What the hell are we supposed to do?? Ticle them with a feather to talk?? RLTW
rangertab75
I’ve got a thread going called Adopt-A-Soldier. Let’s get a thread going now for all those who want to close Gitmo called Adopt-A-Terrorist! All those wanting the closure could adopt one of these ‘gems’, serving him breakfast in bed, making sure the AC was set ‘just right’, and so forth.
So, how about it guys? Adopt a soldier, or adopt a terrorist. Pick one.
[quote]rangertab75 wrote:
What the hell are we supposed to do?? Ticle them with a feather to talk?? RLTW
rangertab75[/quote]
Heck, If the law isn’t adequate for the results you’re looking for, just ignore legal niceties. After all, what has the law ever done for us?
It’s not as though people are fighting to preserve a way of life in a society that is governed by laws.
No question that once again the democrats hurt themselves by making such an association with Hitlers concentration camps. It almost seems like they should just sit there and shut up. Whenever Dean and company rise to speak they put their foot in their mouth. That of course is very funny stuff.
However, I will say that even though it is a tiny minority of our troops who have done the abuse, it’s wrong and should not be ignored!
We are America and if we are going to claim the moral high ground we need to actually stay on the moral high ground! That means obeying the laws.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
lumpy wrote:
While you’re thrilled to claim:
“America, we aren’t as bad as Iraq!”
Thanks for tacictly approving my comment. That’s as close to it as I’m ever going to get. Instead of, “Yes, Jeff. It does seem strange to worry about air conditioning when he voted against both Gulf Wars. We were fully aware of the mass murder and torture happening. Yet, he still voted against it. To have voted against stopping far worse abuses, and now to be taking liberties with an FBI report, seems very hypocritical.”
[/quote]
All fakery aside–this is just dumb. (It’s obviously not about air conditioning its about the use of “torture techniques” on prisoners.) Hypocritical would be supplying, arming, funding a ruthless dictator who you know is killing his own people and using wmd on his enemy and then using it as a fake justification to attack same ruthless dictator.
nice way of displacing blame. Seriously is this a complete logical breakdown, pointing out the problem is not the problem. Oh, Jeffry!
It’s hard to critique somebody telling the truth, isn’t it—hence you’ve dodged all around anything factual in your responses to his statements. You can’t say nobody would think that what was described in his commments could have happened in other places, because obviously the average person would think just that!—instead you just slander the person who said it, hence people you support just lie, like Frist repeating the wash times headline “Durbin called gitmo a deathcamp” Do you have a problem with such slander? Intellectual honesty demands you say “Yes!”
So?
Hello Pot, it’s me kettle–you look a little black today.
seriously? Not condemning this behavior in the firmest way possible endangers every american living and fighting here and abroad.
Yes–
I thought he was addressing the recent talk of shutting down Gitmo. As you know the point of the speach was not Gitmo, but how we treat our prisoners—I’m pretty sure he’d get support from the entire left-and some on the right. When those on the right say the same thing, uhmm… are they padering to the looney left? I assume Mel Martinez “knew exactly what he was doing”, but why oh why would he be pandering to the looney left? Oh jeffry! Are you ever thinking about the silly things you say?
Oh if only there weren’t so many things I couldn’t stand about inept dem leaders. As for talking points—A senator condemning these activities=good. Now when you have the pentagon saying we’re mishandling the Koran (we didn’t flush it–ala newsweek, we just got piss on it) and the fbi saying we’re using torture techiniques (and they’re afraid of the backlash) and the techniques of demeaning them are faith based and then you have those in the administration saying everything’s fine—well you see that can create quite a stir in the muslim world.
[quote]
JeffR wrote:
lumpy wrote:
While you’re thrilled to claim:
“America, we aren’t as bad as Iraq!”
Thanks for tacictly approving my comment. That’s as close to it as I’m ever going to get. Instead of, “Yes, Jeff. It does seem strange to worry about air conditioning when he voted against both Gulf Wars. We were fully aware of the mass murder and torture happening. Yet, he still voted against it. To have voted against stopping far worse abuses, and now to be taking liberties with an FBI report, seems very hypocritical.”
