What is the best beef to eat then in your opinion, without spending zillions of dollars, for long term health?
In a perfect world, grass fed beef is probably much better for you. But this is not a perfect world, and there is absolutely no way of knowing what you are buying. There are no standards. There are no requirements. Anyone can start selling beef out their back door and calling it grass fed.
Longterm? Do what Schwartzy does. If you buy steaks, hand trim the fat. [/quote]
Cool, that's what I was thinking. I've been slamming high dose fish oil since a good while back when I first started the AD. Since cessation I've kept tossing them down. I just avoid mixing the moderate/high carb days with the high fat. Or same during the day, I'll do my starchy carb ingestion around the workout, then add in the saturated fats with EVOO the rest of the day, with fish oils throughout the whole day. Seems to be working fine, last time I had testing done all of my cholesterol, triglyceride levels were outstanding, whilst consuming large amounts of heavy cream, beef etc..
I agree with Rainjack, there aren't too many people who can REALISTICALLY consume large amounts of this high priced beef on an average budget. The fish oil will keep you healthy, and/or counter any negatives from the regular beef, along with a nice supply of anti-oxidants etc.
And Pfifer, those "pills" are just natural omega 3 containing fish oils in a capsule, so what are you trying to infer? Still don't see the price being that close comparitively either in the area I live in. It's quite a gap. Not saying I wouldn't buy it over the regular if it indeed was as easy/cheap as you guys are saying though. I just don't see it that way.
ToneBone
[quote]swordthrower wrote:
I can’t name ANY farmers that have slaughter facilities, but I can name quite a few who would like them. However, since the USDA regulations are written for large operations, they can’t build processing facilities without a huge investment that they would never be able to pay off.[/quote]
Who wouldn’t want a slaughter facility? Your USDA info is wrong. There are many mom and pop custom slaughter facilities - that is non corporate slaughter plants - that are all under USDA control.
DO you have actual figures for your assumptions? I am in the middle of farming country - I make my living knowing all I can about farming issues, including gav’t payments to farmers. I can tell you that there are few, if any “corporate farms” in the Plains of Texas.
I don’t know about other states such as Iowa, and Nebraska - but the ADM’s and the Cargills make more money developing seed, reselling it to the farmers, and buying their crops back.
I worked in the cattle feeding industry for over 10 years - I guess you can say I have a good bit of hands on experience. Most cattle die of bloat at night when they stop moving around. Unless you good farmer stays up all night every nightthat his cattle are on wheat pasture, most of his death loss comes from bloat.
Fat cattle can bloat and die at the drop of a hat.
What is a CAFO and what medication do they use to prevent bloat? It is the leading killer in feedlot cattle.
I don’t think they present an accurate, practical picture of the cattle industry. They seem to vilify big business’ interest in the food industry.
I don’t disagree with this. But - the american consumer wants cheap, safe food. Without the presence of big business - you don’t get the efficiency. With 300 million people in the country - there are not enough mom and pops to offer a stable, fresh food supply.
This discussion comes up every few months, or so. There is always some yay-hoo that posts the same stuff you do. Most of the time they are railing against the Walmarts, or some other big chain. I think it is funny. My arguments will stand on their own as they do every time I have this discussion - sarcasm or not.
Fact is - there is no efficient way to provide quality grass fed beef. There is no guarantee that the people selling the supposed grass fed beef are telling you the truth.
My facts come from saddling a horse before day break every morning for 10 years and checking cattle. My facts come from talking to ranchers about the most efficient way to market their cattle. My facts come from watching cattle trample all over grass and hay in favor of freshly delivered cotton seed meal.
In short, my facts come from actually living in the cattle industry, and having a BS in Animal Health Management.
[quote]wfifer wrote:
I just got 16 lbs for $80. This huge price differential you’re spouting about is just not there. And I don’t know about you, but I’d rather just eat good food than try to fix a crappy diet with pills. [/quote]
How “grass fed” is your beef? I can sell you a bucket of crap and call it grass fed beef. There are no standards.
