That one shot, by the way, is still why I say he had the most power. It didn’t look like it, but he generated more force than anyone ever could, before or after.
Gerald McClellan hands down.
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
I’m going to disagree with everything posted here and say I don’t think Marciano has a shot at being best PFP. He shouldn’t even be in the top ten.
He was a very good fighter in an era of sloppiness. He also quit when he needed to quit. That is all.[/quote]
Yeah, but the best part about quitting when you needed to is that every skeptic who comes along waxing intellectual about your lack of skills lacks any form of evidence to prove that he wasn’t top ten.
Anderson Silva, Nogueira Minotauro, Wanderlei Silva, Vitor Belfort
Brazil Rocks seus cuzão
MMA - Fedor / Coutoure Heavyweight
- Ortiz / Anderson Silva Lighter WEights
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
I agree with this
A ring for the big blue is good every other year.
While I think pound for pound Marciano is the better one, (We’re talking about thirty-forty pounds here!) I agree with this link.
It’s interesting how Tyson is such a controversial champion.
[/quote]
Define “Champion”…
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
duffyj2 wrote:
I’m going to disagree with everything posted here and say I don’t think Marciano has a shot at being best PFP. He shouldn’t even be in the top ten.
He was a very good fighter in an era of sloppiness. He also quit when he needed to quit. That is all.
That’s not true.
Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis (even old)… these guys are some of the best in the history of the sport. Top 10’s? No. But top 50? Yes. And that’s pretty damn good.
As for sloppiness- have you watched a HW fight lately? They’re all sloppy. Always have been. Here’s what Marciano’s fight against Walcott looked like, including that thunderous right that would have floored any fighter from any time period.
[/quote]
As you said. They were all past their best.
Jersey Joe was 38 years old, Archie Moore was 42, Ezzard Charles just never brought his skill as a light-heavy into the heavyweight division (and Marciano still said he was his toughest opponent).
Joe Louis was an outstanding boxer in his prime. Marciano beat up his shadow. So what?
Maybe he’s in the top 50… I never said he wasn’t. And I don’t care. But there ain’t no way he was the greatest.
Heavyweight fights at the moment are about as skillful, dignified and precise as two fat girls greased-oil wrestling. But no HW fighter of our time is in my top ten of all time.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
duffyj2 wrote:
I’m going to disagree with everything posted here and say I don’t think Marciano has a shot at being best PFP. He shouldn’t even be in the top ten.
He was a very good fighter in an era of sloppiness. He also quit when he needed to quit. That is all.
Yeah, but the best part about quitting when you needed to is that every skeptic who comes along waxing intellectual about your lack of skills lacks any form of evidence to prove that he wasn’t top ten.[/quote]
Since when do I need any form of evidence to say anything? I saw Marciano fight, I thought he was ok. End of story.
Where do I start “waxing intellectual”? A beautiful expression by all means but… entirely inapplicable. This is waxing intellectual Rock Against Iron: Marciano vs. Tyson!. “Evidence” like reach, weight, metal fortitude, awkward style, good with combinations… all bullshit. Fighters are not Top Trumps. No one knows the outcome of a fight until after the fight.
The most any of us can do is give our opinion. And that is what I did.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
duffyj2 wrote:
I’m going to disagree with everything posted here and say I don’t think Marciano has a shot at being best PFP. He shouldn’t even be in the top ten.
He was a very good fighter in an era of sloppiness. He also quit when he needed to quit. That is all.
That’s not true.
Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Jersey Joe Walcott, Joe Louis (even old)… these guys are some of the best in the history of the sport. Top 10’s? No. But top 50? Yes. And that’s pretty damn good.
As for sloppiness- have you watched a HW fight lately? They’re all sloppy. Always have been. Here’s what Marciano’s fight against Walcott looked like, including that thunderous right that would have floored any fighter from any time period.
That awkwardness is just the way some guys fight. Is he really that much different than Sultan Ibragimov?
Point is, when you’ve got an iron chin and heavy, looping punches, sometimes you don’t have to bounce and jive- you can walk right in and take two to give one. Ask Cotto about that.
