Gabby Reece on Being Submissive

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
There is no such thing as equality. None. [/quote]

Cortes, thanks for the kind words to me in this thread. You described men and women as being like the heart and lungs. Not equal, but equally VITAL. Complementary parts. Thanks for trying to point out some of the nuances.

Our culture puts a high value on equality. And independence. BUT we can’t all be independent all the time. There is something to be gained in our interdependence. I like the idea of different, but complementary.

“Equality” can be very hard to try to measure. Is an apple equal to an orange? They are both fruit. It’s a one to one ratio. But you can’t say they are equal. That’s a bit how I see SOME of the aspects of a marriage. On many levels, we are just equal individuals. Or since we’re both religious, we know we are all equal to God. He is no respecter of persons.

[/quote]

PP, as usual, you and I appear to be pretty much of the same mind here. “Equally vital” is exactly what I intended to convey.

I decided not to get too deep into it this time because I’ve said it more than once in past threads of this nature, but I have NEVER suggested that the male role is in any way superior to the female. As far as a family goes, you need both. Humans DO possess both masculine and feminine traits, and the best arrangement we have is that of a mother and a father raising their children together, in harmony. That means that, despite any role he may assume, the father’s leadership is meaningless without the mother’s cooperation, and his so-called dominance is predicated upon the accord and happiness of the family he is charged with protecting and rearing.

There are certain roles that I just cannot do. I do not possess the kind of patient, nurturing, empathetic caregiver spirit that my wife is blessed with. There are times when my parenting style is not what my kids need, or times when I just don’t have the patience that she does in dealing with two whining, crying, complaining, house-wrecking, unappreciative, wonderful, cuddly, fun, precious awesome little boys.

There are other times, just as VITAL, but in a completely different sense, that my boys need someone to roughhouse and act stupid with, or, occasionally, they need to be made to understand an important lesson about a potentially dangerous truth in a way that (God how it annoys me that I have type out these parenthetical caveats typically) only a father can.

My wife and I complete each other. I do not hold myself above her, nor do I believe her to be one iota inferior to me. Indeed, she is a far better person than I am, and I consciously strive to be more like her. She is far less given to temptation or temper than I am. Much more patient. And orders of magnitude more selfless. I’m too often a slave to my passion and energy.

So, in what I hope to be my final definitive word on this subject in this thread, I would ask that people focus a little less on the dynamic of a power struggle (a false projection or outright misrepresentation) and a little more on that of a team of people, each fulfilling the role and duties for which he is biologically and innately suited, each working selflessly for the benefit of the whole before himself.

Does that make sense? [/quote]

After reading this I must come to the conclusion that you vastly underestimate how wonderful of a husband and father you must be. It is quite clear from this how much you love your wife and your boys. As lucky as you are to have her, it seems your wife and boys are equally lucky to have you as well. Very insightful post. As pretty much all your posts are.

Never responded to one of your posts before but was moved by this one :slight_smile:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

Can Puff Do the Bald Look?

Should Puff Grow A Beard?
[/quote]

Waaaaayyyyyyyy…

Too easy.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

Can Puff Do the Bald Look?

Should Puff Grow A Beard?
[/quote]

Waaaaayyyyyyyy…

Too easy. [/quote]

Too beta? Would doing lots of shrugs help?

I could put up a picture looking as angry as possible, and then we could photoshop various beards on it.

I’ve said this before, but I have one random chin hair, but The Mister holds me down and tweezes every time it breaks the skin. Please advise.

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

Can Puff Do the Bald Look?

Should Puff Grow A Beard?
[/quote]

Waaaaayyyyyyyy…

Too easy. [/quote]

Too beta? Would doing lots of shrugs help?

I could put up a picture looking as angry as possible, and then we could photoshop various beards on it.

I’ve said this before, but I have one random chin hair, but The Mister holds me down and tweezes every time it breaks the skin. Please advise.
[/quote]

Yes.

You need to bw moaaarrr ALPHA!

Please conquer a small country and let you chinhair grow out to form a full beard.

All I know is that I would sooner spend the rest of my life with a Fleshlight than a dominating woman.

– ElbowStrike

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
There is no such thing as equality. None. [/quote]

Cortes, thanks for the kind words to me in this thread. You described men and women as being like the heart and lungs. Not equal, but equally VITAL. Complementary parts. Thanks for trying to point out some of the nuances.

Our culture puts a high value on equality. And independence. BUT we can’t all be independent all the time. There is something to be gained in our interdependence. I like the idea of different, but complementary.

“Equality” can be very hard to try to measure. Is an apple equal to an orange? They are both fruit. It’s a one to one ratio. But you can’t say they are equal. That’s a bit how I see SOME of the aspects of a marriage. On many levels, we are just equal individuals. Or since we’re both religious, we know we are all equal to God. He is no respecter of persons.