If it is that cheap - you either bought 16 pounds of canner beef, or they added 20 bucks a pound to regular feedlot beef.
How much fat is in your meat?
DO you eat meat for fat, or protein?
I think it is odd you judge the quality of one’s diet by how much they pay. or don’t pay.
[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
I go to walmart and get either ground beef or steaks for like $2/lb on sale. Then I proceed to the pharmacy section and get 400 caps of 1g fish oil (USP grade) for $12. I eat my beef, then eat some fish oil. I do the same thing with eggs. Why the fuck do people spend so much money on omega-3 eggs when they can buy regular eggs at 1/4 the cost and just pop some fish oil with their meal? Am I missing something here?[/quote]
[quote]rainjack wrote:
wfifer wrote:
I just got 16 lbs for $80. This huge price differential you’re spouting about is just not there. And I don’t know about you, but I’d rather just eat good food than try to fix a crappy diet with pills.
How “grass fed” is your beef? I can sell you a bucket of crap and call it grass fed beef. There are no standards.
If it is that cheap - you either bought 16 pounds of canner beef, or they added 20 bucks a pound to regular feedlot beef.
How much fat is in your meat?
DO you eat meat for fat, or protein?
I think it is odd you judge the quality of one’s diet by how much they pay. or don’t pay.
[/quote]
I bought it from the site mentioned in the first post. They claim the omega 6:3 ratio is better than 3:1. The beef is 75%. When I eat beef, it’s generally because I want the fat.
I’m not judging the quality of your diet. I’m saying I’d rather just eat something good than have to supplement something bad with some pills. I’d also rather eat fruits and vegetables than take multis and whatnot.
They claim it is 6:3. Do you know for a fact that is what it is?
Is this ground beef? Like hamburger meat? Do you have any idea how much of that is water?
Ground beef is where they put everything they can’t put anywhere else. Lots of water.
I’m not trying to sound like a know-it-all, but if I know anything about anything in this world, it is about the beef industry.
I’m just saying if it sounds too good to be true - you might want to have their claims tested.
I’m a little late…and this has been touched on, but here’s the deal.
BEEF HAS VERY LITTLE POLYUNSATURATED FAT IN IT.
Even if ALL of the polyunsaturated fat did indeed come from Omega-3, its still a small amount of omega-3 fatty acids. Besides that, even in grass fed beef, there are still other polyunsaturated fats, which are not of the omega-3 variety, which comprise the total polyunsaturated fat content. I am not simply referring to omega-6 fats, either. There are various fatty acids, which contain multiple double bonds, which also contain various hydrocarbon chains of differing lengths, which are not omega-6 or omega-3 fats.
In a 100 gram sample of 70% lean/30% fat ground beef, there is only 0.696 grams of polyunsaturated fat. Of this 0.696 grams, only 0.069 grams (that’s 6.9 mg, folks) is omega-3. Granted, this information is probably for grain fed beef, but even if ALL 0.696 grams of polyunsaturated fat came from n-3 fatty acids (which it doesn’t), it would only contain 600mg of omega-3, which is equivalent to 2 standard strength fish oil capsules.
It simply makes no sense to justify spending the extra money on grass fed beef by simply citing the n-6:n-3 ratio being better. The total polyunsaturated fat content is too low, regardless of feed type. Yeah yeah, CLA. Still doesn’t justify the cost.
[quote]Kalle wrote:
Carlsbad wrote:
rholdnr,
I understand the health benefits of grass fed beef. My point was your claim that buying range free, grass fed was no more expensive than corn fed was wrong.
BTW: I have purchased a free range grass fed half cow and let me tell you it provided a lot less meet after processing than 300 lbs - more like 175 lbs. It worked out to be about $6 per pound. I’m still buying but now just ground beef.
