Hey Coach,
thank you very much for all your great articles, they are such an amazing mine of information…
I was just wondering what your take is on German Volume Training?
I know this is kind of a vague question, but I would love to hear your thoughts, since you consider yourself being a “low rep- guy”…
It would be awesome if you could find time to reply…
Thank you very much
[quote]msch31 wrote:
Hey Coach,
thank you very much for all your great articles, they are such an amazing mine of information…
I was just wondering what your take is on German Volume Training?
I know this is kind of a vague question, but I would love to hear your thoughts, since you consider yourself being a “low rep- guy”…
It would be awesome if you could find time to reply…
Thank you very much
[/quote]
I’m a low rep guy. 
I will NOT do 10 x 10 on an exercise, ever. Even if you pay me for it.
NOT because it’s not effective, but because it doesn’t fit my psychological profile and will kill my motivation to train. I tried it once when I was a teenager and it lasted one workout.
I believe that there are more than one way to build muscle… you can build muscle with low reps and heavy weights, with moderate reps and even with high reps. You can do it with minimal exercises and by using a lot of variety.
IF YOU TRAIN HARD AND CONSISTENTLY ANY TRAINING WILL WORK WHEN IT COMES TO BUILDING MUSCLE.
It’s just a matter of which method fits your psychological profile… if a method fits you, you WILL train harder and you WILL be able to stay consistent. So you WILL get more results.
Simple as that.
Thank you very much for your thoughts…
I feel the same way,thinking about doing 10 sets of 10 reps every workout takes away my motivation and desire to train.
You once said in a youtube video that for you to feel good and have good performance, the training needs to activate you rather than fatiguing you…
Since I often tend to overthink things concerning training, I simply needed you to hear from you firsthand to set things straight
Thank you very much and keep up the great work
[quote]msch31 wrote:
Thank you very much for your thoughts…
I feel the same way,thinking about doing 10 sets of 10 reps every workout takes away my motivation and desire to train.
You once said in a youtube video that for you to feel good and have good performance, the training needs to activate you rather than fatiguing you…
Since I often tend to overthink things concerning training, I simply needed you to hear from you firsthand to set things straight
Thank you very much and keep up the great work
[/quote]
No problem! Glad to help
I trained under Gironda and he used methods like this (8x8), although he was smart about the application of volume. But the problem was I got much weaker as the load was so reduced to complete the program (and the “hypertrophy” was really mostly edema unless the trainee was a beginner).
I much prefer lower rep training in the way CT has programmed it, with perhaps a max rep set at the end of a ramp (using even the Perfect Rep approach from years back, for example). If done right, one will likely gain strength and I don’t think it is an inferior hypertrophy model to GVT either, over the longer haul. I also see it as more psychologically sustainable over time (8x8 and 10x10 can get old, early). I prefer progressing the load (ramping), rather than using a fixed weight for redundant sets.
Plus the end of workout feeling is entirely different. I feel invigorated rather than engorged and tired. Just my take on having done both approaches.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]msch31 wrote:
I was just wondering what your take is on German Volume Training?
I know this is kind of a vague question, but I would love to hear your thoughts, since you consider yourself being a “low rep- guy”…
[/quote]
I’m a low rep guy.
I will NOT do 10 x 10 on an exercise, ever. Even if you pay me for it.
NOT because it’s not effective, but because it doesn’t fit my psychological profile and will kill my motivation to train. I tried it once when I was a teenager and it lasted one workout.
IF YOU TRAIN HARD AND CONSISTENTLY ANY TRAINING WILL WORK WHEN IT COMES TO BUILDING MUSCLE.
It’s just a matter of which method fits your psychological profile… if a method fits you, you WILL train harder and you WILL be able to stay consistent. So you WILL get more results.
Simple as that.[/quote]
thanks!
Roygion great stuff. I value your posts up there with CTs because you have experience and they make sense! Curious how you train now?
