[quote]four60 wrote:
NOW shotgun for home defense LIGHTS VS LASER what do you advise?[/quote]
I was looking at these early this morning on cheaperthandirt and was curious also.
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:
[quote]csulli wrote:
Was hoping for pics of scantily clad babes posing with guns and other weapons.
:([/quote]
I too was hoping that’s what this thread was. I shall resume my business elsewhere.[/quote]
srsly - how bout some pics of the OP naked holding her weapon? that would spice up this thread.[/quote]
~AHEM~[/quote]
Everyone else look away…this next post is only for Edgy…
ha!
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
NOW shotgun for home defense LIGHTS VS LASER what do you advise?[/quote]
I was looking at these early this morning on cheaperthandirt and was curious also.[/quote]
My recommendation is neither. A huge advantage you have on home is knowing the territory, where to hide, and suprise.
A laser or (epecially) a flashlight says “hey, look! I’m over here.”
Flashlights and lasers are for ATTACKERS (or counter-attackers like SWAT coming in to kill hostage takers) whose prescense is already announced and they are trying to get an edge on accurate shooting as they clear a house.
A homeowner should (counter) attack by ambush — go to ground (e.g., a bedroom behind a bed) – wait for the fucker to frame himself in the doorway – and kill him.
Home turf is a huge fucking advantage.
In both Afganistan and Iraq I countered this by chunking/shooting a grenade (either a flashbang or a fragmentation or both) to disrupt the room before I went in (preferably after I knocked about 3 tear gas grenades in there a minute earlier). This would disrupt the cover and give me the ability to clear the door before I got shot.
With the exception of the very rare drug raid on the border, that type of tactic is just not going to happen.
So, takeaway: you dont’ need or want a laser or light.
[quote]Alpha F wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
In Florida, you have Stand Your Ground. In Wisconsin, we have Castle Doctrine (thank you, Scott Walker!). Someone correct me I am wrong but we both have the right to defend ourselves with lethal force. In WI, you have to be in danger physically (or someone else in the house or business) but you cannot use the doctrine to protect property. I’m not entirely certain if I would be able to use this defense should a person try to run for the door after I have fired. I would think not but I’ll research that. Have you discovered your rights regarding that in Florida yet? [/quote]
Florida law allows for self-defense if you feel your life is threatened. The fact that someone was running for the door and therefore away from you instead of at you, eliminates that threat to life. On that fact, and most likely and specially if his back is to you, you are no longer acting in self-defense.
That is assuming he does not have a gun - as the intruder in Georgia.
Also, the scenario he has a gun but drops it and surrenders - do you hold him down at gun point and waits for the police?
Say he drops the gun and tries to run out the door unarmed: factually and legally I would assume ( anyone correct me if I am wrong ) the judge would interpret your life was no longer in danger and you may now be facing attempt to murder or battery charges.
I will now try to look for cases.
If he is running out with the gun, of course, threat to life remains present and you continue to fire.
For the criminals:
Florida has a law called 10-20-life. Anyone committing a crime with a gun gets ten years for just carrying a gun. 20 years if you take the gun out and life if you fire the gun.
I wonder if that affects criminal behavior here making them more likely to break in unarmed.
Somebody breaking in with a gun, I think I would not only empty the gun on him but the shotgun as well until he stopped moving.
The spear would be messier but would not eliminate that option if all else failed and I was cornered.
( I will post a video of said spear later. The Cold Steel owner cracks me up!)
Yes. Even if he was unarmed. A man is stronger than me and can subdue me and kill me with his bare hands - so he is a weapon. The gun is my equalizer on an unarmed male to female situation.
What about if it was an unarmed woman? what would you do and would the law view it differently? [quote]
I would given the circumstances in that link that you posted. If he had tracked her down in the home to that point, he isn’t robbing her. It would be safe to assume he would rape or kill her and/or her children. I’d have to ignore my womanly, compassionate side. If forensics determined that I had used excessive force, so be it, my family is safe so it was worth it. I mean, who is the victim here? [/quote]
I agree. A person who is willing to violate me is no longer my equal.
A predator is not equal to his prey.
And by that principle he lives or dies.
There are consequences for crossing other people’s boundaries and I assume if you are prepared to kill you are also accepting that you can die going for your kill.
They can file a law suit.
It can however be dismissed per-trial if you can prove the Stand Your Ground law applied, which it would if he broke in.
An attorney discusses the law: http://www.husseinandwebber.com/stand_your_ground.html
Sample form to dismiss civil case pre-trial: http://www.husseinandwebber.com/stand-your-ground-motion-immunity.html
[/quote]
That’s interesting about stand your ground - there is a little bit more wiggle room (for lack of a better term ATM).