[/quote]

PP, as usual, you and I appear to be pretty much of the same mind here. “Equally vital” is exactly what I intended to convey.

I decided not to get too deep into it this time because I’ve said it more than once in past threads of this nature, but I have NEVER suggested that the male role is in any way superior to the female. As far as a family goes, you need both. Humans DO possess both masculine and feminine traits, and the best arrangement we have is that of a mother and a father raising their children together, in harmony. That means that, despite any role he may assume, the father’s leadership is meaningless without the mother’s cooperation, and his so-called dominance is predicated upon the accord and happiness of the family he is charged with protecting and rearing.

There are certain roles that I just cannot do. I do not possess the kind of patient, nurturing, empathetic caregiver spirit that my wife is blessed with. There are times when my parenting style is not what my kids need, or times when I just don’t have the patience that she does in dealing with two whining, crying, complaining, house-wrecking, unappreciative, wonderful, cuddly, fun, precious awesome little boys.

There are other times, just as VITAL, but in a completely different sense, that my boys need someone to roughhouse and act stupid with, or, occasionally, they need to be made to understand an important lesson about a potentially dangerous truth in a way that (God how it annoys me that I have type out these parenthetical caveats typically) only a father can.

My wife and I complete each other. I do not hold myself above her, nor do I believe her to be one iota inferior to me. Indeed, she is a far better person than I am, and I consciously strive to be more like her. She is far less given to temptation or temper than I am. Much more patient. And orders of magnitude more selfless. I’m too often a slave to my passion and energy.

So, in what I hope to be my final definitive word on this subject in this thread, I would ask that people focus a little less on the dynamic of a power struggle (a false projection or outright misrepresentation) and a little more on that of a team of people, each fulfilling the role and duties for which he is biologically and innately suited, each working selflessly for the benefit of the whole before himself.

Does that make sense? [/quote]

After reading this I must come to the conclusion that you vastly underestimate how wonderful of a husband and father you must be. It is quite clear from this how much you love your wife and your boys. As lucky as you are to have her, it seems your wife and boys are equally lucky to have you as well. Very insightful post. As pretty much all your posts are.

Never responded to one of your posts before but was moved by this one :)[/quote]

Wow, thank you very much Marqaos!

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
All I know is that I would sooner spend the rest of my life with a Fleshlight than a dominating woman.

– ElbowStrike[/quote]

Lol!

One more thing -

Where there is an issue with controlling or critical behavior in a relationship, you can also look to OCD disorders , and anxiety. Some people feel the need to control everything because nobody else can do it right (perfectionism), because it feeds into their OCD (you can’t clean it well enough so I will try to do everything myself, make you feel like you just aren’t smart enough, or criticize you in an attempt to change your behavior). Related, people trying to cope with anxiety will often have issues with control.

I’ve often wondered about some of the more critical or controlling people I’ve met. These dynamics are complicated, and not always related to conflict related to gender roles. They can create a lot of dysfunction and unhappiness on either side, male or female. Can we talk about these problems without regard to gender roles? Nope. People have perceptions and expectations regarding gender. We could argue about which of those are cultural or based in biology, but to think that they have NO impact on behavior is more than a little crazy.

Some people like the idea of blending the masculine and feminine, so there are no categories. As I mentioned before, humans don’t work that way. Like the Dr. Seuss book, we are a bunch of star-bellied sneetches. We will find ways to categorize, and we cannot escape some basic biology here. There will always be male and female, I’d hope. How we cope with that, or adjust to it in a marriage is the interesting debate. You could carry the same argument into problems with racial and ethnic tension. If we would all just marry outside our own race, in a few generations we’d be blended and the problem would be solved, right? Look at history. You will find tribal, clan, or family distinctions regardless or race. People will find ways to categorize. There’s some interesting research about that too, but that’s another day.

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
One more thing -

Where there is an issue with controlling or critical behavior in a relationship, you can also look to OCD disorders , and anxiety. Some people feel the need to control everything because nobody else can do it right (perfectionism), because it feeds into their OCD (you can’t clean it well enough so I will try to do everything myself, make you feel like you just aren’t smart enough, or criticize you in an attempt to change your behavior). Related, people trying to cope with anxiety will often have issues with control.

I’ve often wondered about some of the more critical or controlling people I’ve met. These dynamics are complicated, and not always related to conflict related to gender roles. They can create a lot of dysfunction and unhappiness on either side, male or female. Can we talk about these problems without regard to gender roles? Nope. People have perceptions and expectations regarding gender. We could argue about which of those are cultural or based in biology, but to think that they have NO impact on behavior is more than a little crazy.