And looking over CTs methods (perfect rep, layers, etc) what’s gotten you the best gains/liked? The rest pause stuff seems to really be effective and the density stuff (shoot for 25-50 reps total of heavy weight).
Do you train on rings? I read Gironda was big on gymnastic style movements for bodybuilding
Hi, Sigli:
I’m an oldtimer now (comparatively) and just training with oly barbells in an enjoyable and consistent manner is a victory. I don’t see any method as being the Holy Grail (though, when I was young I thought differently and bought the marketing hype). I think one has to train in a way that works and makes you want to train? and do so continuously…that is the Holy Grail.
I stick to a handful of barbell movements spread over 4 work days (I also grapple): Front Squat, conventional Deadlift, Press. I dislike Bench Pressing save for continued ramping after Pressing and then using only Close Grip Benching after Pressing. And I add enough lat and forearm and calf work to serve the pressing and for aesthetics. I think Front Squat is better than Back Squat for most humans (for most strength and aesthetic purposes) if combined with solid deadlifting. You can create a monster with Front Squats plus Deads. Just my view and wish I knew this earlier. I think CT noted something similar on Front Squat plus Deads, if I recall.
I’m using eccentric-less leg work (upright stationary cycling with 30-second all-out bursts at high tension) to great effect these days as a hypertrophy component. This is entirely new for me, in application, as I simply refused to believe it could work. But even now I have better leg size and less pain–like after 2 weeks the size starts. Got the biking thing from Chad, but CT has been saying it a long time too (sleds, etc.) I consider this a virtual miracle and cannot believe I never tried it before.
The most enjoyable training I ever did was when CT articulated his ramping approach in Perfect Rep and later in HTH (and in all the Livespills and commentary after his articles). I had never tried or even heard of that before (but I never was in the Olympic lifting circle of experience, either). I always did grinding sets at some point. But I was never stronger as when I ramped triples in that way. I was also astonished how little rest between sets I needed once I got going.
And I wasn’t any smaller (unlike with German-esque Volume approaches that got me much weaker, much more bored, and had overuse injuries). The other thing was I actually felt good after the ramping workouts, wheareas before, I assumed the price paid for a good workout was feeling wasted. What a waste…
I have taken some time to observe auxiliary methods and exercises by a few other guys (Chad Waterbury does good, analytical work–rings work is good-- and has a safety conscious mindset, so does Stuart McRobert who still likes basics) but I always seem to return to barbell ramping as my core. I must be a neural animal at heart. Wish I knew that decades ago…
If I want more volume (I never want more volume per se but rather more of what more volume might give me) I either add CT’s Max Rep set at the end or I do extended ramping into other pressing movements; I believe this is at least as effective as any other approach.
Given the people I have known, there are very few authors who impress me. Maybe three guys in the last 30 years. CT is one, and given how young he is makes the breadth of his knowledge all the more impressive; it is hard to believe he knows this much at this age, and he does a good job communicating by writing big pieces and even making terrific fast observations in videos or commentary.
Now I haven’t tried all CT’s work since HTH but am content to find my way slowly. I wish I had one life/body to learn this stuff with and the other to apply the stuff that works. Thankfully, you younger guys can avoid the bad stuff right now, if you know where to look.
Sorry for the length but wanted to get to all you asked fully.
Hi Roygion,
Like Sigil, I value your input very much. I remember you liked pushups more than bench pressing, at least for hypertrophy and longevity. If so, how do you program them?
Hi, knokkelezoute73:
I like pushups much more than Bench Press for pec growth without the injury potential caused by the way most folks bench press. Obviously, many might disagree. I don’t think pushups do as much for strength as the bench press, but for most bodybuilding purposes, bench press is not needed.
The pushups allow the scapulae to move properly rather than being mashed into the bench, which then can cause other shoulder and rotator cuff issues over time. I will sometimes add pushups after Pressing when the shoulders and triceps are already weaker. But just banging out endless reps causes issues over time and reduces results.
