Girls with Guns... and Sometimes Spears

Off Topic
41

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
I had to include batman730’s post from that thread also as he always contributes meaningful and insightful thoughts.

When I read Batman’s post yesterday I was instinctively saying no no to shooting through the door.

The problems I have with that are:

I need to see the target.
Jackie I have a question for you on that:

What if the intruder was a 140lb teenage boy, unarmed, who made a mistake in thinking the house was empty.
You look at him and he is nervous, counter-phobic, or ready to run not to attack.
Would that affect your decision to shoot?
Would you try to get him to leave the house at gun point to spare his life?

How likely in this country is for the intruder to be a teenager?

The shooting through the door scenario also makes me a prisoner in a confined space in an unknown situation and I am again abiding in a victim mentality waiting to be rescued by the police whenever they get there.

Overall, the shooting through the door just did not seem wise to me.

By the way, batman, the comments are welcome and I hope we all get to explore the psychology of shooting for women, specially if having children.

If I saw my target was an insecure teenage boy I admit a part of me might feel “he could be my child”.
Maybe not.

Then if he is 6"0 tall and I feel overpowered not so much.
[/quote]

Oh boy, that’s a tough one. It’s so hard to say but we’re dealing in hypothetical so - what would affect my decision to shoot? Whether or not I could see his hands and if they were empty or not. Also, a martial arts background has taught me to quickly scan my surroundings for opposing threats (is there anything within reach for him that he could use to harm me). Also, the distance between us at the time would matter. I don’t want him close to me, ever. Did he appear to be on drugs or impaired? I think I would try to force him to leave if it were possible but if not, I would make sure I was safe. I think this is going back to women being compassionate and not wanting to hurt people. In cases like this, it could cost you.

That one was hard as I have a teenage boy so it’s close to home. We actually had a case like this in my state a year ago although the boy was 20.

How do you think you would deal with that?

42

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:
That’s some BS you see on TV and in action films.[/quote]

That’s what I was thinking too. Not only do you not know exactly where the target is you don’t know who the target is. I would hate to shoot someone I didn’t intend to. Don’t forget doors are hollow so if you miss your target the round travels and could end up going through a wall and hitting an unintended target. There’s too many unknowns when firing at something you can’t see.

james

43

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
If you can fire once, you can empty the pistol, and should.

Pistols are really, really, weak weapons.

Clink on this link for an article by the FBI on why pistols suck compared to a rifle.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=FBI+wounding+factors&FORM=IE8SRC

In Afganistan, we would rotate who was point going into a house or a cave. Point always got the shotgun to do the door breach (in addition to the M4 or whatever that went on your back).

After I left, they got this super-cool combo-shotgun/M4.
[/quote]

Thank you for posting. I have spent some time reading some of the material in those links and, wow, just the human target section in the first link is scary.

If you could choose, say your top three, what would you suggest would be best for a woman for home defense? My niece’s husband is a Ranger and I’ll ask him this when he returns also (he is currently deployed).

One more question, if you have time. In the above scenario that Alpha mentioned, what would you tell a woman to do in that case?

That link has provided a lot of useful info; thank you.

44

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
This may be useful:

Very useful! I learned a great deal.

45

[quote]Gettnitdone wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:
In response to batman’s post, one thing jumps out at me right away and that’s firing through the door. How do SWAT teams determine it’s safe to do so? In other words, what if someone else (other than your intruder) is on the other side of the door?

Like another family member, neighbor or emergency help? I’m seeing merit to this but I also think it may cause one (especially female) to hesitate and become a vitcim. I really don’t know and am asking as this is a subject that has been on my mind quite a bit in recent months.[/quote]

SWAT member here (runs in the family dad was SWAT too) – we rarely if ever shoot through doors. That’s some BS you see on TV and in action films.[/quote]

Thanks for contributing. I was certain we had to have at least one around here. Please feel free to interject at any point.

46

[quote]debraD wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

Melinda Herman told police she started shooting the man when he opened the door to the crawl space. The man pleaded with her to stop, but she kept firing until she had emptied her rounds, she told police. She then fled to a neighbor’s house with her children.

[/quote]

It was this part here that I had the most trouble with.

He pleaded with her to stop but she kept firing.

Was it wise on her part to reveal that detail? Could a jury turn against her on the grounds he was now the victim?

My concern is that a man against a woman; he can try to fool her by saying things to appeal to her compassion and then subdue her. So I would say she was justified to keep shooting at him because the threat remained even thought he “pleaded with her”. But how does this play out legally?

