George Floyd Riots

[lucasmon]

@chillain

With privilege come the ability to consider these killings/deaths within broader perspectives such as this.

Notice how you’ve completely neglected to mention the UNARMED aspect in your “summary” of the stats, even though this is a kind of a key pillar of what’s currently boiling over in the hearts & minds of many.

Have you looked into the stats? Because this “key pillar” is not supported by the data.

As are many other people every year, of all races. Protesting for this so called epidemic of cops killing black people is a false narrative. Especially this idea that white cops are killing innocent black people. It is just not true. Media, those in power just want chaos, division to what ends…?

As someone posted earlier. More white people are killed by cops every year.

“But, there are more white people, it is disproportionately black”

Black people commit more violent crimes…Murder and robbery.

“White cops are really loosy goosy with shooting black people”

Blacks cops are 67% more likely to shoot unarmed black suspects, Latino cops 124% more likely.

“But cops are always shooting unarmed suspects”

The vast majority – between 90% and 95% – of the civilians shot by officers were actively attacking police or other citizens when they were shot

So, of the 200 plus Black people killed every year by cops a few were unarmed and the situation was one like that of George Floyd. While terrible it is hardly an epidemic. And as I said this happens to people of all races EVERY YEAR but, it is not sexy unless it is WHITE on BLACK.

If the argument is that LE need a better education standard, hiring process as well as a much stringent psychological evaluation then I completely agree.

[steelcurtain]

@Californiagrown

Malpractice insurance paid for by the department seems good in theory. Do you think it would be abused?

Why don’t you like “community policing”… Basically incentivizing cops to live in the neighborhood/city they patrol? Is it an off-dutt safety thing for you? Where I am we have a “problem” of most cops living out in MAGA countryside, but policing in liberalville inner-city.

In regards to the insurance here is what I could foresee happening. The Court has decreed the police have no duty to protect civilians. Potentially violent encounters have a high risk of leading to incidents, whether intentional or accidental, that could trigger a suit. Why send officers into active situations that have a high potential of financial risk to the department or city? We already see this happening with some of the riots. Cities are already civilly responsible for rights violations when QI doesn’t exist so this seems redundant. I’m no expert on civil law however.

In regards to the community policing, yes, forcing officers to live in the neighborhoods they patrol poses many issues. What if that hood is priced in the top 20% of the city? That would be a budgetary nightmare for most cities. What cop will want to move to a neighborhood filled with gangs? Especially if you have a family. What happens if you get promoted or assigned to a different area? Perhaps if a dept. could successfully recruit from a depressed area then maybe you’d find cops willing to live where they grew up and have family. Not sure if that’s been successfully implemented anywhere though. I would hope so. Although I was assigned to a specific area, because of chronic staffing issues, I often worked other areas to cover guys who were sick, hurt, on vaca etc. I lived in the area I patrolled which was a godsend when it came time for bathroom breaks. Not much worse than the combination of a duty belt and gear and a filthy gas station bathroom.

[chris_ottawa]

@mnben87

@zecarlo

@chris_ottawa

The average white person is not responsible for any racial issue in America

They are responsible for them continuing to exist and they benefit from them.

How? Are you speaking of all white people or individuals?

He’s one of those self-hating white cisgender males.

[chris_ottawa]

@zecarlo

They are responsible for them continuing to exist and they benefit from them.

That’s ridiculous. You can’t be blamed for the situation you are born into.

@zecarlo

They should start with their own lives and in their own homes.

How would you do that? What does that even mean?

@zecarlo

I would agree, obviously.

Are you overwhelmed with “white guilt”?

@zecarlo

No. Blaming black people for one’s racism, is a cop out.

Cop out or not, it’s not going to lead to anything positive.

[zecarlo]

@chris_ottawa

He’s one of those self-hating

Do I really sound like I hate myself? If anything, my posts should tell you I’m full of myself. It’s the white people who want to feel like victims of some unseen oppression and want to destroy society who hate themselves.

What we see with Antifa and their apologists is the thinking that we can get radicalism and revolution from the bourgeoisie. Antifa is what Che Guevara would have looked like if he still lived at his parents.