One would think the 10-20-life sentencing would affect the number of armed occurrences. Especially since life in Florida is life.
You’re right to not take chances and I’d love to see your spear video! Hence the title of the thread. You wouldn’t have to travel far to see my inspiration. 
What can I say? You get me thinking in a good way. You’re a smart lady.
I couldn’t imagine being subject to a home invasion type of crime and then having to defend myself in court after defending myself in my home. Yes, there is a process that must be followed but my goodness. Hopefully all of these would end with immunity being granted.
edit After reading a little more about stand your ground, it appears to be castle law, however, it isn’t just limited to residence or any particular building. It applies to you wherever you may be.
I think I might have to write Scott Walker.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
NOW shotgun for home defense LIGHTS VS LASER what do you advise?[/quote]
I was looking at these early this morning on cheaperthandirt and was curious also.[/quote]
HA, seems my questions get the boot. But me and my crew debate over this nonstop. I have on on my AR15 and my Mossberg 500 but do not want them on my pistols. The biggest gripes I hear are about giving away your position in a dark house but this comes from guys who profession has them clearing spaces and rooms, not stationary avoiding danger
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
NOW shotgun for home defense LIGHTS VS LASER what do you advise?[/quote]
I was looking at these early this morning on cheaperthandirt and was curious also.[/quote]
HA, seems my questions get the boot. But me and my crew debate over this nonstop. I have on on my AR15 and my Mossberg 500 but do not want them on my pistols. The biggest gripes I hear are about giving away your position in a dark house but this comes from guys who profession has them clearing spaces and rooms, not stationary avoiding danger[/quote]
Correct. Those are for mobile folks working in a team. NOT defenders.
[quote]Alpha F wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
Oh boy, that’s a tough one. It’s so hard to say but we’re dealing in hypothetical so - what would affect my decision to shoot? Whether or not I could see his hands and if they were empty or not. Also, a martial arts background has taught me to quickly scan my surroundings for opposing threats (is there anything within reach for him that he could use to harm me). Also, the distance between us at the time would matter. I don’t want him close to me, ever. Did he appear to be on drugs or impaired? I think I would try to force him to leave if it were possible but if not, I would make sure I was safe. I think this is going back to women being compassionate and not wanting to hurt people. In cases like this, it could cost you.
That one was hard as I have a teenage boy so it’s close to home. We actually had a case like this in my state a year ago although the boy was 20.
How do you think you would deal with that?[/quote]
Same reaction as you above. However, my compassion has somehow diminished today as I was reminded of the not so few cases of absolutely ruthless teenagers ( including women who kill their own children ).
Whilst it is not my place to judge another man’s heart and whether he or she is worthless, I am reminded some youth are deeply damaged and have no respect for life and will stop at nothing.
I guess the clue is if I sensed he was defiant or if he is feeling cornered and trying to find a way out to escape.
If a am between him and the door I might open the way and talk him to get out of my house whilst always pointing the gun at him.
I am inclined to think that if there is enough distance and no objects he might grab against me ( I would tell him in no uncertain terms I will shoot him if he moved in any direction rather than the exit.)
I guess I might take a risk and try and talk him out whereas if it is a grown man: not a chance.
I found this case of a teenager but the circumstances are that he didn’t even break into the house and did try to escape:
It is more this kind of teenager I was thinking of.
[/quote]
This is true. My childhood friend’s mother worked in a home for troubled youth and those children were dangerous and you couldn’t turn your backs on them for a second. Some of them were more capable of horrendous crime than many adult cases I have read and followed.
The case that you posted was a little different than what I had been thinking…although I don’t know all of the facts, I would say that based on what I know, I probably wouldn’t have shot him. If he’s already halfway over the fence trying to get away from me, I don’t know. Then again, who’s to say that he won’t come back another time or that he won’t seek revenge on me later on?
We had two different, yet similar cases here recently:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
[quote]four60 wrote:
NOW shotgun for home defense LIGHTS VS LASER what do you advise?[/quote]
I was looking at these early this morning on cheaperthandirt and was curious also.[/quote]
My recommendation is neither. A huge advantage you have on home is knowing the territory, where to hide, and suprise.
A laser or (epecially) a flashlight says “hey, look! I’m over here.”
Flashlights and lasers are for ATTACKERS (or counter-attackers like SWAT coming in to kill hostage takers) whose prescense is already announced and they are trying to get an edge on accurate shooting as they clear a house.
A homeowner should (counter) attack by ambush — go to ground (e.g., a bedroom behind a bed) – wait for the fucker to frame himself in the doorway – and kill him.