[/quote]
Another thing to consider about Marciano is that to the untrained eye it looks like he misses a lot of punches (they get blocked), but in reality he loved to purposely hit his opponents in the arms.
My instructor’s father used to train with one of Marciano’s sparring partners and was told how effectively Marciano utilized this strategy. If you hit a person in the arms hard enough, enough times (especially if you know where to aim) sooner or later their arms are going to drop, opening them up for the KO blow to the head.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Another thing to consider about Marciano is that to the untrained eye it looks like he misses a lot of punches (they get blocked), but in reality he loved to purposely hit his opponents in the arms.
My instructor’s father used to train with one of Marciano’s sparring partners and was told how effectively Marciano utilized this strategy. If you hit a person in the arms hard enough, enough times (especially if you know where to aim) sooner or later their arms are going to drop, opening them up for the KO blow to the head.[/quote]
This is a very good point. Hitting someone in the arms when mixing up body shots is a very effective way to wear down an opponent. Hitting their shoulders, too. It may not technically score points, but if you do it well, it can have a profound effect on your opponent.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Xeneize wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
I agree with this
A ring for the big blue is good every other year.
Nice find.
I gotta agree with RJ that a Marciano vs. prime Tyson would be a heck of a matchup. But I think Tyson’s speed and athleticism would be the difference. There’s no way the Rock would be able to cope with that. It would be a repeat of Michael Spinks, but it would probably go a few more rounds.
Come to think of it, Marciano vs. Holyfield at cruiserweight would really be a terrific matchup.
You know, it really drives me nuts that people give Tyson so much credit.
I said it before- he’s got a chance against anyone because of his natural ability. But when he fought world-class fighters, I’ve never seen someone perform worse. I mean fuck guys, Buster Douglas? Holyfield twice, and Lennox Lewis showed him up for the mental fraud he was.
Natural ability is one thing, but in boxing it’s nothing without mental fortitude. The fact that anyone thinks that Mike Tyson would win against Muhammud Ali, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Joe Frazier, or any of the other legends seriously amazes me.
Would they be fun fights to watch? Absolutely would. But Ali would put him down just like Lennox did, probably easier because he was so much quicker than him. The rest of them KO him easily by the sixth, especially Marciano. Tyson couldn’t handle pressure, and couldn’t handle someone who wasn’t scared of him. And Rock feared no one.
Joe Louis… forget it. He’s probably #3 or 4 on my list of all time greats. He’d murder Tyson. It probably wouldn’t even be fair.[/quote]
I don’t think anyone (at least not me) is saying Tyson is in serious discussion for greatest of all time. His career as a whole and his legacy don’t merit that.
But I was thinking of Tyson at his peak, which was at his physically and mentally best, with Cus D’Mato, Jimmy Jacobs and Kevin Rooney behind him, in a fantasy matchup with Marciano. Tyson, at his best, would just be too athletic, quick and powerful for the Rock. Marciano was the best of his era, and he fought everyone there was at the time. But he wouldn’t even be a heavyweight in the last 30 years. The difference in size and power is prohibitive. Foreman, Ali, Holmes, Lewis would have killed him.
You’re right about Louis … he would beat the crap out of Tyson. Unless Tyson caught him in the first couple of rounds, ala Schmeling. Then it could have been a short, easy night for Iron Mike. But the smart money would be on Louis, a technically sound, calm fighter with devastating power.
You know, Marciano talked about coming out of retirement to fight Sonny Liston. He died in that plane crash while he was pondering that decision. Could he have beaten Liston? Sure, maybe. But he may have ended up tarnishing his legacy forever, too.
I can’t believe no one’s mentioned possibly the best boxer of all time who is Joe Calzaghe. he has over 30 knockouts to his name and in a career spanning 15 years he is undefeated. he’s the undisputed super middleweight champion with nearly twenty successful title defenses and recently moved up a weight class and beat the light heavyweight champion bernard hopkins. what other fighter has surpassed that record in his career? not Tyson for sure.
[quote]Another thing to consider about Marciano is that to the untrained eye it looks like he misses a lot of punches (they get blocked), but in reality he loved to purposely hit his opponents in the arms.