100meters wrote:
All fakery aside–this is just dumb. (It’s obviously not about air conditioning its about the use of “torture techniques” on prisoners.) Hypocritical would be supplying, arming, funding a ruthless dictator who you know is killing his own people and using wmd on his enemy and then using it as a fake justification to attack same ruthless dictator.[/quote]
I’m quite glad you used “torture techniques” in quotes. You did this for the same reason the International Red Cross was forced to insert the word “tantamount” in their ridiculous claim that some U.S. practices were “tantamount to torture.”
The reason you need these qualifiers is that U.S. techniques do not fit under the actual definition of torture in any possible manner. So in order for the people opposed to the U.S. practices to bitch about them, they have to insert qualifiers like “tantamount,” or, like 100meters, use quotes to indicate that you aren’t actually using the proper defintion of “torture.”
So keep complaining about the use of legal and proper techniques, and make certain that as you try to make people believe that we are guilty of torture you keep using the proper qualification modifiers to your claims.
Just like Durbin, the point of making these ridiculous claims is to mislead people into actually thinking that the U.S. is using Nazi/communist/torture techniques, but in fact it isn’t. And when people call you out on the fact that the whole purpose of the statement is to make people believe a false analogy, you can keep pointing to the qualifiers, and try to feel good about it.
Mark Steyn is a great writer. With apoligies to Hedo for the slight hi-jack from the specific question on Gitmo, here’s his take on Durbin:
Mark Steyn on Democratic complaints about Guantanamo
Mark Steyn
Been following the latest horrifying stories from what Amnesty International calls the ?gulag of our time?? John Kass of The Chicago Tribune was outraged by the news that records by Christina Aguilera had been played at Guantanamo at full volume in order to soften up detainees. He thought they should have used ?Dance, Ballerina, Dance? by Vaughn Monroe, over and over and over.
Well, readers had plenty of suggestions of their own, and so the Tribune?s website put together a list of ?Interro-Tunes? ? the most effective songs for aural intimidation, mood music for jolting your jihadi. A lot were the usual suspects - like the Captain and Tennille?s blamelessly goofy ?Muskrat Love?, which, as I recall, put the Queen to sleep at a White House gala, though the Duke of Edinburgh sat agog all the way to the end. Someone suggested Bob Dylan?s ?Everybody Must Get Stoned?, which even on a single hearing sounds like it?s being played over and over. I don?t know what Mr Kass has against ?Ballerina?, which is very pleasant in the Nat ?King? Cole version. But he seems to think one burst of ?Dance, ballerina, dance/And do your pirouette in rhythm with your aching heart? will have the Islamists howling for the off-switch and singing like canaries to the Feds. Who knows? I sang ?Ballerina? myself once on the radio long ago, and, if it will discombobulate the inmates, I?m willing to dust off my arrangement and fly down to Guantanamo, if necessary dressed liked Christina Aguilera. If they want an encore, I?ll do my special culturally sensitive version of that Stevie Wonder classic, ?My Sharia Amour?.
By now, one or two readers may be frothing indignantly, ?That?s not funny! Bush?s torture camp at Guantanamo is the gulag of our time, if not of all time.? But that?s the point. The world divides into those who feel the atrocities at Gitmo ?must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime ? Pol Pot or others? (in the widely quoted words of Senator Dick Durbin), and the rest of us, for whom the more we hear the specifics of the ?atrocities? the funnier they are. They bear the same relation to the gulags (15-30 million dead), the Nazi camps (nine million dead) and the killing fields of Cambodia (two million dead) as Mel Brooks? ?Springtime For Hitler? does to the original. Nobody complained at Auschwitz that the guards were playing the 78s of The Merry Widow (the Fuhrer?s favorite operetta) with the volume knob too high. When that old KGB hand Yuri Andropov succeeded Brezhnev as the big guy in the Kremlin, he was reported in the western press to be a big Glenn Miller fan. But to the best of my knowledge no-one suggested he was in the basement of the Lubyanka torturing the inmates with ?I Got A Gal In Kalamazoo?.