Some people like the idea of blending the masculine and feminine, so there are no categories. As I mentioned before, humans don’t work that way. Like the Dr. Seuss book, we are a bunch of star-bellied sneetches. We will find ways to categorize, and we cannot escape some basic biology here. There will always be male and female, I’d hope. How we cope with that, or adjust to it in a marriage is the interesting debate. You could carry the same argument into problems with racial and ethnic tension. If we would all just marry outside our own race, in a few generations we’d be blended and the problem would be solved, right? Look at history. You will find tribal, clan, or family distinctions regardless or race. People will find ways to categorize. There’s some interesting research about that too, but that’s another day.

[/quote]

Yes to the anxiety-based control. That’s how I see my ex-husband. I once read an article about “neurotic perfectionism,” which, while not a recognized DSM IV disorder, seemed to match him. A lot of fear, OCD, anxiety, perfectionism. Which makes him sound worse than he is, these qualities were just part of the whole and not an issue all the time. But when they were, they were.

Anyway, I’ve really enjoyed this thread. I’m headed out to spend the long weekend with the boyfriend’s family (gulp) so probably won’t be back, but I have been following to this point. Good job, PP!

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I’m headed out to spend the long weekend with the boyfriend’s family (gulp)…

[/quote]

Are you reenacting Valentine’s Day or sumthin?
[/quote]

I was going to get him sex and meatloaf for his birthday, but then I thought why not drive ten hours each way to spend four days with his parents instead? So that’s what we’re doing.

It’s the first time in a long time I’ve gone to a boys house. We had to officially talk about sleeping arrangements because we’re not married! Hahahaha. (We are sleeping together.) He was talking to his mom the other day and I heard him say “Just, you know, regular food. Anything.” And then a minute later he told her that I eat a lot of eggs. WTF.

I’m looking forward to it, though. I hope they’re as much fun as my drunken Uncle Jimmy!

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
One more thing -

Where there is an issue with controlling or critical behavior in a relationship, you can also look to OCD disorders , and anxiety. Some people feel the need to control everything because nobody else can do it right (perfectionism), because it feeds into their OCD (you can’t clean it well enough so I will try to do everything myself, make you feel like you just aren’t smart enough, or criticize you in an attempt to change your behavior). Related, people trying to cope with anxiety will often have issues with control.

[/quote]

To be a bit more accurate, perhaps you mean OCPD?[/quote]

Hey Chush! Yes and thank you. I wanted to describe behavior there because I was thinking of people who have aspects of this, but maybe not something that’s really pervasive.

Example - I knew a girl in high school whose dad wouldn’t let her go anywhere after school. She wasn’t allowed to go to dances, or basketball games, or anything in the evening. She was a really good kid, so I didn’t understand why he was so over-protective. I don’t know if he was like that with his wife, but lets assume that he was like that with her as well. He might be acting on a need to protect, or it could be an expression of anxiety. Maybe he’s worried about kids getting in a car accident, or his daughter running with the wrong kids, whatever. You could speculate about what he might be protecting his wife from. Ha! Anyway, stress reduction can be a pretty powerful motivator. Or, maybe he’s just a domineering jerk who has to control everybody. :slight_smile: It’s interesting, because the anxiety response is related to an acute stress response, right? Under threat, people will exhibit some “fight or flight” behavior. Fight is pretty close to the “protect my wife and cubs”, but in this case it’s gone haywire.

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
One more thing -

Where there is an issue with controlling or critical behavior in a relationship, you can also look to OCD disorders , and anxiety. Some people feel the need to control everything because nobody else can do it right (perfectionism), because it feeds into their OCD (you can’t clean it well enough so I will try to do everything myself, make you feel like you just aren’t smart enough, or criticize you in an attempt to change your behavior). Related, people trying to cope with anxiety will often have issues with control.

I’ve often wondered about some of the more critical or controlling people I’ve met. These dynamics are complicated, and not always related to conflict related to gender roles. They can create a lot of dysfunction and unhappiness on either side, male or female. Can we talk about these problems without regard to gender roles? Nope. People have perceptions and expectations regarding gender. We could argue about which of those are cultural or based in biology, but to think that they have NO impact on behavior is more than a little crazy.

Some people like the idea of blending the masculine and feminine, so there are no categories. As I mentioned before, humans don’t work that way. Like the Dr. Seuss book, we are a bunch of star-bellied sneetches. We will find ways to categorize, and we cannot escape some basic biology here. There will always be male and female, I’d hope. How we cope with that, or adjust to it in a marriage is the interesting debate. You could carry the same argument into problems with racial and ethnic tension. If we would all just marry outside our own race, in a few generations we’d be blended and the problem would be solved, right? Look at history. You will find tribal, clan, or family distinctions regardless or race. People will find ways to categorize. There’s some interesting research about that too, but that’s another day.