Carlsbad
Where do you order it from? The only place I found on that list somewhat near me told me they would cut me a “deal” for 50lbs of ground beef at 6 dollars per pound! I think from grassland beef the 88% lean works out to 5.14per lb or so.
Any better sources?[/quote]
I bought it from the website listed at the start of the thread.
They give you a discount for the larger purchases. I bought other stuff there too so it’s not exact but the 50 lbs cost a little over $200. They give you a $50 credit so it actually worked out to a little over $4 a pound. Not bad.
I’m cool with you not buying grass fed beef. It’s a personal choice.
I also buy organic eggs, organic milk, organic veggies. Are they better for you? Probably. Are they worth it? That’s not clear. Organic food cost more for a lot of reasons but I think mainly because they are not mainstream (economies of scale). So what? It’s a personal choice.
I also take lots of fish oil. I have friends who claim that’s a waste of money too. No big deal. We all have to come to our own conclusions.
I’m cool with you not buying grass fed beef. It’s a personal choice.
I also buy organic eggs, organic milk, organic veggies. Are they better for you? Probably. Are they worth it? That’s not clear. Organic food cost more for a lot of reasons but I think mainly because they are not mainstream (economies of scale). So what? It’s a personal choice.
I also take lots of fish oil. I have friends who claim that’s a waste of money too. No big deal. We all have to come to our own conclusions.
Carlsbad[/quote]
I agree - it’s a totally personal choice.
But unless you are getting the meat independently tested, you have no way of knowing if you are actually buying healthier beef, or being taken advantage of.
I would not have an issue with the grass fed beef movement, if there were some sort of standard for these folks to adhere to.
It’s not your choice to buy grass fed that is the problem. It is the producers that can tell you anything and get away with it that I have a problem with.
Getting quality, highly palatable grass fed beef is a very, very tough undertaking given the current genetic pool in commercial beef cattle. They are all bred to be be highly efficient on grain.
I would have to agree with rainjack somewhat on the principal of no standards. There is a certification for “organic” and when people talk grass fed they do not go hand in hand with organic.
It is illegal for an organic producer to not treat a sick animal, they just can’t sell it as organic if antibiotics were used. The animal may still be grass fed. Grass fed could be any stage of production of the cattle. It could be yearling calves, finished animals, cull cows, or even bulls. Grass fed means they could still be given hormones and growth promotants. Just because the animal is grass fed does not give it any certification of a standard. I’ve seen/heard of organic producers sell their product as organic but also sell beef at their farm gate, or a neighbors, as grass fed but it was their animals that were once sick, treated and recovered. Not all producers are like this however. The vast majority are honest in what they say and do.
Organic producers have a sales pitch and that is that their product is healthier. Part of being able to charge more is due to lower productivity from the land and from the animal. Touting a superior product also allows them to charge what the market is willing to pay.
Coming from a Western Canadian farm we grew all our own meat. I still work in the livestock industry. I also have a background as a meat cutter. If I could I still would grow my own. I know the background of the animal. It wasn’t organic but we certainly were very close to it.
If you can, and you are buying certified organic meat ask for the records and practices of the producer as it has to be documented. Also don’t ask to buy a cow, it’s an older breeding female, ask for a finished steer or heifer. They are under 2 years of age.
If you buy a 1000 lb finished steer you are likely going to end up with 550 lbs of carcass. Somtimes a cull bull, if under 1.5 years old is cheaper and if handled correctly would be just as good, but the potential to be a “dark cutter” (dry, dark and tough) is a little higher, so get a guarantee of replacement if you go this route. A 264 lb market pig will get you about 210 lb carcass. The female market pig will yeild a leaner carcass.
Right now the Western Canadian Livestock industry is hurting due tothe Canadian dollar. There’s potential for a lot of producers, big, small, corporate and private to leave or be forced out of the industry. Be prepared for higher pork and beef prices. Chicken, poultry, dairy are supply managed so as demand increases prices will likely follow. This won’t have much impact in the USA unless they start exporting more beef and pork into Canada.