My instructor’s father used to train with one of Marciano’s sparring partners and was told how effectively Marciano utilized this strategy. If you hit a person in the arms hard enough, enough times (especially if you know where to aim) sooner or later their arms are going to drop, opening them up for the KO blow to the head.[/quote]
This is actually one of the points I would hold against Marciano. He didn’t care whether his punches got blocked or not because if he was hitting skin he was wearing down his opponent. Did it work against the overage or undertalented guys he fought? Yes. Is it the ideal way to fight? Absolutely not.
A shot that lands on the body fatigues you much more than one that lands on the arm. If you land a shot on an opponent’s arm you are open to a counter. You also increase the channce of breaking your fist or wrist.
I can’t think of a single boxer worth his salt other than Marciano who used the “If I hit somethin’, it’s a good punch” methodology. And that suggests to me that it’s best left to its place in the annals of history.
[quote]TheG wrote:
I can’t believe no one’s mentioned possibly the best boxer of all time who is Joe Calzaghe. he has over 30 knockouts to his name and in a career spanning 15 years he is undefeated. he’s the undisputed super middleweight champion with nearly twenty successful title defenses and recently moved up a weight class and beat the light heavyweight champion bernard hopkins. what other fighter has surpassed that record in his career? not Tyson for sure. [/quote]
I give no respect to slappers who beat up old men.
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
TheG wrote:
I can’t believe no one’s mentioned possibly the best boxer of all time who is Joe Calzaghe. he has over 30 knockouts to his name and in a career spanning 15 years he is undefeated. he’s the undisputed super middleweight champion with nearly twenty successful title defenses and recently moved up a weight class and beat the light heavyweight champion bernard hopkins. what other fighter has surpassed that record in his career? not Tyson for sure.
I give no respect to slappers who beat up old men.[/quote]
hopkins may have been older than him but what about every other fighter he’s beaten and if IF he beats roy jones jr then you really can’t make that statement.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Another thing to consider about Marciano is that to the untrained eye it looks like he misses a lot of punches (they get blocked), but in reality he loved to purposely hit his opponents in the arms.
My instructor’s father used to train with one of Marciano’s sparring partners and was told how effectively Marciano utilized this strategy. If you hit a person in the arms hard enough, enough times (especially if you know where to aim) sooner or later their arms are going to drop, opening them up for the KO blow to the head.[/quote]
I’m glad you said that, because I forgot about it.
On one or two occasions, he actually broke bones in the forearms of his opponents by pounding on them.
[quote]TheG wrote:
duffyj2 wrote:
TheG wrote:
I can’t believe no one’s mentioned possibly the best boxer of all time who is Joe Calzaghe. he has over 30 knockouts to his name and in a career spanning 15 years he is undefeated. he’s the undisputed super middleweight champion with nearly twenty successful title defenses and recently moved up a weight class and beat the light heavyweight champion bernard hopkins. what other fighter has surpassed that record in his career? not Tyson for sure.
I give no respect to slappers who beat up old men.
hopkins may have been older than him but what about every other fighter he’s beaten and if IF he beats roy jones jr then you really can’t make that statement. [/quote]
Like who? Mikkel Kessler? Jeff Lacy? And then where’s it drop off to?
Guys they pulled off barstools in London more or less. A bunch of no name Englishman.
Throw him in against Jermaine Taylor, Winky, Pavlik, and the real crowd of hardened Americans, and he’ll get eaten up.
But no, we’ve got fight old Roy… and even then, I think Roy is going to do better than people think he’s going to against slappy.
[quote]Xeneize wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Xeneize wrote:
Airtruth wrote:
I agree with this
A ring for the big blue is good every other year.
Nice find.
I gotta agree with RJ that a Marciano vs. prime Tyson would be a heck of a matchup. But I think Tyson’s speed and athleticism would be the difference. There’s no way the Rock would be able to cope with that. It would be a repeat of Michael Spinks, but it would probably go a few more rounds.
Come to think of it, Marciano vs. Holyfield at cruiserweight would really be a terrific matchup.
