I sure as shit wouldn’t be buying cigarettes with a counterfeit $20 bill while high on fentanyl either, but I don’t see anyone using that as an excuse for kneeling on George Floyd’s neck for 9 minutes.
I don’t think the department decides who gets charged with what, that’s the DA, and it is all political in nature.
The guy was pushed, not hit with a baton, not shot, pushed. I doubt the cops pushing him realized they had the strength of the Hulk and given how the “old” man RAN up to them he didn’t look exactly frail. He wasn’t too old to show up to a protest, despite Covid. He wasn’t too old to run up to cops in riot gear. I honestly don’t think the cops thought that they were doing anything more than pushing him away. Had he not fallen, we wouldn’t be talking about what the cops did.
The “Old man” was a protestoer and is well known activist in the area, based on reports I have heard. He was absolutley trying to engage the police, and that was absolutely a stupid decision.
I’ve been hesitant to get into this thread, but oh well. The main impetus for police issues in the US, in my opinion and experience, is that they use excessive and unnecessary force. And this is not their fault entirley, they are trained to over-respond. When the gunman in Toronto was apprehended without violence last year, you coud hear the experts and consultants on the US news criticizing the Canadian cop for how he handled the situation. Why? Because the “Safest” way to handle it was to subdue the gunman with any force necessary as rapidly as possible to prevent him harmong others. This is the point of view of the higher-ups and guys guiding the training.
Every single video I see about this kind of death, involves cops subduing a guy that isn’t resisting in any way. No one needed to kneel on the guy, he did not need to be on the ground, he just needed to be walked to the car and put in it. Period. He’s dead because the police subdue everyone first and think second. They are either scared and over-amped in every single situation. It’s not particularly relevant what colour the guy is. I am not saying that there is not racism prevalent in the US. There is. But it’s not generally violent. Fear is violent. This incident is going to change precisely nothing. Neither will the next one. Or any of the ones after that. Changing demographics will change it one day, nothing else.
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Your experience and mine differ greatly. Seems like more of that dishonest misleading “information” I referenced earlier.
We are, in demonstrable fact, trained to use the LEAST amount of force necessary. It can and does go overboard at times. Guess what… Those that go overboard are punished accordingly. We’re human. But your assertion is patently false.
We routinely take violent subjects into custody without harming them FAR more often than the reverse. It just doesn’t whip up the emotionally unhinged mob to broadcast it all over world media.
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That’s not what the riot police are for. For de-escalation and dialogue you’ve got community police officers and such. Riot police are supposed to be brought in when the shit really hit the fan and there’s no more discussion. Like I’ve said, they’ve got one job and one job only.
Now, whether they’re being called to soon or whether US police departments have too many military-grade toys at their disposal that’s another matter.
As for pushing a 75 year old man to the ground, there’s no excuse for that.
However, bystanders being hurt was a standard results of riot police interventions at European soccer matches (it’s called football because you hit a ball with your foot) for decades, long before the advent of body cameras.
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This depends on a lot of things, and my assertion is not patently false, just uncomfortable. I know plenty of police. My brother-in-law is a cop. I also have been arrested (Twice) for something that I didn’t do. I was also harassed for months by State cops. No one ever laid a hand on me because I’m white and calm. They were scared witless though, for no perceivable reason other than I’m a big guy. You tell me why else he ends up on the ground? Guys cover fear b being in groups and turninig it into adrenaline. It’s not systematic racism, I don’t believe for a second that most of you care about colour int he situation. Guys get amped and make the bad decision to control a situation by simply subduing everyone involved. And even people that happen to be too near at the time or that say something about what’s going on. Americans frequently escalate things when the should be doing the opposite. Everyone is over-sensitive and over-amped and they all think that the right course of action is to go off at someone. Nobody stays calm, least of all the onlookers. That is an immense amount of pressure to put someone under, the responses are unsurprising. And in spite of your claim, a lot of training does in fact escalate situations - even though many of the actions that do that are meant to do the opposite or reduce risk of violence. Situations are appraoched with overwhelmng force and a “Cuff everyone now and sort 'em out later” response. Not alsways the wrong thing, sometimes there is no other option, but it almost never actually calms anything down.
Based on what many have written on this thread; I would hope that most would agree that deploying active duty military; especially infantry; is a very, very bad idea.
Speaking of training, its to shoot to kill and to take and hold objectives. How could they possibly be a good idea to deploy against protesting Americans?
I am all ears.
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Ok, I’ll be “that guy”.
The old guy had white hair, sure, but he was wearing a mask -how can you tell he is 75 years old?? ?
He is a well-known Political Activist in the Buffalo area.
(not how I’d describe the riot cops in the video; just me, but I’m actually surprised at how close the cops let the old guy get to them before getting him out of the way)
@marine77 This is not how you’d react because you are obviously extremely well trained and a badass.
But that does not describe your “generic” every day cop.
And all the cops in riot gear focused on their “mission” know this?
add: I was referring to the cops’ point of view wrt his age
I answered your first question on how anyone knew he was 75 years old.
I don’t understand your point with the second question.
From a personal standpoint; i don’t think the Police acted with malice; and in fact, if this had been a healthy, nimble and strong, say, 20 year old, this most likely would not have happened.
(That is just speculation on my part).
My point was that people know he is 75 after the fact. His age was not patently obvious in the heat of the moment, due to the fact that he had a mask on.
I think I said that, not Mufasa, in spite of the quote.
I don’t know if they knew or not, that’s not the point. He wasn’t just some random old guy, he was someone that’s been at and doing these things for years. That sheds light on the interaction. Either their actions were out of character in his experience, or he was a little too over-amped himself and really should have known better.
Maybe it’s different in the US, but here its the cops that charge you and whether or not to actually take you to trial is up to the prosecutor. Sure, politics play a role in certain things, but to me what happened there was clearly not right.
The cops don’t have the right to push people, or otherwise use any sort of force, without justification. This doesn’t look justified at all.
Same thing if George Floyd didn’t die, but he did.
Even if it was a war, there are still rules of engagement.
Even if it was a younger person it wasn’t necessary to push him. Maybe the outcome would have been different, but when people are protesting against cops acting like assholes does it make sense for the cops to come in and act like assholes? It certainly won’t improve public perception.
Cops assaulted in the U.K. today, with bricks and bottles. One mounted cop seriously injured.
Now the lefty activists move to ban mounted police.
URGE. TO. PURGE. BEGINNING. TO. SURGE.
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Ha… I wouldn’t say that really. Actually having trained bjj for 15 years has really taught me restraint and remaining calm.
I’ll also reiterate… I’m not aware of a single protester that was harmed despite 4 of our guys being shot and Dave Dorn murdered. That’s commendable.
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We also do not “subdue everyone first and think second.” It happens but it’s not the rule by a long shot. Not only are you using flimsy anecdotal evidence you’re also grossly over generalizing.
For every one instance of legit overuse of force you see there are thousands of instances of legit uses of force. I think your heart’s in the right place but your reality is quite removed from the norm.
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You said we are “trained to over respond.” Which is patently false. Do we sometimes over respond ? Absolutely. It’s subjective but I’ll concede that we do. We are NOT; however, trained to do so. Our PASS compliance use of force states “the LEAST amount of force necessary.”
Which post are you referring to. I have jokes mixed in sometimes, not everyone gets my attempts at humour.