The first time the full-blast junk-pop treatment caught the eye of the media was a decade and a half back, when US troops bombarded the Panamanian strongman General Noriega with the Bobby Fuller Four?s ?I Fought The Law (And The Law Won)?. In those days, nobody reckoned it was torture. But these days torture seems to be in the ear of the behearer. Because the jihadi find western culture depraved ? and I?m not necessarily in disagreement on that, at least where Christina Aguilera?s concerned ? we?re obliged to be extra-super-duper-sensitive with them.
Says who? Again, the more one hears the specifics of the ?insensitivity? of the American regime at Guantanamo, the more many of us reckon we?re being way too sensitive. For example, camp guards are under instructions to handle copies of the Koran only when wearing gloves. The reason for this is that the detainees regard infidels as ?unclean?. Fair enough, each to his own. But it?s one thing for the Islamists to think infidels are unclean, quite another for the infidels to agree with them. Far from being tortured, the prisoners are being handled literally with kid gloves (or simulated kid-effect gloves). The US military hand each jihadi his complimentary copy of the Koran as delicately as white-gloved butlers bringing His Lordship The Times of London. When I bought a Koran to bone up on Islam a couple of days after 9/11, I didn?t wear gloves to the bookstore. If that?s ?disrespectful? to Muslims, tough. You should have thought about that before you allowed your holy book to become the central motivation for global jihad.
I?m not arguing the merits here so much as the politics. There?s certainly a discussion to be had about how to categorize these people. As things stand, they?re not covered by the Geneva Conventions ? they?re unlawful combatants, captured fighting in civilian clothes rather than uniform, and, when it comes to name, rank and serial number, they lack at least two thereof, and even the first is often highly variable. As a point of ?international law?, their fate is a matter entirely between Washington and the state of which they?re citizens (Saudi Arabia, mostly). I don?t think it?s a good idea to upgrade terrorists into lawful combatants. But if, like my namesake the British jurist Lord Steyn, you feel differently, fine, go ahead and make your case.
Where the anti-Gitmo crowd went wrong was in expanding its objections from the legal status of the prisoners to the treatment they?re receiving. By any comparison ? ie, not just with Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot ? they?re getting better than they deserve. It?s the first gulag in history where the torture victims put on weight. Each prisoner released from Guantanamo receives a new copy of the Koran plus a free pair of blue jeans in his new size: the average detainee puts on 13 pounds during his stay, thanks to the ?mustard-baked dill fish?, ?baked Tandoori chicken breast? and other delicacies. These and other recipes from the gulag?s kitchen have now been collected by some Internet wags and published as The Gitmo Cookbook.
Judging from the way he?s dug himself in, Dick Durbin, the Number Two Democrat in the US Senate, genuinely believes Gitmo is analogous to Belsen, the gulags and the killing fields. But he crossed a line, from anti-Bush to anti-American, and most Americans have no interest in following him down that path.You can?t claim (as Democrats do, incessantly) to ?support our troops? and then dump them in the same category as the Nazis and the Khmer Rouge. In the hermetically sealed echo chamber between the Dem leadership, the mainstream US media, Hollywood, Ivy League ?intellectuals? and European sophisticates, the gulag cracks are utterly unexceptional. But, for a political party that keeps losing elections because it has less and less appeal outside a few coastal enclaves, Durbin?s remarks are devastating. The Democrats flopped in 2002 and 2004 because they were seen as incoherent on national security issues. Explicitly branding themselves as the ?terrorists? rights? party is unlikely to improve their chances for 2006.
Can anyone comment on why Moussad does not believe in torture?
Torture will not help us get reliable information and if the ‘enemy combatants’ have been there more than 12 months their information is out of date.
Gitmo should remain open but the torturing must come to an end and the US should allow independent inspections of Gitmo.
This is a perfect reason to stop torture:
Durbin made a mistake but I have yet to hear the right wingnut condem Santorum’s analogy that compared Democrats to Nazis.
Godwin’s Law should apply to both moronic parties in our government.
The real irony is not a single right wingnut has ever talked about Santorum’s ridiculous statement.
Durbin and Santorum are jack@$$es. F them!
Lets talk about Gitmo and the policy of torture that permeates our government.