Home turf is a huge fucking advantage.
In both Afganistan and Iraq I countered this by chunking/shooting a grenade (either a flashbang or a fragmentation or both) to disrupt the room before I went in (preferably after I knocked about 3 tear gas grenades in there a minute earlier). This would disrupt the cover and give me the ability to clear the door before I got shot.
With the exception of the very rare drug raid on the border, that type of tactic is just not going to happen.
So, takeaway: you dont’ need or want a laser or light.[/quote]
Makes perfect sense. You really would have the advantage. I had failed to look at it that way.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
If you could choose, say your top three, what would you suggest would be best for a woman for home defense? [/quote]
A shotgun of some sort. I bought my fiance a 12 g Benelli Supernova tactical and put on a two round magazine extender made by Nordic, for a total of 6+1 rounds. (She keeps the chamber empty, so it’s 6.)
I put in 2 3/4 000 buck and we went to the ranch a couple of time to shoot pumpkins. Very easy to use, foolproof if you rack it with authority, and you can leave it loaded and chambered and passing children couldn’t just shoot it.
She also has her concealed carry and carries a Beretta Cheeta .380 with 14 rounds in her purse. I like it because of the number of rounds and the manual safety. .380 is a pretty wimpy round, but she has issues with recoil and the Hornady Critical Defense packs a punch even in such a little bullet. The Cheeta is on the larger size for a .380, which also helps recoil.
To stop the threat. Just because an attacker is temporaily retreating doesn’t mean squat. Typically, they are running for cover or another weapon. I shot plenty of haji in the back or while they were picking their nose or scratching their dick. Cowboy crap is for movies.[/quote]
Thank you for those recommendations. I think I’ll take a peek into my father-in-laws safe again to see if he’s got that one. He’s got so many that it’s hard for me to remember all of them.
You are right about the temporary retreat. I shouldn’t second guess myself. That is a woman’s biggest downfall, IMO. You would certainly know more than I under those circumstances. [/quote]
Like I tell my wife, if someone breaks in I’m shooting first and asking questions later. I’d rather she see me in cuffs at court than the morgue. The opposite is true for me as well. [/quote]
My husband would, no doubt, see it the same way.
[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
In response to batman’s post, one thing jumps out at me right away and that’s firing through the door. How do SWAT teams determine it’s safe to do so? In other words, what if someone else (other than your intruder) is on the other side of the door?
Like another family member, neighbor or emergency help? I’m seeing merit to this but I also think it may cause one (especially female) to hesitate and become a vitcim. I really don’t know and am asking as this is a subject that has been on my mind quite a bit in recent months.[/quote]
SWAT member here (runs in the family dad was SWAT too) – we rarely if ever shoot through doors. That’s some BS you see on TV and in action films.[/quote]
Gettnitdone wrote:
"Wait, so just because this cop gave some shoes to a bum on the side of the road, I SHOULDN’T shell him if he tries to discriminate against one of my homies?
Fuck that.
I’m letting my gat pop - ‘cuse it’s 1-8-7 on any motherfuckin’ cop."
So you’re on a team, but you post shit like this?
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
ha![/quote]
eewwwwww -
I guess I asked for that… (sigh)
Reminder to Self:
Don’t ignore Jackie_Jacked’s warnings.
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
ha![/quote]
eewwwwww -
I guess I asked for that… (sigh)[/quote]
Fucking Ginger Vikings…Happy now my eyes are bleeding again. Don’t you have a country to pillage?
Good for her, she should have saved one for his head after she opened the door.
[quote]batman730 wrote:<<< the guy persists to try to kick down the door. >>>[/quote]Or shoot through the door himself to eliminate the threat. These situations really suck and everybody does the best they can if ever in them. Training and preparation are very important, but won’t prepare anybody for every eventuality. I was once in a situation where I believed I may have had to draw down on somebody in a home defense scenario in the middle of the night. I keep a Winchester 1300 defender 12 gauge. My heart was pounding and my hands were trembling. All the talk goes out the window when it’s real. That’s not to you personally btw.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
The case that you posted was a little different than what I had been thinking…although I don’t know all of the facts, I would say that based on what I know, I probably wouldn’t have shot him. If he’s already halfway over the fence trying to get away from me, I don’t know. Then again, who’s to say that he won’t come back another time or that he won’t seek revenge on me later on? [/quote]
Had this discussion with my husband a month ago.
I was discussing rape in PWI and I did bring up to my husband the revenge issue ( also applies for revenge through opportunism where I will be paying financially to both criminals; lawyer and intruder ).
I understand your concerns as a woman completely.