If he had put his hands up and said don’t shot I will leave, does anyone know if she was legally supposed to stop and allow him to scape, or whether she is still legally in the right to shot to kill?

I know that if his back is turned to you and he is running out of the house you are not legally allowed to shoot him anymore.
[/quote]

Even in gun-hating Canada I don’t think that would matter. A man in your home is a threat and you must end the threat. Probably not wise to mention it but if it’s the truth it’s the truth I suppose.[/quote]

I’d be inclined to agree with that. They really do hate guns there, don’t they? More of a fear, really.

47

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Alright, I am regretting the shoot through the door comment. I fear I may have run my mouth without fully engaging my brain. However my thought process was this: my wife and daughter are barricaded in a locked room behind the bed and an intruder tries to open the door. My wife loudly announces “I have a gun and I’ll shoot you if you come in here”. She has relinquished the element of surprise and given away her location, but this should dissuade a burglar who is not looking for a confrontation, which is the most likely scenario. Instead of leaving, the guy persists to try to kick down the door. I can see a benefit (if she is certain of her backdrop) to her firing 2-3 through the door where a person is likely to be, as opposed to waiting until the door gives way and she finds that, shit, she forgot to rack a round because she was in such a panic to get the kids, or shit, she has a malfunction, or shit, there’s more than one bad guy, or shit, she hits the guy but it doesn’t stop him, or whatever else goes wrong in a close quarter gun fight. This is not optimal, of course, and I would feel better if she could see her target and surroundings and had sight picture (which is itself unlikely under stress) and visual confirmation of the threat etc, but I also feel good about her maintaining control of the space and IMO, the intact or semi-intact door helps her to do that.

I also think it’s likely that shots being fired will cause the bad guy to get out of Dodge even if they miss, although I would prefer that they hit. Furthermore, I am alright with her assuming that someone who is trying to kick down her bedroom door after she has announced herself is determined to do her harm to do her poses a credible threat to both her and or daughter. There are potential legal problems here, I realize.

I’m not saying I’m right, I was just explaining my thinking. Like I said, I kinda wish I’d kept my mouth shut. If I was talking out my arse (which is highly likely), I apologize.
[/quote]

Nooooo! No matter, I ALWAYS enjoy your posts. They are thought-provoking and full of reason and analytical as it gets. No censoring allowed. :slight_smile: Besides, I talk out my arse way more than you and it hasn’t deterred me.

48

I have missed a few but I’ll be back. Looking forward to seeing some more. There has already been so much posted that I have found useful and it’s not even the tip of the ice burg.

49

[quote]Edgy wrote:

[quote]Ripsaw3689 wrote:

[quote]csulli wrote:
Was hoping for pics of scantily clad babes posing with guns and other weapons.

:([/quote]

I too was hoping that’s what this thread was. I shall resume my business elsewhere.[/quote]

srsly - how bout some pics of the OP naked holding her weapon? that would spice up this thread.[/quote]

~AHEM~

50

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

If you could choose, say your top three, what would you suggest would be best for a woman for home defense? [/quote]

A shotgun of some sort. I bought my fiance a 12 g Benelli Supernova tactical and put on a two round magazine extender made by Nordic, for a total of 6+1 rounds. (She keeps the chamber empty, so it’s 6.)

I put in 2 3/4 000 buck and we went to the ranch a couple of time to shoot pumpkins. Very easy to use, foolproof if you rack it with authority, and you can leave it loaded and chambered and passing children couldn’t just shoot it.

She also has her concealed carry and carries a Beretta Cheeta .380 with 14 rounds in her purse. I like it because of the number of rounds and the manual safety. .380 is a pretty wimpy round, but she has issues with recoil and the Hornady Critical Defense packs a punch even in such a little bullet. The Cheeta is on the larger size for a .380, which also helps recoil.

To stop the threat. Just because an attacker is temporaily retreating doesn’t mean squat. Typically, they are running for cover or another weapon. I shot plenty of haji in the back or while they were picking their nose or scratching their dick. Cowboy crap is for movies.