You know, it really drives me nuts that people give Tyson so much credit.
I said it before- he’s got a chance against anyone because of his natural ability. But when he fought world-class fighters, I’ve never seen someone perform worse. I mean fuck guys, Buster Douglas? Holyfield twice, and Lennox Lewis showed him up for the mental fraud he was.
Natural ability is one thing, but in boxing it’s nothing without mental fortitude. The fact that anyone thinks that Mike Tyson would win against Muhammud Ali, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Joe Frazier, or any of the other legends seriously amazes me.
Would they be fun fights to watch? Absolutely would. But Ali would put him down just like Lennox did, probably easier because he was so much quicker than him. The rest of them KO him easily by the sixth, especially Marciano. Tyson couldn’t handle pressure, and couldn’t handle someone who wasn’t scared of him. And Rock feared no one.
Joe Louis… forget it. He’s probably #3 or 4 on my list of all time greats. He’d murder Tyson. It probably wouldn’t even be fair.
I don’t think anyone (at least not me) is saying Tyson is in serious discussion for greatest of all time. His career as a whole and his legacy don’t merit that.
But I was thinking of Tyson at his peak, which was at his physically and mentally best, with Cus D’Mato, Jimmy Jacobs and Kevin Rooney behind him, in a fantasy matchup with Marciano. Tyson, at his best, would just be too athletic, quick and powerful for the Rock. Marciano was the best of his era, and he fought everyone there was at the time. But he wouldn’t even be a heavyweight in the last 30 years. The difference in size and power is prohibitive. Foreman, Ali, Holmes, Lewis would have killed him.
You’re right about Louis … he would beat the crap out of Tyson. Unless Tyson caught him in the first couple of rounds, ala Schmeling. Then it could have been a short, easy night for Iron Mike. But the smart money would be on Louis, a technically sound, calm fighter with devastating power.
You know, Marciano talked about coming out of retirement to fight Sonny Liston. He died in that plane crash while he was pondering that decision. Could he have beaten Liston? Sure, maybe. But he may have ended up tarnishing his legacy forever, too.
[/quote]
I disagree. Marciano was small for a heavyweight, but Jack Dempsey fought and knocked out men that were much larger. Like that article someone posted said- the difference between a born puncher at 187 and 215 is not that big of a deal.
Here’s a good article on Dempsey’s power standing up against the test of time that I found on East Side Boxing.
Firpo film offers stunning proof of Jack Dempsey�??s greatness
09.12.05 - By Mike Casey: On September 14, at the old Polo Grounds in New York, Jack Dempsey, the great Manassa Mauler, made the fifth successful defence of his heavyweight championship by knocking out the Wild Bull of the Pampas, Luis Angel Firpo, in the second round.
These are the bare facts of what arguably still ranks as the most thrilling heavyweight title fight of all time. In cold print, the simple stats give us just a mere hint of the mayhem and wild excitement that the two contestants crammed into the short space of two minutes and fifty-seven seconds.
The action was sustained and chaotic, the speed and punching power of Dempsey phenomenal and the fighting courage of Firpo immense.
Dempsey floored the giant from Argentina seven times in all, but also suffered two knockdowns himself in a frenetic first round, which saw Firpo connect with a right to the jaw and an accompanying shove that knocked Jack clear out of the ring…
I have a good quality film of the fight in my collection, which is a revelation in measuring Dempsey�??s greatness against past and future champions. Jack comes through with flying colours, dispelling the modern myth that the smaller heavyweights of his era would be meat and drink for the super-heavyweights of today.
The major point that always seems lost on many of today�??s boxing fans, (including so-called experts mind you), is that the punching power of natural born, one-off hitters like Dempsey, Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano doesn�??t diminish against heavier opponents.
Dempsey didn�??t just beat the gigantic and underrated Jess Willard in winning the world title in the searing heat of Toledo. He slaughtered him with a single left hook to the jaw in the first round, which effectively ended the fight right there and then. The remainder of that so-called contest, with the greatest respect to Willard�??s courage, was little more than a morbid sideshow.
