out since I was 14 unfortunately 4 days a week is getting tougher since I do 2 days of cardio.
Also why don’t you and Eric have a seminar/workshop here in the state of Indiana?
TedK,
If you’re not increasing your strength, it’s going to be pretty damn hard to impose the overload required to force your body into new growth. And, to be very honest, you don’t have much reason to complain on that front; as far as I can tell, you haven’t done any true strength programs. I can’t tell you how many trainees I know of who make ridiculous progress once they quit screwing around with silly tempos and “feeling the burn” and just focus on getting stronger; the chips just fall into place.
Also, perhaps most importantly, you need to relax. You might find it interesting to know that I rarely encourage my clients to count calories on a regular basis; it’s just too stressful for them! You seem Type-A enough already.
Find a good place to train with some STRONG people who will rip you a new a**hole if you start complaining about this hardgainer stuff. Keep eating clean, but don’t worry so much about tracking every calorie.
I’m realize that I’m taking a bit of a different approach than Mike; hopefully, it won’t come off as overly harsh. I must say, however, that the $400-600/month on supplements made me laugh. A lot.
To answer your questions…
[quote]
- Do you believe in “bulking up” vs. Staying in reasonable condition year round?[/quote]
I’m for bulking, but not as over-the-top as many advocate. You can bulk gradually.
Correct! Call me crazy, but I’m thinking that lifting heavy stuff can only help.
You should do both; it’s why you cycle volume in your programming. I don’t know of many bodybuilders who have ever experiened supercompensation first-hand, as they’re always doing a ton of volume. You also have to look at recovery measures. Sleep and nutrition are obviously the biggest factors, but can you find other things to complement them. I discuss some low-intensity sessions in my “Cardio Confusion” article, and Christian outlined a bunch of recovery optimization strategies in a recent article.
Best of luck!
EC
[quote]jeep69 wrote:
I have a few more questions though.
when you say "flare " I assume you mean flaring the elbows out at lockout.[/quote]
Yes. Just remember that you’re lifting raw and not wearing a double denim shirt and trying to throw the bar back over your face. In other words, be subtle about it.
[quote]IF so do you think its better when doing multiple rep sets to
A- not tuck the elbows-
B- tuck the elbows a little and dont flare at top?
[/quote]
Always tuck the elbows. Just don’t flare much (if at all). Focus on spreading the bar and think about pushing yourself away from it (through the bench).
The lats are extensors and adductors of the humerus. If you pull your upper arms toward the floor and toward the body simultaneously, your lats will be kicking. Just think about making yourself as tight as possible.
No sweat.
EC
[quote]Paul0 wrote:
Myofibrillar and Saroplasmic Hypertropfy is different thing?[/quote]
Yes.
To occur different Methods and Perioditation?Why?[/quote]
-
Max Strength days - geared toward functional adaptations and maximal protein degradation through heavy training. These methods lead to sarcomere hypertrophy (increases in the size of the actual muscle proteins - e.g. actin and myosin).
-
Repetition Days - geared toward structural adaptations and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (proliferation of non-contractile elements) and promotion of glycogen storage.
Keep in mind that the two are not completely unrelated. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is an important facilitator of myofibrillar/sarcomere hypertrophy; it’s why powerlifters need to do some higher rep work.
[quote]Old Dax wrote:
Eric,
thanks for the reply,
I’ve never been an athlete- the nearest was doing the shot-put for a few months at school. However I first noticed the lack of supination at about age 18-19yrs (I’m 45 now)when it was affecting my Aikido / Jujitsu sessions. I practised 2-3hrs, 2-3 days per week from age 13 to about 20, then taught twice a week for about ten years.
I think the many instances of forced supination (a move call Kote-gaeshi)may well be a contributing factor. I also broke a small bone in my wrist during practice at age 16 (this was caused by being hit with a wooden cosh!).
Any suggestions to increase flexibility? The area seems almost solid at the end of it’s ROM. This does of course limit exercise selection, e.g I can’t do BB curls with a straight bar, or pull ups (palms facing me)wrist curls are impossible in the usual style (behind back is do-able).
Thanks again, rest assured all suggestion will be tried out!
Dax[/quote]
Get some ART and just find someone to do some myofascial release on the forearms for you. In terms of stretching, go into pronation to stretch the supinators; PNF yourself with the opposite hand and you should see faster results.
Sure thing; the rotating 4 day split should work out just fine. I think it’s great you are in tune with your body and have a good idea of what you can recover from.
As far as EC and I doing a seminar, that would be great…I’m sure we’ll try to do some stuff together in the future, so be on the lookout!
Stay strong
MR
[quote]Bearhawk wrote:
Mike; Question on your Designer Athlete program. What are your thoughts about doing a MWF and then doing the 4th day on the following Mand then start the 4 day rotation over. Being 51 and working out since I was 14 unfortunately 4 days a week is getting tougher since I do 2 days of cardio.