51

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Alright, I am regretting the shoot through the door comment. I fear I may have run my mouth without fully engaging my brain. However my thought process was this: my wife and daughter are barricaded in a locked room behind the bed and an intruder tries to open the door. My wife loudly announces “I have a gun and I’ll shoot you if you come in here”. She has relinquished the element of surprise and given away her location, but this should dissuade a burglar who is not looking for a confrontation, which is the most likely scenario. Instead of leaving, the guy persists to try to kick down the door. I can see a benefit (if she is certain of her backdrop) to her firing 2-3 through the door where a person is likely to be, as opposed to waiting until the door gives way and she finds that, shit, she forgot to rack a round because she was in such a panic to get the kids, or shit, she has a malfunction, or shit, there’s more than one bad guy, or shit, she hits the guy but it doesn’t stop him, or whatever else goes wrong in a close quarter gun fight. This is not optimal, of course, and I would feel better if she could see her target and surroundings and had sight picture (which is itself unlikely under stress) and visual confirmation of the threat etc, but I also feel good about her maintaining control of the space and IMO, the intact or semi-intact door helps her to do that.

I also think it’s likely that shots being fired will cause the bad guy to get out of Dodge even if they miss, although I would prefer that they hit. Furthermore, I am alright with her assuming that someone who is trying to kick down her bedroom door after she has announced herself is determined to do her harm to do her poses a credible threat to both her and or daughter. There are potential legal problems here, I realize.

I’m not saying I’m right, I was just explaining my thinking. Like I said, I kinda wish I’d kept my mouth shut. If I was talking out my arse (which is highly likely), I apologize.
[/quote]

I thought it was excellent you did not hold back.
Not only do we have a chance to see how we individually react to each scenario, we get that scenario challenged by others and learn the reasons behind our gut reactions.

I did think maybe you were trying to use the closed door as a replacement for your wanting to be there and protect them by being a door between your wife and daughter and danger.
Perhaps it was a man’s way of wanting to still be a protector even when absent - I don’t know.

Regardless, your male protective instinct for your wife and child has very strongly come across and they are be lucky to have you.

52

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

A shotgun of some sort. I bought my fiance a 12 g Benelli Supernova tactical and put on a two round magazine extender made by Nordic, for a total of 6+1 rounds. (She keeps the chamber empty, so it’s 6.)[/quote]

I would argue that a shotgun is the best home defense weapon for a man or a woman. In the heat of the moment it’s an easy weapon to fire and the shot is much less likely to go through walls and potentially hurt someone you don’t intend to.

james

53

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

A shotgun of some sort. I bought my fiance a 12 g Benelli Supernova tactical and put on a two round magazine extender made by Nordic, for a total of 6+1 rounds. (She keeps the chamber empty, so it’s 6.)[/quote]

I would argue that a shotgun is the best home defense weapon for a man or a woman. In the heat of the moment it’s an easy weapon to fire and the shot is much less likely to go through walls and potentially hurt someone you don’t intend to.

james
[/quote]

It’s hard for me to narrow down the best all around for a woman in Home defense cases. But I guess I’ll agree if we must pick something over a Pistol I will say a shotgun gives you more options and variations than anything else. (For other reasons I’ll pick a glock pic your own caliber)

54

NOW shotgun for home defense LIGHTS VS LASER what do you advise?

55

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

In Florida, you have Stand Your Ground. In Wisconsin, we have Castle Doctrine (thank you, Scott Walker!). Someone correct me I am wrong but we both have the right to defend ourselves with lethal force. In WI, you have to be in danger physically (or someone else in the house or business) but you cannot use the doctrine to protect property. I’m not entirely certain if I would be able to use this defense should a person try to run for the door after I have fired. I would think not but I’ll research that. Have you discovered your rights regarding that in Florida yet? [/quote]

Florida law allows for self-defense if you feel your life is threatened. The fact that someone was running for the door and therefore away from you instead of at you, eliminates that threat to life. On that fact, and most likely and specially if his back is to you, you are no longer acting in self-defense.
That is assuming he does not have a gun - as the intruder in Georgia.

Also, the scenario he has a gun but drops it and surrenders - do you hold him down at gun point and waits for the police?

Say he drops the gun and tries to run out the door unarmed: factually and legally I would assume ( anyone correct me if I am wrong ) the judge would interpret your life was no longer in danger and you may now be facing attempt to murder or battery charges.
I will now try to look for cases.
If he is running out with the gun, of course, threat to life remains present and you continue to fire.

For the criminals:
Florida has a law called 10-20-life. Anyone committing a crime with a gun gets ten years for just carrying a gun. 20 years if you take the gun out and life if you fire the gun.

I wonder if that affects criminal behavior here making them more likely to break in unarmed.

Somebody breaking in with a gun, I think I would not only empty the gun on him but the shotgun as well until he stopped moving.
The spear would be messier but would not eliminate that option if all else failed and I was cornered.

( I will post a video of said spear later. The Cold Steel owner cracks me up!)

Yes. Even if he was unarmed. A man is stronger than me and can subdue me and kill me with his bare hands - so he is a weapon. The gun is my equalizer on an unarmed male to female situation.

What about if it was an unarmed woman? what would you do and would the law view it differently? [quote]

I would given the circumstances in that link that you posted. If he had tracked her down in the home to that point, he isn’t robbing her. It would be safe to assume he would rape or kill her and/or her children. I’d have to ignore my womanly, compassionate side. If forensics determined that I had used excessive force, so be it, my family is safe so it was worth it. I mean, who is the victim here? [/quote]

I agree. A person who is willing to violate me is no longer my equal.

A predator is not equal to his prey.
And by that principle he lives or dies.

There are consequences for crossing other people’s boundaries and I assume if you are prepared to kill you are also accepting that you can die going for your kill.

They can file a law suit.
It can however be dismissed per-trial if you can prove the Stand Your Ground law applied, which it would if he broke in.

An attorney discusses the law: http://www.husseinandwebber.com/stand_your_ground.html

Sample form to dismiss civil case pre-trial: http://www.husseinandwebber.com/stand-your-ground-motion-immunity.html

56

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

Oh boy, that’s a tough one. It’s so hard to say but we’re dealing in hypothetical so - what would affect my decision to shoot? Whether or not I could see his hands and if they were empty or not. Also, a martial arts background has taught me to quickly scan my surroundings for opposing threats (is there anything within reach for him that he could use to harm me). Also, the distance between us at the time would matter. I don’t want him close to me, ever. Did he appear to be on drugs or impaired? I think I would try to force him to leave if it were possible but if not, I would make sure I was safe. I think this is going back to women being compassionate and not wanting to hurt people. In cases like this, it could cost you.

That one was hard as I have a teenage boy so it’s close to home. We actually had a case like this in my state a year ago although the boy was 20.

How do you think you would deal with that?[/quote]

Same reaction as you above. However, my compassion has somehow diminished today as I was reminded of the not so few cases of absolutely ruthless teenagers ( including women who kill their own children ).
Whilst it is not my place to judge another man’s heart and whether he or she is worthless, I am reminded some youth are deeply damaged and have no respect for life and will stop at nothing.

I guess the clue is if I sensed he was defiant or if he is feeling cornered and trying to find a way out to escape.
If a am between him and the door I might open the way and talk him to get out of my house whilst always pointing the gun at him.

I am inclined to think that if there is enough distance and no objects he might grab against me ( I would tell him in no uncertain terms I will shoot him if he moved in any direction rather than the exit.)

I guess I might take a risk and try and talk him out whereas if it is a grown man: not a chance.

I found this case of a teenager but the circumstances are that he didn’t even break into the house and did try to escape:

It is more this kind of teenager I was thinking of.

57

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

If you could choose, say your top three, what would you suggest would be best for a woman for home defense? [/quote]

A shotgun of some sort. I bought my fiance a 12 g Benelli Supernova tactical and put on a two round magazine extender made by Nordic, for a total of 6+1 rounds. (She keeps the chamber empty, so it’s 6.)

I put in 2 3/4 000 buck and we went to the ranch a couple of time to shoot pumpkins. Very easy to use, foolproof if you rack it with authority, and you can leave it loaded and chambered and passing children couldn’t just shoot it.

She also has her concealed carry and carries a Beretta Cheeta .380 with 14 rounds in her purse. I like it because of the number of rounds and the manual safety. .380 is a pretty wimpy round, but she has issues with recoil and the Hornady Critical Defense packs a punch even in such a little bullet. The Cheeta is on the larger size for a .380, which also helps recoil.

To stop the threat. Just because an attacker is temporaily retreating doesn’t mean squat. Typically, they are running for cover or another weapon. I shot plenty of haji in the back or while they were picking their nose or scratching their dick. Cowboy crap is for movies.[/quote]

Thank you for those recommendations. I think I’ll take a peek into my father-in-laws safe again to see if he’s got that one. He’s got so many that it’s hard for me to remember all of them.

You are right about the temporary retreat. I shouldn’t second guess myself. That is a woman’s biggest downfall, IMO. You would certainly know more than I under those circumstances.

58

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
Alright, I am regretting the shoot through the door comment. I fear I may have run my mouth without fully engaging my brain. However my thought process was this: my wife and daughter are barricaded in a locked room behind the bed and an intruder tries to open the door. My wife loudly announces “I have a gun and I’ll shoot you if you come in here”. She has relinquished the element of surprise and given away her location, but this should dissuade a burglar who is not looking for a confrontation, which is the most likely scenario. Instead of leaving, the guy persists to try to kick down the door. I can see a benefit (if she is certain of her backdrop) to her firing 2-3 through the door where a person is likely to be, as opposed to waiting until the door gives way and she finds that, shit, she forgot to rack a round because she was in such a panic to get the kids, or shit, she has a malfunction, or shit, there’s more than one bad guy, or shit, she hits the guy but it doesn’t stop him, or whatever else goes wrong in a close quarter gun fight. This is not optimal, of course, and I would feel better if she could see her target and surroundings and had sight picture (which is itself unlikely under stress) and visual confirmation of the threat etc, but I also feel good about her maintaining control of the space and IMO, the intact or semi-intact door helps her to do that.

I also think it’s likely that shots being fired will cause the bad guy to get out of Dodge even if they miss, although I would prefer that they hit. Furthermore, I am alright with her assuming that someone who is trying to kick down her bedroom door after she has announced herself is determined to do her harm to do her poses a credible threat to both her and or daughter. There are potential legal problems here, I realize.

I’m not saying I’m right, I was just explaining my thinking. Like I said, I kinda wish I’d kept my mouth shut. If I was talking out my arse (which is highly likely), I apologize.
[/quote]

I thought it was excellent you did not hold back.
Not only do we have a chance to see how we individually react to each scenario, we get that scenario challenged by others and learn the reasons behind our gut reactions.

I did think maybe you were trying to use the closed door as a replacement for your wanting to be there and protect them by being a door between your wife and daughter and danger.
Perhaps it was a man’s way of wanting to still be a protector even when absent - I don’t know.

Regardless, your male protective instinct for your wife and child has very strongly come across and they are be lucky to have you.

[/quote]

Absolutely!

Interesting take on that post and I’m sure that you’re most accurate. He’s a good guy.

59

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

A shotgun of some sort. I bought my fiance a 12 g Benelli Supernova tactical and put on a two round magazine extender made by Nordic, for a total of 6+1 rounds. (She keeps the chamber empty, so it’s 6.)[/quote]

I would argue that a shotgun is the best home defense weapon for a man or a woman. In the heat of the moment it’s an easy weapon to fire and the shot is much less likely to go through walls and potentially hurt someone you don’t intend to.

james
[/quote]

I am sure that you both are most correct. My husband explained the virtues of shotguns to me also. My reasoning, and I don’t know if it’s foolish or not, is that I wanted something I could essentially operate with one hand if need be because I would be petrified to put my daughter down.

60

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]Jackie_Jacked wrote:

If you could choose, say your top three, what would you suggest would be best for a woman for home defense? [/quote]

A shotgun of some sort. I bought my fiance a 12 g Benelli Supernova tactical and put on a two round magazine extender made by Nordic, for a total of 6+1 rounds. (She keeps the chamber empty, so it’s 6.)

I put in 2 3/4 000 buck and we went to the ranch a couple of time to shoot pumpkins. Very easy to use, foolproof if you rack it with authority, and you can leave it loaded and chambered and passing children couldn’t just shoot it.

She also has her concealed carry and carries a Beretta Cheeta .380 with 14 rounds in her purse. I like it because of the number of rounds and the manual safety. .380 is a pretty wimpy round, but she has issues with recoil and the Hornady Critical Defense packs a punch even in such a little bullet. The Cheeta is on the larger size for a .380, which also helps recoil.

To stop the threat. Just because an attacker is temporaily retreating doesn’t mean squat. Typically, they are running for cover or another weapon. I shot plenty of haji in the back or while they were picking their nose or scratching their dick. Cowboy crap is for movies.[/quote]

Thank you for those recommendations. I think I’ll take a peek into my father-in-laws safe again to see if he’s got that one. He’s got so many that it’s hard for me to remember all of them.

You are right about the temporary retreat. I shouldn’t second guess myself. That is a woman’s biggest downfall, IMO. You would certainly know more than I under those circumstances. [/quote]

Like I tell my wife, if someone breaks in I’m shooting first and asking questions later. I’d rather she see me in cuffs at court than the morgue. The opposite is true for me as well.