You need to forcibly adduct while doing pushups (try to pull the hands together, thus forcibly contracting the pecs) and use a full range of motion in great, tight form. (Chad Waterbury has some great thoughts on this.) I also reduce or eliminate stretch reflex while doing this (which is usually magnified if watching how most folks do pushups along with short range of motion).
I prefer handles for greater range of motion or better yet, rings (or any suspended handles), which make things much harder but better enable actual humeral adduction. Taken all together, this will greatly reduce the number of reps that can be done, and increase the contraction on the pecs, especially if off an elevation. Done these ways, programming takes care of itself, but I prefer doing them after other upper body compound work.
Hope that helps.
[quote]Roygion wrote:
Hi, knokkelezoute73:
I like pushups much more than Bench Press for pec growth without the injury potential caused by the way most folks bench press. Obviously, many might disagree. I don’t think pushups do as much for strength as the bench press, but for most bodybuilding purposes, bench press is not needed.
The pushups allow the scapulae to move properly rather than being mashed into the bench, which then can cause other shoulder and rotator cuff issues over time. I will sometimes add pushups after Pressing when the shoulders and triceps are already weaker. But just banging out endless reps causes issues over time and reduces results.
You need to forcibly adduct while doing pushups (try to pull the hands together, thus forcibly contracting the pecs) and use a full range of motion in great, tight form. (Chad Waterbury has some great thoughts on this.) I also reduce or eliminate stretch reflex while doing this (which is usually magnified if watching how most folks do pushups along with short range of motion).
I prefer handles for greater range of motion or better yet, rings (or any suspended handles), which make things much harder but better enable actual humeral adduction. Taken all together, this will greatly reduce the number of reps that can be done, and increase the contraction on the pecs, especially if off an elevation. Done these ways, programming takes care of itself, but I prefer doing them after other upper body compound work.
Hope that helps.[/quote]
Yes, it does, thanks a lot. However, I was wondering whether something like 8 x 8 with really short breaks might work?
knokkelezoute73:
I can’t say I love the high volume redundant rep performance at constant load. So German Volume-esque approaches are not for me, though I once devoted myself to them. Gironda proved they work under the gun of getting people to look good fast. I suppose if your goal was hypertrophy only it may work but most folks not being directly trained cannot maintain this over the long haul, in my opinion.
I don’t have a firm answer to your specific question except to say 8x8 pushups done the way I described above might cause failure in many otherwise strong persons well before 64 reps were done. Chad sent out a link some time ago and there was a large and muscular guy who was fatigued after performing just 15 reps when adduction and other squeezing intensifiers were used, and in proper pushup form. And that was without handles or elevation. Though again, his bodyweight was considerable, which is a huge factor in any bodyweight programming. Still, it goes to show how important rep performance is.
The internet is an interesting thing. Most of you guys who get to read the few great authors, likely already know what to do (many approaches can work, which is what makes this confusing for some), and you have experienced more than many of us oldtimers pre-internet. In the old days, one had to travel to the guru. The problem is separating out all the junk that flies your way too.
[quote]Roygion wrote:
knokkelezoute73:
I can’t say I love the high volume redundant rep performance at constant load. So German Volume-esque approaches are not for me, though I once devoted myself to them. Gironda proved they work under the gun of getting people to look good fast. I suppose if your goal was hypertrophy only it may work but most folks not being directly trained cannot maintain this over the long haul, in my opinion.
I don’t have a firm answer to your specific question except to say 8x8 pushups done the way I described above might cause failure in many otherwise strong persons well before 64 reps were done. Chad sent out a link some time ago and there was a large and muscular guy who was fatigued after performing just 15 reps when adduction and other squeezing intensifiers were used, and in proper pushup form. And that was without handles or elevation. Though again, his bodyweight was considerable, which is a huge factor in any bodyweight programming. Still, it goes to show how important rep performance is.
