Furo's Kettlebell Log

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]furo wrote:
Booksbikesbeer: Yeah over the past couple of days since I’ve been working on fully extending but also fully bracing my abs and glutes I’ve found that it doesn’t actually hurt my lower back at all. In fact it feels much better. It seems that bracing the abs and glutes is the key. So fully extending and bracing is definitely a permanent change, and I thank you for it tremendously!

I’d be really interested to hear how both of you, booksbikesbeer and young n, usually train. I really appreciate your insights in this log.[/quote]

I just saw this after I posted the last post. