Gear Reality

[heavythrower]

[quote]cycomiko wrote:
Gear is all a crock of crap, and anyone who uses it is a fucking cheater

I want to go back to the old days

I want to take whatever drug I feel like while putting on 2pairs of cut off jeans, wrapping my body in bedsheets, while my mates place tennis balls behind my knees before they wrap them in place with ACE bandages.[/quote]

sorry, i have to revisit this, cuz this is such a ridiculous argument it deserves a good thrashing.

so what is your point? was the use of the bedsheets and jeans and tennis balls a bad thing? you act like it was ridiculous, well modern gear is just as ridiculous, cept it costs 300-400 dollars now. the same thing is being accomplished. artificially improving your numbers. so if what was done at the 68 seniors was out of hand, what the hell would you call what is going on today?

back then, the use of various paraphernalia to improve numbers gradually got out of hand to the point there was a backlash, and the governing organizations laid the smack down and put a stop to it. during the 70’s the lifting was done pretty much just knee wraps and a belt only.

i tell you that this is going to happen again, as it has gotten just as out of hand today as it was back in the late 60’s.

[superscience]

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Oh, man.

You got me there.

What a shock you basically ignored the entire content of the post in another attempt to parallel argue about strength levels.

Didn’t you find a little irony in the fact that the article you cited to make another worthless attempt at strengthening your position is written by somebody we are familar with?

At least our women lifters have the balls to compete and don’t come on forums pointing out a bunch of problems in a sport they aren’t even involved in.

Even if you offered a solution it would not be worth a thing because they have no basis for your opinion other than that you “really believe it.”

Obviously this is much more than I can say for you.

Run along now and tend to your little injury.

[/quote]

I told you i refuse to argue this anymore with you. You still haven’t explained why its good for the sport.

The end

[apwsearch]

Actually, I did address that question, it’s just not the answer you were looking for.

Remember this:

“I may not like everything that goes on in it, but rather than pointing out a bunch of problems I cannot offer solutions to, I chose to do the best I can in the competitive environment I am in, and have a little fun. This sport is full of people who are great at pointing out problems, but short on solutions. I try very hard to not be one of them.”

To paraphrase for you, as far as I am concerned it is a moot point because I enjoy lifting and try to go where I have the best competition under the standards I respect, and try to have some fun while I am at it.

The gear hasn’t gotten to the point where I am not having fun anymore.

If it ever resulted in relaxing of the lifting standards to accomodate it’s use, that would be a whole different issue.

Anyway, it’s been fun.

Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

[superscience]

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Actually, I did address that question, it’s just not the answer you were looking for.

Remember this:

“I may not like everything that goes on in it, but rather than pointing out a bunch of problems I cannot offer solutions to, I chose to do the best I can in the competitive environment I am in, and have a little fun. This sport is full of people who are great at pointing out problems, but short on solutions. I try very hard to not be one of them.”

To paraphrase for you, as far as I am concerned it is a moot point because I enjoy lifting and try to go where I have the best competition under the standards I respect, and try to have some fun while I am at it.

The gear hasn’t gotten to the point where I am not having fun anymore.

If it ever resulted in relaxing of the lifting standards to accomodate it’s use, that would be a whole different issue.

Anyway, it’s been fun.

Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

[/quote]

Yeah i read this and what i take from this is;
You don’t even like everything that goes on yourself but you just get along with it anyway because you enjoy it.

Where have you given any points to why its good for the sport.

There is plenty of solutions;

1. Get rid of the gear completly and have one big raw federation
2. Moonchild gave a good solution
3. Make gear so that it doesn’t give anyone more than 2%-5% on their raw lifts.
4. Bring in the bionic arms and let everyone bench the fairy tale numbers raw lol, just kidding.

[apwsearch]

Then get involved and make it happen.

What’s that I hear?

Crickets chirping?

That’s what I thought.

Just another guy who thinks he has all the answers which is really coonvenient when you will never have to get involved in implementing any of the solutions.

I sincerely hope you never choose to compete, RAW or otherwise, because federations are full of guys like you and they just bog things down and alienate people left and right.

Stick to what you do best. Not much.

Watch out for that door.

[apwsearch]

Allow me to revisit one more point made earlier.

"3. You have got to be fucking joking if you think I am going to couch any bullet points you throw my way.

It would be about like talking to a guy at the local oil change place about performance modifications for a Ferrari Maranello 575M.