Dempsey cut down big men in Carl Morris and the dangerous Fred Fulton. In his destruction of Firpo, Jack was outweighed by forty pounds.
Joe Louis didn�??t just beat such talented giants as Buddy Baer and Abe Simon, he decimated them.
Do I believe that Dempsey would have torn through Lennox Lewis and Vitali Klitschko? Absolutely.
Do I believe that Joe Louis would have trapped and finished Muhammad Ali or Larry Holmes inside fifteen rounds or even twelve? On Joe�??s best night, yes I do.
People who get over-excited about these things overlook the evidence that we already have. Henry Cooper, at 183 pounds and outweighed by nearly twenty-five, very nearly knocked out Ali with a single shot to the jaw in the famous fight of the split glove incident at the Empire Pool, Wembley in 1963.
Prior to that, Doug Jones, never more than a puffed up light-heavyweight, had made thousands believe that he had shaded Muhammad in their ten-rounder at Madison Square Garden, after jabbing, hustling and pressuring The Greatest throughout.
Oh, and by the way, how come little �??ol Chris Byrd doesn�??t get steamrollered by all those 250-270lb guys?
The eternal fascination and appeal of the heavyweight division, and one of the principal reasons why it has never been supplanted in the professional game by a super-heavy sector, is that the normal rules of nature so rarely apply. Natural punchers from the lower weight divisions frequently discover that they cannot carry their power up to a higher weight, yet that law of life has never applied to the heavyweights anywhere near as consistently.
Let�??s take a further time out and look at Joe Frazier�??s success against Ali. Much as I loved Smokin�?? Joe, he didn�??t possess Dempsey�??s natural knockout power, nor his speed or punch resistance. Jack was also far more versatile in his attacks, constantly circling and looking for new angles, while Joe pretty much chugged forward in a straight line. Yet Frazier went 1-2 in his three fights with Ali. Why, then, is it so fanciful to suppose that Dempsey would have fared better against Muhammad in a similar trilogy?
Frazier was a hurtful puncher, but not a genuine knockout artist. His come-on style was hugely effective and exciting against the right opponents, but suicidal against a big, upright puncher like George Foreman.
The great irony of the criticism of �??small heavyweights�?? like Dempsey, and Louis is that they were given the most trouble by smaller men. Jack got the run-around by Tommy Gibbons and Georges Carpentier before winning through. Louis nearly blew it against the speedy and artful Billy Conn in their first meeting. But then if we�??re being pedantic, every heavyweight champion there has ever been has been made to look a little foolish by a smaller, slippery opponent.
Tutored
There is another crucially important point to take into consideration here. As well as possessing an instinctive, God-given feel for their chosen profession, Dempsey and Louis were well tutored and learned to punch correctly. There were no Rocky Balboa-like haymakers from the bleachers when Jack and Joe applied the coup de grace. The punches were short, fast, sometimes hard to catch at first sight, and had as much to do with immaculate timing as power.
The combination of speed and timing make a potent force. As a fascinated twelve-year old, I remember watching the clever Jimmy Ellis, at 194lbs, twice decking Oscar Bonavena (208) in their 1967 Louisville fight, simply by outmanoeuvring Oscar and catching him on the fly.
Jimmy Young, outweighed by sixteen pounds, sent George Foreman tumbling after tying him in knots with hand speed, movement and angles.
We are really only talking about the boxing equivalent of a skilful baseball player sending a fastball straight out of the park. The genuinely great hitters of the diamond appear to do little more than gently stroke the speeding bullet.
The left hook with which Dempsey disposed of Jack Sharkey, lightning fast and perfectly timed, travelled no distance at all yet quite literally lifted Sharkey off his feet before he crashed to the canvas. Sharkey would later say of his conqueror, �??You came out of a fight with Dempsey full of welts and bruises and every bone aching.�??
Watch the films, but open your eyes and watch them carefully. Look past the boring, grainy black and white of the day and the occasional skips and jumps. Look through all that and see the evidence that is so often ignored by the �??right here, right now�?? brigade whose historical perspective might just go all the way back to the late 1980s.