This issue is so silly. Anyone who says we do not need a facility to indefinitly hold and interrogate these terrorists is either a fool or is lying to achieve political gain.
We know Durbin is playing politics. He is also playing you for a fool 100 meters. Think for yourself instead of using Al Frankens talking points.
As to your repeated claims that the US supplied Saddam Hussien, surely you must know that weapons we supplied his regime in the fight against Iran is a drop in the bucket compared to what the Soviets supplied.
Do you not understand these basic facts or are you being intentionally deceptive?
Either way it is quite tiresome.
[quote]GeneralLee wrote:
"Oy! you and B.B.'s faking is ridiculous (The only thing wrong is the a.c.-ha!) anyway my position was clear we should keep the place open, it is useful, it is needed, however a hardline needs to be taken on any public allegations of “torture”. You guys understand that terrorists attack us because of our policies right? So obviously a perception of torturing muslims policy is an american safety nightmare? "
Maybe assholes like Durbin and you should keep their mouths shut then about things that they know nothing about. If idiots wouldnt spout off their ill-gotten opinion, then the radical muslim world would lose a lot of their propaganda. Take a look at Al-Jazeera right now. they LOVE Durbin. I am sure he is proud of that.
If you dont think Gitmo is necessary and you feel sorry for people of Iraq and Afghanistan because the liberal press says that many innocent people are being rounded up, then you should go these countries yourslef. The majority of people in Iraq and Afghanistan want us there and know that the NEED us.
Gitmo os necessary. These people due not deserve due process and all the other things that we Americans do. they are enemy combatants. That means no lawyer, no nothing except some food and water. They have NO rights. Their rights were taken awayt he day that the decided to fuck with America.
Personally, I think after the prisoners have served their purpose for us, we should cut their heads off with a dull knife, just like good ol Al Queda does to us.
I wish I could love in the fantasy world that some of you people seem to be living in.
I could go on and on how the people that live their lives day in and day out and believe that idiots like Durbin are right, and the UN is a great institution, and we should be respectful of our enemy are living sheltered lives, but I wont. Just know that if these people ran our country we would surely fall. For more reasons than one and it makes me sick.
This reminds me of a great quote "“Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who’s gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom…You have the luxury of not knowing what I know…And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because, deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said “thank you” and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand at post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to.”
pretty much sums up my opinion of people like Dick Durbin, Hillart Clinton, et al.
[/quote]
After reading your post, I felt compelled to respond. Your problems seem to lie thousands of miles from Gitmo, Iraq, or Afghanistan. You seem to have little big man syndrome where you feel compelled to project your insecurities onto a larger object in order to pacify your feelings of inadequacy and low self esteem.
Really quoting Jack Nicholson from a movie? Were you picked on as a child? Are you still picked on by family or friends or coworkers?
You need to deal with these glaring self esteem issues to get some balance in life or not. If you choose to go on ranting with big machismo talk as if you were thirteen yrs. old.
Now here is an interesting post on the subject of U.S. interrogation techniques (which, again, are NOT torture):
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_06_19-2005_06_25.shtml#1119201773
[David Kopel, June 19, 2005 at 1:22pm] 3 Trackbacks / Possibly More Trackbacks
What Guantanamo is Really Like:
Senator Richard Durbin has been justly mocked for his statement about what an FBI agent reported seeing at Guantanamo:
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime ? Pol Pot or others ? that had no concern for human beings.”
The more plausible analogy to Guantanamo is British interrogation of Irish Republican Army suspects in the early 1970s. Then, the British extracted confessions through “the five techniques”: wall-standing, hooding, continuous noise, deprivation of food, and deprivation of sleep. The European Court of Human Rights ( http://www.lawofwar.org/Ireland_v_United_Kingdom.htm ), in the 1978 case Republic of Ireland v. United Kingdom, ruled that the techniques did not constitute “torture,” but were “inhuman and degrading,” in violation of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights ( European Convention on Human Rights and its Five Protocols ).