I agree it’s also your personal choice in what you buy.
Sorry for the long post but just my 2 cents. If I can help answer any questions, just ask. I am not an expert, however.
[quote]NewDamage wrote:
I’m a little late…and this has been touched on, but here’s the deal.
BEEF HAS VERY LITTLE POLYUNSATURATED FAT IN IT.
Even if ALL of the polyunsaturated fat did indeed come from Omega-3, its still a small amount of omega-3 fatty acids. Besides that, even in grass fed beef, there are still other polyunsaturated fats, which are not of the omega-3 variety, which comprise the total polyunsaturated fat content. I am not simply referring to omega-6 fats, either. There are various fatty acids, which contain multiple double bonds, which also contain various hydrocarbon chains of differing lengths, which are not omega-6 or omega-3 fats.
In a 100 gram sample of 70% lean/30% fat ground beef, there is only 0.696 grams of polyunsaturated fat. Of this 0.696 grams, only 0.069 grams (that’s 6.9 mg, folks) is omega-3. Granted, this information is probably for grain fed beef, but even if ALL 0.696 grams of polyunsaturated fat came from n-3 fatty acids (which it doesn’t), it would only contain 600mg of omega-3, which is equivalent to 2 standard strength fish oil capsules.
It simply makes no sense to justify spending the extra money on grass fed beef by simply citing the n-6:n-3 ratio being better. The total polyunsaturated fat content is too low, regardless of feed type. Yeah yeah, CLA. Still doesn’t justify the cost.
I’m cool with you not buying grass fed beef. It’s a personal choice.
I also buy organic eggs, organic milk, organic veggies. Are they better for you? Probably. Are they worth it? That’s not clear. Organic food cost more for a lot of reasons but I think mainly because they are not mainstream (economies of scale). So what? It’s a personal choice.
[/quote]
I would argue that it’s less so because of economies of scale and moreso attributable to a comparably low elasticity of demand.
It seems so simple I’m surprised I didn’t think of it. It almost sounds too simple to be a valid explanation, though sometimes simple is better. It does make sense.
This does assume that grass-fed beef and grain-fed beef have the same fatty acid profile. Perhaps finishing a cow with grass increases the ratio of PUFA to other kinds of fats. I don’t have any reliable nutritional data to work with here, so speculation is all I’ve got to offer.
[quote]FlavaDave wrote:
Carlsbad wrote:
rainjack, et al,
I’m cool with you not buying grass fed beef. It’s a personal choice.
I also buy organic eggs, organic milk, organic veggies. Are they better for you? Probably. Are they worth it? That’s not clear. Organic food cost more for a lot of reasons but I think mainly because they are not mainstream (economies of scale). So what? It’s a personal choice.
I would argue that it’s less so because of economies of scale and moreso attributable to a comparably low elasticity of demand.[/quote]
Good point. The grass fed/organic movement is the first time in my memory that a commodity has attempted to cross over to being a value added product. There was the “Certified Black Angus” thing several years ago, but it has not really added any value to what is still just a commodity. Cattlemen are price takers, just like farmers.
There’s a ranch, Thundering Hooves, www.thunderinghooves.net in Washington State that has Grass Fed beef and seems to have pretty good prices. They delivery to the Seattle area. They have their own USDA approved slaughter house which I think helps keep the cost down. Ground beef is never more the $4 a pound and for the last 4 months I have been able to buy 1 pound packages for $2.50. they also do whip around the Northwest however the shipping will increase the cost.
Not all people will like the taste though. I have had a few people try it that didn’t like it. In fact one guy that hates fish and loves burgers tried it and thought that someone was cooking fish on the same grill He said he can taste a slight fish taste when his dad cooks fish on the same grill as regular beef. I thought that was interesting since people claim grass fed beef has a similar fat profile to a fish. Maybe the change in fat profile makes you taste for of a fish flavor.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
FlavaDave wrote:
Carlsbad wrote:
rainjack, et al,
I’m cool with you not buying grass fed beef. It’s a personal choice.