When Dempsey and Louis hit opponents, a quite visible judder would go through their bodies. Delayed knockdowns were not uncommon as the force of the blows registered shockingly, in the way of thunder following lightning. Check out Billy Conn�??s reaction when Louis strikes him with the payoff punches in the fateful thirteenth round of their epic first duel. Billy actually hovers in mid-flight for a split second before falling slowly to the canvas.
Mike Tyson, a terrific exponent of short-range power punching, destroyed Trevor Berbick in similar fashion. Alas, even Mike�??s fabulous championship form is already being dismissed and buried by the dreaded revisionists, who base their judgement on the disturbed and de-motivated ghost that he has been for at least the last ten years.
For all the times I have seen the film of Dempsey knocking out Firpo, I still have to rewind the tape and play it back on some of the knockdowns in order to fully appreciate the flashing hooks that Jack is burying in Firpo�??s stomach and bouncing off his chin. Dempsey�??s pet combination of a right hook to the body and a left hook to the chin was delivered with incredible speed. I would argue confidently that his speed of hand and foot still stands up against any of his fellow heavyweight champions, Ali included.
No less an authority as the fearsome Sam Langford praised Dempsey as the greatest heavyweight fighter he ever saw.
For me, one of the most beautiful ironies of modern technology, specifically the digital re-mastering of old fight films, is that so many long-held myths about the fighters of old are now being blown out of the water. These guys were not slow and ponderous, and their punch-per-round rate in many cases has been proven to be right on a par with that of today�??s fighters.
It is perfectly true that quick-fire combination punching is a relatively new aspect of the game, but how many of its exponents are more accurate hitters than their predecessors? I see so many young prospects firing off a salvo of ten or twelve shots and hitting nothing but the other guy�??s gloves. It�??s beautiful to watch, but any judge who knows his business shouldn�??t be scoring points for it.
Some years ago, I uncovered an eyewitness account of one of Charley Burley�??s fights. The gentleman lucky enough to have seen this great ring mechanic in the flesh made two interesting observations. The first was that Burley frequently threw only one shot at a time. The second was that he so rarely missed. Such was Charley�??s stunning accuracy, the few mistakes he did make showed up as glaring errors.
To his dying day, Archie Moore lauded Burley as the greatest master of the ring he had ever faced.
Hero
If the Jess Willard fight defined Jack Dempsey�??s talent as a ferocious fighter, the Firpo victory defined his future perception in the eyes of America. All of five years after the end of World War 1, Jack was still being booed into the ring as a �??slacker�??. He and manager, Jack �??Doc�?? Kearns had registered for the draft and been deferred because of Jack�??s family needs and those of the Doc�??s mother.
But the public misread the situation, and the scowling, unshaven Dempsey was conveniently cast as the bad guy.
The Firpo fight changed all that. No longer was Jack the villain. He was America�??s hero forever more, boxing�??s slugging answer to baseball�??s Babe Ruth.
Jack further endeared himself to the public with his honesty and self-effacing humour when discussing his own talent and his less than glorious moments in the ring.
Recalling the incredible Firpo fight years later, the Mauler�??s thoughts were thus: �??I sure underestimated Luis. They�??re still talking about the Firpo fight and I guess they always will.
�??When the introductions and the boos were over that night at the jam-packed Polo Grounds, I went across the ring after the big fellow as fast as I could move. I jabbed him, hit him with a kind of sounding-out left. Then I missed a right.
�??I reared back and, just as I did, he caught me with a right hand on my cheekbone. If I hadn�??t been going away, he would have knocked me cold. Flat on my back. As it was, it knocked me out on my feet.
�??If you�??ve seen the movies of the fight, you know what happened the rest of the round. Seeing the pictures the day after the fight was the only way I ever learned about what happened.
�??I knocked him down six or seven times. I hit him a couple of times before he got off the floor.* I stepped over him a couple of times. I didn�??t know what I was doing. I was dazed and out on my feet.
�??I have no memory to this day of the most spectacular thing that has ever happened to me in my fighting life �?? being knocked out of the ring by Firpo.