The European convention obviously does not apply to the American interrogation of Arab or Afghan terrorist suspects at a military base in Cuba, but there are still plausible objections that can be raised against coercive interrogations, even when the persons being interrogated are terrorists. Serious discussion about Guanatamo would be enhanced by looking to appropriate historical analogies (such as the U.K.'s self-defense in the 1970s against the I.R.A.), rather than to absurd analogies, such as those drawn by Senator Durbin, which trivialize the Holocaust, the Soviet genocide, and the Pol Pot genocide.
Look folks, I still see people bristling about the issue doing silly things with respect to argumentative tactics.
Whether or not somebody made claims that you feel are over the line, this doesn’t mean that everything must instead be rosy.
Whether or not someone else did something worse, this doesn’t make our wrongs okay.
Whether or not someone else supplied more arms to Saddam, this doesn’t excuse our own supply of arms for the purposes that Saddam put them to use.
If you are arguing the above lines, thinking it actually shows something, you are mistaken. What it shows is that you are not thinking clearly about the issue at all.
Whether or not Durbin overstated the issue with respect to language, this does not change whether or not any wrongdoing has indeed been done.
Let’s try to get past the schoolkid excuses and arguments and move on towards figuring out what is right and wrong and whether or not we should bother to act within those lines.
If not, then hell, why even bother arguing about any of this stuff? It is meaningless, just nuke the entire region and let the chips fall.
If so, then right and wrong do still matter, and we should attempt to figure out what is right and then take steps to ensure that those seeing action act accordingly.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Now here is an interesting post on the subject of U.S. interrogation techniques (which, again, are NOT torture):
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_06_19-2005_06_25.shtml#1119201773
[David Kopel, June 19, 2005 at 1:22pm] 3 Trackbacks / Possibly More Trackbacks
What Guantanamo is Really Like:
Senator Richard Durbin has been justly mocked for his statement about what an FBI agent reported seeing at Guantanamo:
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime ? Pol Pot or others ? that had no concern for human beings.”
The more plausible analogy to Guantanamo is British interrogation of Irish Republican Army suspects in the early 1970s. Then, the British extracted confessions through “the five techniques”: wall-standing, hooding, continuous noise, deprivation of food, and deprivation of sleep. The European Court of Human Rights ( http://www.lawofwar.org/Ireland_v_United_Kingdom.htm ), in the 1978 case Republic of Ireland v. United Kingdom, ruled that the techniques did not constitute “torture,” but were “inhuman and degrading,” in violation of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights ( European Convention on Human Rights and its Five Protocols ).
The European convention obviously does not apply to the American interrogation of Arab or Afghan terrorist suspects at a military base in Cuba, but there are still plausible objections that can be raised against coercive interrogations, even when the persons being interrogated are terrorists. Serious discussion about Guanatamo would be enhanced by looking to appropriate historical analogies (such as the U.K.'s self-defense in the 1970s against the I.R.A.), rather than to absurd analogies, such as those drawn by Senator Durbin, which trivialize the Holocaust, the Soviet genocide, and the Pol Pot genocide.
[/quote]
This is debunked already. “Torture techniques” are torture techniques no? The techniques described in various testimonials are the very definition of torture, and go far,far, beyond the trivial techniques mentioned above (obviously). And Durbin remains absolutely correct.
He read a true letter. Fact. Would you (a person) believe that the events described could have happened in the other places?. Yes.
The rest is pure fakery. Good for Durbin. Shame on the fakes.
[quote]100meters wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
Now here is an interesting post on the subject of U.S. interrogation techniques (which, again, are NOT torture):
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_06_19-2005_06_25.shtml#1119201773
[David Kopel, June 19, 2005 at 1:22pm] 3 Trackbacks / Possibly More Trackbacks
What Guantanamo is Really Like:
Senator Richard Durbin has been justly mocked for his statement about what an FBI agent reported seeing at Guantanamo:
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime ? Pol Pot or others ? that had no concern for human beings.”
The more plausible analogy to Guantanamo is British interrogation of Irish Republican Army suspects in the early 1970s. Then, the British extracted confessions through “the five techniques”: wall-standing, hooding, continuous noise, deprivation of food, and deprivation of sleep. The European Court of Human Rights ( http://www.lawofwar.org/Ireland_v_United_Kingdom.htm ), in the 1978 case Republic of Ireland v. United Kingdom, ruled that the techniques did not constitute “torture,” but were “inhuman and degrading,” in violation of Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights ( European Convention on Human Rights and its Five Protocols ).