Specially if you work at/from home and is the one most likely to suffer the violation in the absence of your husband.
Add a young child to that equation and yes, I am with you on the “what if he comes back and I have to go through this with a better prepared aggressor?”.
But my husband’s reaction to me and to your post was the same: “You cannot shoot somebody on the assumption of revenge.” Or, in other words: the law is not going to favor you if you shoot somebody to eliminate a possible threat to life in the future.
It makes sense for both, I think: Our fears of revenge and the legal argument that this does not constitute a threat to life.
My husband understood our feelings and only spoke from a legal point of view.
If you are ever in that situation, would this be possible alternative if your conscience and personality permit:
The way to legally eliminate the threat completely is to stand your ground ( literally ) behind the door he is trying to break in ( say 20 feet away from it? ) and shoot as he breaks in?
If you have what it takes to do this, this is the only way I can see the law not incriminating you for wanting to eliminate ( future ) threat to your life in the present, or whatever they legally call it.
Remember also it helps if you are the first to call 911. It will help your case.
It is sad to say but I am now more concerned about the judicial system than the physical threat to my life.
And how ironic we have to guard ourselves against both threats to our freedom and security, from our protectors and from our attackers.
When the sheep becomes a wolf in sheep’s clothing who can you trust but yourself, right?
[quote]
We had two different, yet similar cases here recently:
http://www.startribune.com/local/148402995.html?refer=y[/quote]
Very sad to see the focus of citizen security become an issue of Republican x Democrat.
Want to share this with you as a trivia on this fact :
When researching the Stand Your Ground Law, I read that it used to be just common sense here in Florida that one was allowed to defend one’s self against threat to life without having to retreat.
It was only after people started migrating here form the North and bringing their lawyers with them, that it had to be made into a “law”, to protect the regional customs and way of life.
So it may boil down to one group of people moving into an area and believing their ways are superior ( even if it flies in the face of common sense in the presence of evidence to the contrary ) to the local beliefs and way of life.
By all means write to Sky Walker and hope that the force will be strong with him on this one - because you are going to need it.
The current “civilized” trend is to go softer on and more rights to protect criminals: I have already lived through this in England.
The system is a joke; even police officers have little authority over criminals.
As far as the stranger in the backyard goes, I would call 911 a.s.a.p. then have shotgun, pistol and spear ready. I would not go outside to shoot somebody, specially in the dark and more importantly with an infant in the home that is completely dependent on my surviving and coming back for him/her.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I couldn’t imagine being subject to a home invasion type of crime and then having to defend myself in court after defending myself in my home. Yes, there is a process that must be followed but my goodness. Hopefully all of these would end with immunity being granted. [/quote]
You cannot rely on hope. Absolutely know exactly where you stand in the law regarding firearms.
The consequences and the price you pay for a mistake that will land you either with a massive financial loss or jail are dire enough for you to make up your mind as to how you will act should an emergency occur.
I absolutely empathize with your sentiments on " imagine being subject to a home invasion and then having to defend myself in court" for defending ourselves and our children in our homes.
I have mentioned before this is the worst part for me actually, that I have also to be examined as a criminal. The system faults where it only allows for a bipolar view of its society where there must be an aggressor and a victim allowing only for the state police force to have absolute power to act in the role of protector.
It seems to me that the moment you are acting in your natural right to self-protect and therefore self-defend, you no longer qualify for the role of the victim and therefore need to be examined as a possible aggressor as the power play changes and the criminal is now filling the role of the victim and that leads to your right to self-defend to be questioned.
The judicial system bipolar thinking.
It is a twisted but linear and immature kind of mentality. [quote]
edit After reading a little more about stand your ground, it appears to be castle law, however, it isn’t just limited to residence or any particular building. It applies to you wherever you may be.
[/quote]
More complex when applied everywhere: ask Zimmerman.
[quote]four60 wrote:
[quote]Edgy wrote:
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
ha![/quote]
eewwwwww -
I guess I asked for that… (sigh)[/quote]
Fucking Ginger Vikings…Happy now my eyes are bleeding again. Don’t you have a country to pillage?
[/quote]
yeah, sorry 460 - my bad.
[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I am sure that you both are most correct. My husband explained the virtues of shotguns to me also. My reasoning, and I don’t know if it’s foolish or not, is that I wanted something I could essentially operate with one hand if need be because I would be petrified to put my daughter down.
[/quote]
How old is your little girl?
Have you practiced with one hand at all?
That is a very high goal to aim for ( pun intended ), no?
I would imagine with the adrenal system pumping your CNS will be intensely fired up and make you more likely to miss.
Good thing you have a mag with 17 rounds!