�??There was just this fog in front of my eyes, and through it I could see this big guy getting up every time I knocked him down, and the crowd was screaming so loud it made it even harder for my brain to try to think. It was still the first round.
�??Then he was up again and on me like a giant. He outweighed me (by) forty pounds. I backed up as he came on, trading punches. I was instinctively waiting for my back to touch the ropes, I guess. But just before I could touch, and with about ten seconds left of the first round, he half hit and half shoved me with a right to the face.
�??I went out of the ring backward, between the top and middle ropes, and landed on my neck on Jack Lawrence�??s typewriter in the first row of the press section.
�??I don�??t remember getting back into the ring. The first clear thing was that I was sitting on my stool and the three guys in my corner �?? Kearns, Benjamin and Jerry the Greek �?? were cursing one another. They couldn�??t find the smelling salts, that�??s what the argument was about. Finally Kearns found the bottle in his shirt pocket and pushed it under my nose. They slapped me a lot.
�??What round was I knocked out in?�?? I said.
They were rubbing my back and arms now.
�??You just slipped,�?? Kearns said. �??You�??re coming out for the second.�??
�??My head was now clear and I could think.
�??I went out after him again, but this time with respect. I wasn�??t going to get nailed again. I stuck a right under his left hand and finally crossed him on the chin. He was swaying like a ship at sea. Two good lefts to the jaw and that was all there was to it.�?? **
Epilogue
Does Jack Dempsey continue to transcend boxing all these years later? Any doubts I had on that score were banished by my nephew, who is seventeen and knows absolutely nothing about the noble art. He was very despondent, because he had recently bought some tropical fish and they were dying by the day.
�??I�??ve got a Jack Dempsey in there,�?? he moaned, gesturing at the tank.
My ears pricked up. �??A Jack Dempsey?�??
He nodded. �??Yeah, man, it�??s a rogue fish that kills all the others.�??
MIKE CASEY is a boxing journalist and historian, a member of the International Boxing Research Organization and founder and editor of The Grand Slam Premium Boxing Service for boxing historians and fans. (www.grandslampage.net)
EXPLANATORY NOTE AND SOURCE
- In the days before it was mandatory for a fighter to go to a neutral corner after flooring his opponent.
** Jack Dempsey�??s comments from Massacre in the Sun by Bob Considine and Bill Slocum (William Heinemann, 1960)
[quote]Like who? Mikkel Kessler? Jeff Lacy? And then where’s it drop off to?
Guys they pulled off barstools in London more or less. A bunch of no name Englishman.
Throw him in against Jermaine Taylor, Winky, Pavlik, and the real crowd of hardened Americans, and he’ll get eaten up.
But no, we’ve got fight old Roy… and even then, I think Roy is going to do better than people think he’s going to against slappy.[/quote]
Glad you said it. I didn’t want to take over the thread ;).
Mike Cassey exaggerates quite a bit here. (also when it comes to detail, for example Firpo outweighed Dempsey by 24 lbs , not 40, according to boxrec)
Size does matter in boxing, even above 185 lbs.
Do older guys often try to paint their champions more colourful then they were, especially when we’re talking about boxing heavyweight champs? Of course they do.
Do younger folks praise recent champions too much? Yep.
There is lots of middle ground here.
[quote]TheG wrote:
duffyj2 wrote:
TheG wrote:
I can’t believe no one’s mentioned possibly the best boxer of all time who is Joe Calzaghe. he has over 30 knockouts to his name and in a career spanning 15 years he is undefeated. he’s the undisputed super middleweight champion with nearly twenty successful title defenses and recently moved up a weight class and beat the light heavyweight champion bernard hopkins. what other fighter has surpassed that record in his career? not Tyson for sure.
I give no respect to slappers who beat up old men.
hopkins may have been older than him but what about every other fighter he’s beaten and if IF he beats roy jones jr then you really can’t make that statement. [/quote]
Why not? Roy is far passed his prime. IF anything, it lends more credibility to that statement.
Calzaghe’s only fought bums and old men. He’s a decent fighter but nowhere near an all time great because at 36 he’s still untested.