The internet is an interesting thing. Most of you guys who get to read the few great authors, likely already know what to do (many approaches can work, which is what makes this confusing for some), and you have experienced more than many of us oldtimers pre-internet. In the old days, one had to travel to the guru. The problem is separating out all the junk that flies your way too.[/quote]
Excellent, thanks again. Yes, I can do 8 x 8 with 20 s breaks and good form, but without focusing on exagerating the adduction part of the movement (and I wasn’t sure how to progress from there). I do love Chad Waterbury’s methods too (and coach Thibaudeau’s as well of course), and I like his countdown method with ISO holds for pushups.
knokkelezoute73: I would say that between the teachings of the two guys you just mentioned, and your own focused experience, you would do just fine. After getting some good teaching, trust yourself and your observations. At day’s end, an approach has to be right for you no matter who says what.
Roygion thanks for the wisdom, been meaning to reply. I like hearing your experience with CT’s “perfect rep”. I’ll probably go back to that in the context of his “layers system”.
The pushup > bench press thing is interesting. I’ve recently started doing weighted pushups (putting dip belt as high up on torso as possible) and the movement feels great. Full body tension, shoulder feels good, intense contraction etc. I’d do this on a straight/fat bar and then do basically the same movement on rings.
Another coach also recommended using a chest harness/chord/carabiner to more evenly distribute weight for the pushup motion. Done in this manner it mightt just be superior to BP for strenght and size?..
Hi, Sigil,
For barbell work, I like the ramping approach especially if not grinding at the end, as CT recommends. But that is a preference not a vote of superiority. I can’t say it is better than a Stuart McRobert approach to the big lifts, whose methods work fine. Or a 5/3/1. Or Chad Waterbury’s body of HFT work.
So at day’s end it is about preference for the sort of training that keeps you both healthy and lifting consistently. While there is risk in anything (this ain’t sewing), many men mock safety first-- right up until they can’t lift due to injury. Doesn’t have to be that way. Be better than that now–while you are young–and you’ll have a good body a damned long time.
Transference of strength (to unrelated tasks) is a strange thing. I can’t say what exercises do that better than others, because the skill required in the general strength task in question may actually be highly specific. That is one reason why, after a certain point, posting ever higher numbers on classic lifts has diminishing returns for general performance but added risk (injury potential) and greater fatigue (recovery issues). Steve Maxwell, of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and overall training fame has excellent thoughts on this topic.
One may believe for basic strength, the Bench Press is better than Pushups or even various Dips, but if training to a good level of fatigue on the latter ones, I’m not sure. I am sure that one must “first do no harm” so as to enable continuation of training. In those regards, I think there are better alternatives to Bench Press and also to the Back Squat.
For chest development, the Bench Press would not be my first choice and I did better with various pushup types and rings work/blast straps. But others might claim differently. I have better development results on my thighs from Front Squats (with much lighter loads) than Back Squats, and better results still with all-out, high tension, cycle ergometer sprints. And no pain on the latter at all.
Chad Waterbury’s work is very well thought out regarding comparative safety, with good results in brief workouts, and you should study the Iso-Squeezes and his overall current philosophy in his latest works to see why. Somewhere on his home page is a video of a massive guy who becomes metabolically devastated by doing just a handful of pushups using no added resistance or even elevated feet (scroll down and try to find this vid) because the form is spot-on and an enormous effort is placed on attempted adduction during the exercise (key in pectoral function). And I doubt he is incurring much overuse injury with this approach. I mention this only because the way one performs exercises has a lot to do with all of these issues, as does the choice of the movement. And there are many ways to progress; so don’t be a slave to the more damaging ones (like ever increasing load).
Understand that the trainers I mentioned in this post (and back to Gironda) all have a great belief in their own abilities to understand what is really happening (and in their cases, with good reason). I cannot overstate the value of that. I say experience all you can (without becoming hampered by knowledge) and become your own guru. You may be better qualified than you think.
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