He would probably have some opinions to offer, but who cares?"

My hands on the door, better get moving.

[superscience]

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
Allow me to revisit one more point made earlier.

"3. You have got to be fucking joking if you think I am going to couch any bullet points you throw my way.

It would be about like talking to a guy at the local oil change place about performance modifications for a Ferrari Maranello 575M.

He would probably have some opinions to offer, but who cares?"

My hands on the door, better get moving.

[/quote]

What door, move where lol. After all this you sure have convinced me that, gear is amazing, its wonderful, can’t believe i havn’t been using it all this time.

Good luck, and no bad feelings, this is my last post regardless of what you say, this is getting ridiculous.

All ive learned from this thread is, we are 2 sad cunts for arguing all this time.

[apwsearch]

Perhaps.

Toodles.

[cycomiko]

[quote]yawn… that old argument?

1. so i guess drugs are NOT being used today?[/quote]

So mike, are you saying that drug testing today plays no part in limiting the absolute amount of drugs used? sure there is some untested feds, but hey why did the russians performance drop when they had to pass drug tests?

cos we all know they use magical drugs that allow them to pass drug tests don’t we… oops magic must not work for the russians.

2. the meet you are talking about was an isolated event. there is a lot of photos and video of Pl meets in the 70’s before gear, that ClEARLY show no such thing happening. whenever some modern gear whore gets a little frustrated with defending the outrageous gear he/she is using, they bring up that story.

How nice. Except it was not a single event (although it was the '68 seniors that pushed it to the forefront), it was over the course of a number of years, starting in the early '60s but really standing out in the late '60s/early 70’s, so posting an image of Don after the AAU adopted the no wrapping rules in ~73 ignores everything that came before it. Posting a picture of Doug Young is even worse, who arrived on the lifting scene after the ban… geee thats useful.

It shows that you are avoiding the truth of powerliftings past to suit your argument.

The interesting thing about the use of ‘gear’ is that it origonated from a certain Westside. Hell, Frenn was the first to push the limits of gear legality by his use of elbow wraps in the 1967 Seniors. Throughout the era they attempted everything to get away with wearing whatever htey could, it was especially prevalent in the 68, and stood out in the 68 senior nationals. The use of ‘gear’ continued until the AAU tried to outlaw wrapping prior to the '69 Seniors, but they still allowed elbow and leg wraps. But records acheived with whole body wrapping did stay, and lifters still utilized the likes of tennis balls behind the wraps as they were harder to spot. Early 70s the use of jeans continued, mainly in smaller meets and training, but still there. In '72 Jim Williams achieved his 675 bench while utilizing elbow wraps. Mike McDonald benched 545 using elbow wraps that year

And frustrated modern gear whore… you OWN more gear than I have used in my life.

[cycomiko]

i tell you that this is going to happen again, as it has gotten just as out of hand today as it was back in the late 60’s.

Well mike, do this

1. join a federation
2. attend the AGM
3. attain support for your ideals
4. propose rule changes and get them voted in

if you dont do that, then you are just part of the problem with powerlifting, not the solution.

[cycomiko]

[quote]superscience wrote:

I told you i refuse to argue this anymore with you. You still haven’t explained why its good for the sport.

The end[/quote]

its already been said time and time again, but obviously you must be challanged.

Teh sold reason it is good for this sport is MONEY.

If the gear producers do not put money into the sport, who is? you?

The end

[heavythrower]

[quote]cycomiko wrote:
yawn… that old argument?

1. so i guess drugs are NOT being used today?

So mike, are you saying that drug testing today plays no part in limiting the absolute amount of drugs used? sure there is some untested feds, but hey why did the russians performance drop when they had to pass drug tests?

cos we all know they use magical drugs that allow them to pass drug tests don’t we… oops magic must not work for the russians.

2. the meet you are talking about was an isolated event. there is a lot of photos and video of Pl meets in the 70’s before gear, that ClEARLY show no such thing happening. whenever some modern gear whore gets a little frustrated with defending the outrageous gear he/she is using, they bring up that story.

How nice. Except it was not a single event (although it was the '68 seniors that pushed it to the forefront), it was over the course of a number of years, starting in the early '60s but really standing out in the late '60s/early 70’s, so posting an image of Don after the AAU adopted the no wrapping rules in ~73 ignores everything that came before it. Posting a picture of Doug Young is even worse, who arrived on the lifting scene after the ban… geee thats useful.