The European convention obviously does not apply to the American interrogation of Arab or Afghan terrorist suspects at a military base in Cuba, but there are still plausible objections that can be raised against coercive interrogations, even when the persons being interrogated are terrorists. Serious discussion about Guanatamo would be enhanced by looking to appropriate historical analogies (such as the U.K.'s self-defense in the 1970s against the I.R.A.), rather than to absurd analogies, such as those drawn by Senator Durbin, which trivialize the Holocaust, the Soviet genocide, and the Pol Pot genocide.
This is debunked already. “Torture techniques” are torture techniques no? The techniques described in various testimonials are the very definition of torture, and go far,far, beyond the trivial techniques mentioned above (obviously). And Durbin remains absolutely correct.
He read a true letter. Fact. Would you (a person) believe that the events described could have happened in the other places?. Yes.
The rest is pure fakery. Good for Durbin. Shame on the fakes.[/quote]
How many have been killed at Gitmo?
How many have been starved to death?
How many have been permanently maimed?
How many have been experimented upon without anesthesia for medical purposes?
The answer to all of these questions is zero. They are things the Nazi’s and Soviets did to prisoners?
Durbin is wrong on all accounts other then he read someone else’s letter. The rest is all him.
Keep up the support though…please keep supporting him. Encourage other Dems to do the same. If that’s what you believe keep pushing it. Great idea for you guys. Hopefully Hillary will take up the cause too! Make it a plank at your next convention.
vroom
I believe the vast majority know right from wrong. There will always exist a portion of the public who wishes to not care. Some of those will fall into military life and some funnel to MP duty and prison guards. You can not judge an entire facility by the actions of such a small percentage. And no situation will be completely free of various violations.
I’m quite sure some wrongdoing has been done. To what degree, I doubt any of us will know the true magnitude. The haters will always argue up, and the powers will always argue to lessen the impact.
If we can only run operations that would expect 100% compliance we wouldn’t have any to run.
I would argue the existence of a place like Gitmo is warranted and useful. Abuse of power is unacceptable and needs to be dealt with openly and harshly to deterfuture events.
100 lumpys- learn how to read. Dumbo wasn’t worried about Gitmo. He could give two shits. He wanted to draw blood on a President of the opposite party that has been kicking his party ass where it counts, at the voting booth, and not in some stupid opinion polls. Clinton governed by them and boy oh boy, the left, oops, I mean the “center”, sure did well by him in the Oval Office, the Senate, the House, and at the state and local level all over the place Duh.
How dare you imply that the United States has higher, and therefore better, standards than most of the membership of the United Nations. That positively reeks of cultural imperialism, and as I was lectured by so many idiot lefties back in the day, that is a big suedo-bolshie nyet-nyet.
In fact why is the “center” comparing Gitmo to the gulag anyway? One as omniscient as you must remember what the leading lights of the “center” said about Solzhenitsyn when he exposed the gulag. Liar, fake , dupe,etc, etc. And now they want to damage Bush by comparing Gitmo to something they denied the existence of in the first place. They must think the “right” is as dumb as they are.
As the number two man in the imploding party of the Ass, also known as the something for nothing club, we can’t expect Dumbo to be too bright. We can, however, expect him to think that he is, and that his audience isn’t. Right on the money in your case. If one had read a little history, though, he might have found that Dumbo’s comparison was quite off base. Americans acting like they are running a concentration camp, a gulag or working for Pol Pot would have not had the FBI poking around in the first place and then finking to the public. The Geheim Staats Polizei might have paraded some guilible souls around a make-believe camp. The NKVD would have told a glowing-eyed useful idiot, someone just like you, what they wanted to hear and then shown them everything, but they wouldn’t believe it. The Gestapo would have maybe checked on the condition of the guards to make sure they were carrying out orders with sufficient zeal, and the NKVD with sufficient fear. Concern for the well-being of the prisoner would not have been a concern.