I also buy organic eggs, organic milk, organic veggies. Are they better for you? Probably. Are they worth it? That’s not clear. Organic food cost more for a lot of reasons but I think mainly because they are not mainstream (economies of scale). So what? It’s a personal choice.
I would argue that it’s less so because of economies of scale and moreso attributable to a comparably low elasticity of demand.
Good point. The grass fed/organic movement is the first time in my memory that a commodity has attempted to cross over to being a value added product. There was the “Certified Black Angus” thing several years ago, but it has not really added any value to what is still just a commodity. Cattlemen are price takers, just like farmers.
[/quote]
I’m not sure I follow. There’s a cow which is the commodity. Basically every step along the line (feeding, slaughtering, etc) adds value in some way.
You’re saying that the “Certified Black Angus” designation is a value adder? I think it could maybe qualify, but I think the main reason for this certification movement was to bring this type of beef to the attention of the public and thus create a new demand for it. That does result in a possibility of being able to raise the price (in fact it would for sure raise the equilibrium price), but I don’t think that act in its self adds value to the beef.
There’s a parallel between the CBA and grass fed/organic movements.
Sorry for pedantry. After writing this I don’t feel like it adds anything worthwhile to the discussion, but I spent time writing it so I’m determined to hit the submit button.
edit - nevermind. I had a brain fart. marketing = adding value.
In short, my facts come from actually living in the cattle industry, and having a BS in Animal Health Management.
[/quote]
Thanks for the response. So my question would be, in a perfect world, how would the beef industry look? It seems like you are not convinced that the conventional system produces the most healthy beef, and you think the grass-fed system is not scalable to industrial size and lacks regulation. Both are valid points, so what do you think the solution is?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
They claim it is 6:3. Do you know for a fact that is what it is?
Is this ground beef? Like hamburger meat? Do you have any idea how much of that is water?
Ground beef is where they put everything they can’t put anywhere else. Lots of water.
I’m not trying to sound like a know-it-all, but if I know anything about anything in this world, it is about the beef industry.
I’m just saying if it sounds too good to be true - you might want to have their claims tested.
I hope I am wrong.
[/quote]
I don’t think it sounds too good to be true. I’m still paying a bit more than I would for the regular beef plus fish oil. But I’ve done the beef and fish oil thing, and I wasn’t terribly impressed, at least at the low dosage we’re talking about here.
Hell, I’ve tried a lot of things. I do my homework, but you’re absolutely right, I don’t know what I’m getting. My philosophy, though, has always been to try things out. So this time I managed to justify buying the grass fed beef making the assumption that it’ll stack up to all I’ve heard about it. When my supply is up I’ll decide if I buy more based on my experience. In the end, what matters is that I’ve made my own mind. The thing is, I can’t really do that unless I’ve actually tried it. =P
In short, my facts come from actually living in the cattle industry, and having a BS in Animal Health Management.
Thanks for the response. So my question would be, in a perfect world, how would the beef industry look? It seems like you are not convinced that the conventional system produces the most healthy beef, and you think the grass-fed system is not scalable to industrial size and lacks regulation. Both are valid points, so what do you think the solution is?
[/quote]
In a perfect world? Unlimited grass that was 25% Crud Protein, a slaughter facility on every ranch, and 100% certified disease free cattle.
I have toyed with the idea of getting into the grass fed beef business - but the efficiencies are just not there. Partly due to the fact that this is a new industry, and partly because the cattle are genetically geared toward slamming down grain.
Basically, the grass fed movement is not efficient.
The downside to the big, commercial beef industry is that it is too efficient. Raising quality meat has been replaced with raising more meat period.
I am not convinced that 100% grass fed is the best way to go. Nor do I think 100% grain fed is the way to go.
I would like to see some studies on the quality of meat from a grass based diet that is supplemented with grains. What we have now is just the opposite.