It shows that you are avoiding the truth of powerliftings past to suit your argument.

The interesting thing about the use of ‘gear’ is that it origonated from a certain Westside. Hell, Frenn was the first to push the limits of gear legality by his use of elbow wraps in the 1967 Seniors. Throughout the era they attempted everything to get away with wearing whatever htey could, it was especially prevalent in the 68, and stood out in the 68 senior nationals. The use of ‘gear’ continued until the AAU tried to outlaw wrapping prior to the '69 Seniors, but they still allowed elbow and leg wraps. But records acheived with whole body wrapping did stay, and lifters still utilized the likes of tennis balls behind the wraps as they were harder to spot. Early 70s the use of jeans continued, mainly in smaller meets and training, but still there. In '72 Jim Williams achieved his 675 bench while utilizing elbow wraps. Mike McDonald benched 545 using elbow wraps that year

And frustrated modern gear whore… you OWN more gear than I have used in my life. [/quote]

sorry, you lose.

man, I AM the one who posted links to the articles showing that lifting aids were gradually getting out of hand until the 68 seniors where it was so STUPID that it drew lts of attention. so what is your point? thing is, that it got out of hand, so rules were changed so the sport would be more respectable. go look at the book “Inside Powerlifting”, the one the pic of Doug young i posted was on the cover. in that book you can see Marvin Phillips, Ron Collins, Ricky Crain, Larry Pacific, don reinhoudt, and Doug young in competition with NO gear. oh, by the way, mike MacDonald benched 545 with wraps? in that book it shows him benching 600 WITHOUT wraps, so AGAIN, whats your point???

you said like i did not know that gear use(of a sorts) was used in PL before the pics i showed??? WTF? look at the links posted! that was not the point! i was showing that gear use got eliminated and scaled back and as a result a "golden age of PL ensued. it was during Doug Young’s time that ABC’s wide world of sports showed PL from time to time.

you guys say time and time again that now that we are here, that there is no turning back, but PL has been there before and things got fixed. why not now.

[heavythrower]

“you OWN more gear than I have used in my life.”

do i? do i know you? if not, then you are assuming quite a bit. regardless of the amount of gear i accumilated while training at diablo, during my competitive years, after my first contest(in which i went 535, 335, 535 with just a singlet and a belt as a 18 year old, the most gear i used was a single ply post frantz suit that i could put on myself with out ANY help, wraps and for my last two competitions (after i ripped my AC joint off the scapula) i wore a single ply denim shirt, that i also could get on nearly by myself. basically, the shirt let me pause at a meet what i could touch and go for a 1 rep max in the gym. i would have been happy to go raw if that is what the rules allowed.

[heavythrower]

let me back track a bit. i would edit the previous post but for some reason i cant use the edit function right now(WTF?)

i do not want to seem like a smart arse, especially to you cyco, as you are not the typical guy who chimes in and accuses the RAW guys of being pussies and not “man” enough to lift with gear. you usually respond in these debates with a level head.

so i will back off a bit.

honestly, i want to ask you a question.

why is it so bad i have an opinion?

you ever play pro football or baseball? are YOU allowed to have an opinion about your local pro team you support? sure you do, and even if i did not ever compete, i am allowed to have an opinion of the sport as i am a fan of the iron game in general.

another honest question:

-how much gear would be too much in your opinion? so it is ok in your eyes for a guy to get 150-300lbs out a suit and shirt, would you be ok with a new design/material that gives 300-500lbs of boost? what would be the limit? when would cycomiko decide, “uhh, now that is ridiculous…”

i really want to know. i am not being an ass, i really am curious.

[cycomiko]

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

“you OWN more gear than I have used in my life.”

do i? do i know you? if not, then you are assuming quite a bit. regardless of the amount of gear i accumilated while training at diablo, [/quote]

So we just ignore all of the gear that you own now, and go on about when you were 18? When I was 18 I lifted in a crappy Kidney belt, no wraps, no belt, no shirt.

Does that make you feel better?

[cycomiko]

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

you ever play pro football or baseball? are YOU allowed to have an opinion about your local pro team you support? sure you do, and even if i did not ever compete, i am allowed to have an opinion of the sport as i am a fan of the iron game in general. [/quote]
Of course, but if your complaining about the rules all that makes you is another piece of noise from the sidelines, which does nothing but bring the sport down. Dont like the rules, then do your best to make sure they are changed.