[Legalsteel]

[zecarlo]

@chris_ottawa

You can’t be blamed for the situation you are born into.

I never blamed anyone. But they help to maintain the status quo.

@chris_ottawa

How would you do that? What does that even mean?

Before they go and destroy other communities, they should fix their own lives. You don’t just wake up one day and decide to torch a police car.

@chris_ottawa

Are you overwhelmed with “white guilt”?

See, this is a sign of not thinking deeply. If I were overwhelmed with white guilt, I would be throwing bricks at cops right now.

[chris_ottawa]

I agree with your criticism of antifa and random white people who took this as an opportunity to loot stores (I would blame black looters too), and this:

@zecarlo

white people who want to feel like victims of some unseen oppression and want to destroy society who hate themselves.

But you sound like one of those typical left wingers ready to prostrate themselves before any minority with a grievance.

Turning this into a black vs. white thing can’t possibly lead to anything good. People of different races are together protesting against racism and police violence, I don’t see any way that racially segregating the protest in one way or another will help society.

You talk about “giving back to the black community”, I suppose that sounds good, but how does one go about that? Are there organizations for suburban white Americans to join and do such things? Maybe you should look into starting something yourself.

[chris_ottawa]

@zecarlo

See, this is a sign of not thinking deeply. If I were overwhelmed with white guilt, I would be throwing bricks at cops right now.

Sounds like maybe the white guilt is too much for you to bear and rioting would involve stealing the spotlight from black people.

[Aragorn]

@twojarslave

If someone could point to a set of laws, rulings or protections that are needed, I’d be all ears about this. This is precisely my criticism of the movement and larger narrative. There is no clearly defined goal or set of events that will satisfy the rioters

There’s no clearly defined set of events that would satisfy 100% of voters in both parties either, and yet the country is still here. You’re NEVER going to get 100% of any body to agree. I’m addition, part of the reason there are no clearly defined goals is that currently protests lack a central figure (like MLK) that can help verbalize and put forth ideas.

However, I do like a lot of ideas from the threader links that Californiagrown put up earlier. We can debate which are worthy but the bottom line is if even a few reforms were passed it would help.

@twojarslave

Government has never been able to control the behavior of individuals, and I can positively guarantee you that sooner or later, another event will happen

You don’t think that if concrete actions were taken to address things before the next event that it might make a difference? I certainly do. Just like I am willing to give most politicians leeway on policy I don’t like if I can tell that they are generally heading in a direction that is positive overall. Or like many of us are willing (I hope) to give our bosses some grace on bad decisions or days if they have proven over time to be generally upstanding people and caring towards their employees.

@twojarslave

This is where you lose me. I agree there are institutional problems to solve that can broadly be called “good old boys networks” or just “cops looking after cops”. The problem is, you can’t fix that with laws or courts

Here’s the thing, the goal isn’t 100%. The goal is moving solidly in a certain direction. Just like none of us look exactly like our “ideal” physique but continue to work and progress toward better physiques. a lot of previous suggestions don’t require courts at a high level. They require some amount of political will, and external review (see special prosecutor or oversight on union contracts) Both of these things are things that CAN be had even if with some difficulty.

[zecarlo]

@chris_ottawa

But you sound like one of those typical left wingers ready to prostrate themselves before any minority with a grievance.

That wouldn’t make me feel better and it wouldn’t do anything to address the grievance.

@chris_ottawa

Turning this into a black vs. white thing

Isn’t it that already?

My issue is that white people have made it about white people. People in the inner cities don’t care about fascism and believe it or not, unlike the morons who talk about not having cops at all, they want the police to be in their communities. These white protesters want to destroy society whereas black people just want to be part of it. And when I say white people I don’t mean all white people. It’s the white people who are trying to destroy a society that is guilty of telling them they need to get a job. That is their oppression.

[Legalsteel]

@Aragorn

However, I do like a lot of ideas from the threader links that Californiagrown put up earlier.

Agreed, there was some real meat to that post.

[zecarlo]

@chris_ottawa

Sounds like maybe the white guilt

Guilt over what? My people created civilization as we know it. If someone tells me I should feel guilty I’ll tell them I’ll feel guilty when they stop eating pizza.