[/quote]

Yes to the anxiety-based control. That’s how I see my ex-husband. I once read an article about “neurotic perfectionism,” which, while not a recognized DSM IV disorder, seemed to match him. A lot of fear, OCD, anxiety, perfectionism. Which makes him sound worse than he is, these qualities were just part of the whole and not an issue all the time. But when they were, they were.

Anyway, I’ve really enjoyed this thread. I’m headed out to spend the long weekend with the boyfriend’s family (gulp) so probably won’t be back, but I have been following to this point. Good job, PP!

[/quote]

Thanks, Emily. I’ve enjoyed the discussion so much. You sound like a very introspective person. A lot of people never get past seeing their ex as “the controlling bastard”. It says a lot about you, that you can see the layers, and have been able to retain a kind of friendship. Nice. Thanks for sharing.

You asked if I worked in a female-dominated workplace. Yes. When I was working full-time, the diagnostic team I headed up was almost entirely women. Now I work a bit from home, and work very part-time at the university here. Nearly all my close friends are women or mutual couple-friends. Some of the conversations here are really interesting because I get to hear how the other half thinks. Sometimes I feel like I’m on Mars, but honestly I think it’s helped me “get” men better. That was part of my motivation in putting up this thread. Besides, lifting is a passion for me, so it’s nice to have a place to talk to knowledgeable peeps. Still, probably 80% of my posts on this site are me talking to other women about their lifting.

Take care and enjoy your weekend. I was hoping for some beach weather, but I don’t think it’s gonna happen.


There have been so many thoughtful, and articulate responses here. Thanks everyone!

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I’m headed out to spend the long weekend with the boyfriend’s family (gulp)…

[/quote]

Are you reenacting Valentine’s Day or sumthin?
[/quote]

I was going to get him sex and meatloaf for his birthday, but then I thought why not drive ten hours each way to spend four days with his parents instead? So that’s what we’re doing.

It’s the first time in a long time I’ve gone to a boys house. We had to officially talk about sleeping arrangements because we’re not married! Hahahaha. (We are sleeping together.) He was talking to his mom the other day and I heard him say “Just, you know, regular food. Anything.” And then a minute later he told her that I eat a lot of eggs. WTF.

I’m looking forward to it, though. I hope they’re as much fun as my drunken Uncle Jimmy![/quote]

Where were you going to “get him (this) sex” you speak of?

And what were you planning on putting in the meatloaf?

What type of road sex do you plan?

Plan on trying any new positions while in his childhood home?

How do you like your eggs?[/quote]

LOL! This brought back memories of tip-toeing around my future in-law’s house in the middle of the night. That was a long time ago. Good times.

Perhaps in the human species nature intended for females to be the more dominant ones, I do recall reading somewhere that in most hunter gatherer societies a matriarch is the boss, and to quote Chris Rock “It is physically impossible for a man to win an argument with a woman.” LOl

[quote]prestonjwes wrote:
I do recall reading somewhere that in most hunter gatherer societies a matriarch is the boss.[/quote]

I suspect that’s why they never made it past the hunter-gatherer stage. Men were too busy being nagged and running petty errands to sit some time alone and think, “I spilled a pot of seeds on that spot before winter… and now there are sprouts. Could there be a connection?”

I can just imagine the scene next day, “Ogg!? WHAT in the HELL are you doing with those seeds!? We need those for DINNER! Stop burying them in the ground this instant – it’s disgusting! Oh, now they’re all covered in dirt – do you see what you did!? What is WRONG with you!? I swear to the Gods you men just don’t THINK! Now I have to wash these – oh! Get out of my sight and don’t come back without a fresh kill you moron!”

Meanwhile, in the Patriarchy on the other side of the mountain:

“Ugg? What are you doing?”
“No touch woman! My dirt! My seeds! Ugg try new thing! YOU NO WRECK! NO TOUCH!”

A generation later the Ogg are overrun by the better-fed tribes-people of the Ugg clan.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
I’m headed out to spend the long weekend with the boyfriend’s family (gulp)…

[/quote]

Are you reenacting Valentine’s Day or sumthin?
[/quote]

I was going to get him sex and meatloaf for his birthday, but then I thought why not drive ten hours each way to spend four days with his parents instead? So that’s what we’re doing.

It’s the first time in a long time I’ve gone to a boys house. We had to officially talk about sleeping arrangements because we’re not married! Hahahaha. (We are sleeping together.) He was talking to his mom the other day and I heard him say “Just, you know, regular food. Anything.” And then a minute later he told her that I eat a lot of eggs. WTF.

I’m looking forward to it, though. I hope they’re as much fun as my drunken Uncle Jimmy![/quote]

Where were you going to “get him (this) sex” you speak of?

And what were you planning on putting in the meatloaf?

What type of road sex do you plan?

Plan on trying any new positions while in his childhood home?

How do you like your eggs?[/quote]

Fertilized or unfertilized? lmao!