[quote]another honest question:

-how much gear would be too much in your opinion? so it is ok in your eyes for a guy to get 150-300lbs out a suit and shirt, would you be ok with a new design/material that gives 300-500lbs of boost? what would be the limit? when would cycomiko decide, “uhh, now that is ridiculous…”
[/quote]

All gear sucks

Doesnt mean that I will not wear whatever I am allowed to in order to compete with my peers.

[heavythrower]

cyco, i jhad plans to compete again at a usapl meet with nothing but singlet and a belt. i was hoping to get a token bench of 135, and hit 600 squat and 650 pull.

that would have been my 'statement". unfortuneatley my shoulders and low back (all which need surgery) told me otherwise.

if i was able to do that, would i have been allowed to have an opinion then?

[heavythrower]

[quote]cycomiko wrote:
heavythrower wrote:

you ever play pro football or baseball? are YOU allowed to have an opinion about your local pro team you support? sure you do, and even if i did not ever compete, i am allowed to have an opinion of the sport as i am a fan of the iron game in general.
Of course, but if your complaining about the rules all that makes you is another piece of noise from the sidelines, which does nothing but bring the sport down. Dont like the rules, then do your best to make sure they are changed.

another honest question:

-how much gear would be too much in your opinion? so it is ok in your eyes for a guy to get 150-300lbs out a suit and shirt, would you be ok with a new design/material that gives 300-500lbs of boost? what would be the limit? when would cycomiko decide, “uhh, now that is ridiculous…”

All gear sucks

Doesnt mean that I will not wear whatever I am allowed to in order to compete with my peers.[/quote]

so mike, what am i ALLOWED to complain about? please spell it out for me so i will not displease you again. gee, if somebody would have told me what i am allowed to say or not to begin with, none of this would have happened.

really, what may i talk about. let me know?

[cycomiko]

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

sorry, you lose.[/quote]
whatever gets you to sleep at night

[quote]man, I AM the one who posted links to the articles showing that lifting aids were gradually getting out of hand until the 68 seniors where it was so STUPID that it drew lts of attention. [/quote]so lifting aids were gradually getting worse and peaked at the 68 seniors

what happened to " the meet you are talking about was an isolated event" that you said earlier.

Isolated event?

[quote]so what is your point? thing is, that it got out of hand, so rules were changed so the sport would be more respectable.[/quote]so?

[quote] go look at the book “Inside Powerlifting”, the one the pic of Doug young i posted was on the cover. in that book you can see Marvin Phillips, Ron Collins, Ricky Crain, Larry Pacific, don reinhoudt, and Doug young in competition with NO gear. oh, by the way, mike MacDonald benched 545 with wraps? in that book it shows him benching 600 WITHOUT wraps, so AGAIN, whats your point???[/quote]So? mcdonald also wasnt 181 anymore… point to a bunch of lifters that appera AFTER the rule change as an example of something? that was the point, but worrying about the 600 from mcdonald… 545 is Mcdonalds BEST at 181, but I suppose 60lbs of added weihgt had nothing to do with that…

[quote]you said like i did not know that gear use(of a sorts) was used in PL before the pics i showed??? WTF? look at the links posted! that was not the point! i was showing that gear use got eliminated and scaled back and as a result a "golden age of PL ensued.[/quote]No, you said “here you can plainly See the multiple bedsheets jeans and tennis balls wrapped around his knees. what a cheater.” nothing about golden age anything…

(and P.S. i posted my comments BEFORE I saw your links, although I have already read all of that site.)

[quote]all it was during Doug Young’s time that ABC’s wide world of sports showed PL from time to time.[/quote]and ESPN shows poker, your point?

you guys say time and time again that now that we are here, that there is no turning back, but PL has been there before and things got fixed. why not now.

Where did I say that? could you show me as I appear to have forgotten that.

[cycomiko]

[quote]heavythrower wrote:

so mike, what am i ALLOWED to complain about? please spell it out for me so i will not displease you again. gee, if somebody would have told me what i am allowed to say or not to begin with, none of this would have happened.

really, what may i talk about. let me know?[/quote]

I dont think I said you couldnt comment on it… but seeing as you comment on it quite a lot and all that every thread turns into is a ‘raw vs gear’ garbage, what does it achieve?

I will repeat myself tho

Of course, but if your complaining about the rules all that makes you is another piece of noise from the sidelines, which does nothing but bring the sport down.