[Aragorn]

Oh, they’re trolling us big time.

If we had someone a bit more cogent he could probably succinctly call them out on the irony and their human rights violations that are a mile long.

[chris_ottawa]

@zecarlo

Isn’t it that already?

The question is how do black people feel about it? Like I said, the first set of protests in Minneapolis included a lot of white people, not antifa morons, and it wasn’t all about looting stores either. Things may have changed between now and then, but with antifa and white supremacists getting involved it looks more like it’s turning into a right vs. left thing instead.

@zecarlo

My issue is that white people have made it about white people.

Yeah, that isn’t much use at all.

@zecarlo

And when I say white people I don’t mean all white people. It’s the white people who are trying to destroy a society that is guilty of telling them they need to get a job. That is their oppression.

If you phrase it like that I agree, I just disagree that white people in general or any other race shouldn’t join in a protest sparked by a black man being killed by the police.

@zecarlo

Guilt over what? My people created civilization as we know it.

Isn’t that even worse then?

@zecarlo

If someone tells me I should feel guilty I’ll tell them I’ll feel guilty when they stop eating pizza.

Getting us hooked on your high-carb poison, you should be ashamed.

[Legalsteel]

@Aragorn

If we had someone a bit more cogent he could probably succinctly call them out on the irony and their human rights violations that are a mile long.

This has been one of my major bones of critique throughout the Trump presidency. He’s instinctually right on China, but he can’t deliver the hammer blows that Thatcher or Reagan could.

Oh for him to be the littlest bit more articulate.

Edit: and consistent, it must be added.

[zecarlo]

@chris_ottawa

Isn’t that even worse then?

We created it. We didn’t tell you to ruin it.

@chris_ottawa

Getting us hooked on your high-carb poison,

We never told you to cook it in a pan.

[Legalsteel]

@zecarlo

We never told you to cook it in a pan.

And absolutely no one told the Scots to deep fry it. Yet they did it anyway.

Edit: behold the mighty works of Glasgow and despair:

[twojarslave]

@Aragorn

However, I do like a lot of ideas from the threader links that Californiagrown put up earlier. We can debate which are worthy but the bottom line is if even a few reforms were passed it would help.

I’m not so sure about that, especially considering it will take an awful lot of work to unpack the assumptions. The thread began with this assumption (highlighted in bold):

I don’t expect I’m gonna get a lot of traction, but I’d really love it if some folks in #LawEnforcement or #lawyers wanted to jump in and give us a set of concrete steps we can take to deal with the takeover of the legal and justice systems by white nationalists.

I’ve no doubt that white nationalists can be found on police forces, but the whole premise of this thread begins with a question that is rooted in pure fiction.

Imaginary assumptions are a bad start to problem-solving, in my opinion. Even if all of those were somehow implement and they all somehow led to improved outcomes overall, we still have a VERY BIG PROBLEM.

What will the response be to the next bad outcome?

@Aragorn

The goal is moving solidly in a certain direction.

This seems very clear to me. Are we sure it is the right one?

It seems to me the direction we’ve been heading is to ensure perpetual race division by insisting that bad outcomes are…

1. Evidence of systemic racism
2. Proof that more action is needed
3. Justification for looting, rioting and further mayhem.

We’ve also placed nuanced discussion largely outside of the realm of polite, acceptable discourse. Can you imagine a news station running a segment explaining lethal force law and giving a detailed break-down of the encounter between Michael Brown and Officer Wilson?

I can’t imagine that either. Yet how are we going to ever have appropriate reactions to the use of force by police if we don’t work harder to understand violence?

Right now, if you don’t cheer along with the narrative, you are a racist and deserve to be shouted down. That’s basically where we are at today. I’d never go to bat for Officer Wilson on my public facebook. It would be social suicide and cause a lot of people to be upset with me, and I doubt I’d convince anyone of anything. There is no more room for nuanced discussion on this topic, at least not in my circle.

This seems quite a bit worse than race relations 20 years ago. Who knows though? Rose colored glasses and all.

[zecarlo]

@Legalsteel

And absolutely no one told the Scots to deep fry it.

They do that in Italy too. But you didn’t hear it from me.