Also why don’t you and Eric have a seminar/workshop here in the state of Indiana? [/quote]
I had reconstructive shoulder surgery about 8 years ago. Knowing you cannot give an assessment over the internet about specifics, are there any exercises one should absolutely stay away from after having this type of surgery.
[quote]Bearhawk wrote:
Also why don’t you and Eric have a seminar/workshop here in the state of Indiana? [/quote]
Since Pittsburgh is about 1/2 way between Indiana and Connecticut, I recommend having the seminar here!
Not that I’m biased or anything.
Regards,
Mark
[quote]Eric Cressey wrote:
Berner wrote:
A few months ago I was laying supine and someone gently took my arm through a passive range of motion a few times. I don?t remember if it was over my head or across my body. Anyway my shoulder bothered me after that and when it didn?t go away in a few weeks I went to my chiropractor for ART. I had two sessions and he did ART and some other techique I wasn?t familiar with, but the discomfort went away.
So, just to clarify, this was gradual onset and not a traumatic injury?
Several months down the line and I?m just getting back to being active (for other reasons) and I realize that the shoulder is still not right. It bothers me if I try vertical pressing movements. Also if I take my arm straight up in the air and then lower it to my side it bothers me when it gets to about 90 degrees i.e. parallel to the floor with the discomfort being on the posteromedial side of the proximal humerous.
A few tests for you to run:
- Empty Can Test: Try a thumbs-down lateral raise against a partner’s resistance to see if that causes pain.
- Hawkins’ Test: Do a front raise to 90-degrees, flex the elbow to 90-degrees, and maximally internally rotate the humerus.
- Speed’s Test: Do a front raise with the palm up while someone stabilizes the elbow joint and resists you. Is there pain in the anterior shoulder region?
- Lift-off test: Put your affected arm behind your back as if you’re handcuffed (palms facing away from the body so that the humerus is completely internally rotated). Have someone press against your palm as you try to press away from your body. This tests for pathology of the subscapularis, an internal rotator of the humerus.
- Cross-Chest Adduction: Simply reach as far across your chest as you can and note if there’s any pain.
Any pain at night?
Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance for your time.
A few. Based on your symptoms, I’d say that it’s just a mild case stage II impingement where the infraspinatus is involved. I’ll be interested to hear what you find with the other test, though.
[/quote]
Hi Eric,
Sorry for the confusion. The problem started abruptly after the person took my arm through the passive range of motion. It hurt momentarily when she twice took it through a certain point in the range and…I think it was the next day that it really started bothering me +/- continuously.
-
Empty can test: minimal discomfort in infraspinatous region.
-
Hawkins test: positive with mild-moderate discomfort when the humerous gets about 60 degrees below horizontal (30 degrees from being straight down).
-
speeds test: no pain.
-
Lift off test: none during the test but helper pushed pretty hard and it really throbbed and hurt a lot afterwards for a few minutes in the same place (infraspinatous region).
-
Cross chest adduction: no pain.
No pain at night or at all really during normal life. The only discomfort is when doing exercises as mentioned previously.
Thoughts on what is going on?
Rehab recommendations?
Exercises to avoid: vertical pressing. horizontal pressing e.g flat bench? Anything else?
ART appointment scheduled for Monday.
Thanks again.
My schedule for the next few months is pretty hectic, but it looks like I will be getting out on the seminar tour a bit later this summer. The only one that’s set in stone as of right now is an ISSN Seminar in Delaware on August 13, though:
Oh, and if anyone is in the Eastern CT area, you’re more than welcome to sit in on my master’s thesis defense in May. Throw peanuts, heckle, whatever.
a few questions about shoulder injury prevention…
what rotator cuff exercise do you find provides the most bang for buck?
would a muscle snatch with locked elbows through entire ROM be beneficial?
is it possible to avoid rotator cuff “isolation” exercises if one’s program is designed with proper quality, quantity, and balance of compound movements?
does the snatch grip deadlift involve external rotation?
it seems to me that internal rotation is trained adequately from particular compound movements, so external rotation should be likewise. am i right?
[quote]Berner wrote:
Thoughts on what is going on?
Rehab recommendations?
Exercises to avoid: vertical pressing. horizontal pressing e.g flat bench? Anything else?
ART appointment scheduled for Monday.
Thanks again.
[/quote]
I gave my intial impression above, but given that it’s somewhat of a traumatic injury, it could very well just be a strain. Or, I could be completely off and it could be referred pain from somewhere else. For now, avoid anything that irritates it; I’d say that overhead work - especially vertical pulling - would be a big no-no. Drop me an email when you get your diagnosis and I’ll see what I can do to point you in the right direction as far as rehab is concerned.
Good luck!
EC