Your intrepid sleuth would have seen signs of exposure to the elements, not an overachieving air-conditioner, evidence of repeated and consistent beatings (broken bones), malnutrition, deliberately inflicted physical pain (like electric shock or cigarette burns) and rampant disase, to name a few things the left said never happened or weren’t done by their Uncle Joe’s ally Adolf, or more ideologically pure successor, Pol Pot. He would have run out of ink before he ran out of ways for the left to build a new type of man against his will.
The detainees would have been plucked out of domestic society to be re-educated, and have been singled out on account of ethnic, class, or educational status.
The detainee would have been forced to denounce his family, and maybe help in their execution.
The agent might have not even seen the poor sap in the first place because he would be out doing forced labor on a slow starvation diet.
We must all remember too, that this is all happening in a vacuum. Dubbya is having all of this done for fun. Those guys at Gitmo were randomly nabbed from Middle Eastern choir practice, and are to a man completely benign and extremely well behaved. They wouldn’t try to harm anybody, anywhere, over anything.
You are the standard issue lefty idiot, though, with the old American foreign policy cause thing. That is why some guy named Helmut tried to blow up my house the other day, and some Asian looking guys, one Korean maybe and the other Japanese, tried to do me in with some martial arts tricks, all the while complaining about American occupation of the homeland.
When the guy that beat Nixon by lying about the imaginary missle gap, about his failing health, about all of the ass he was getting (with the silent cooperation of the liberal press) went and spouted off about paying any price and bearing any burden, you lefties got all excited. When the reality set in during Vietnam, you got all pissy about shelling out the cash and carrying the load, and have been on permanent hissy fit status every since. That, and the fact that all of the liberal great society crap imploded as well. Reality, as pointed out by the WSJ editoral page, is something you apparently can’t handle.
The “center” has never had much of a problem with torture anyway. After all, you do have to break a few eggs to make an omlet, or so they said. They just get all indignant when they think that someone they don’t approve of, especially some dumb hick from flyover country who is outsmarting them politically and kicking their ass, gets to do it.
Disinformation- the opiate of the idiot wannabe psuedo-intellectual who thinks he ‘knows’ the truth, but is too stupid to see that how dumb he is.
As long as you realize I’m not judging the facility with my comments, then I can live with that.
However, whether or not there are violations is largely a measure of the “management” and measures put into place to ensure adherence.
Circumventing proper process should not be left as a simple casual endeavor. As MCKU I’m sure you’ve heard of “business process” standards.
C’mon Shrauper, I see where you are coming from, but you are going off the deep end with some of your statements.
Obviously the Gulag or Pol Pot comparisons are meant to be dramatic, but to imply that if we are not at the extent of the gulag or have a police state everything is just fine, is just as silly.
There are beginnings to everything and a current standard can erode anywhere even here in our great country. To think that it can’t is unrealistic.
We need people who will draw these comparisons not just blindly and smiling walk off the proverbial cliff.
Yeah right now it’ Middle Easterners what if it’s you for some reason ten yrs from now or your children?
Sometimes I wonder if the Gov. doesn’t keep an eye on Internet forums to keep a list of those wacky liberals who are a little too loud in the way they express their opposing views.
For gosh sakes you are an intelligent man, I think alot smarter then I am, can’t you see any of these points or are you so strictly holding allegiance to the right that anything questioning the right is totally and completely wrong?
[quote]vroom wrote:
You can not judge an entire facility by the actions of such a small percentage. And no situation will be completely free of various violations.
As long as you realize I’m not judging the facility with my comments, then I can live with that.
However, whether or not there are violations is largely a measure of the “management” and measures put into place to ensure adherence.
Circumventing proper process should not be left as a simple casual endeavor. As MCKU I’m sure you’ve heard of “business process” standards.[/quote]
Management can mandate proper behavior and acceptable standards. 100% compliance is the opperative issue. It ain’t gonna happen. How these transgressions are handled and what penalties are imposed will then draw a new line in the sand for the next person who contemplates his own agenda.
ps–why the condescending post? why the regurgitation of old nonsense? you can’t move forward if you’re gonna live in the past. Let’s move forward–please.
Sasquatch,
Management can do a hell of a lot more than issue some directives and hope they are adhered to…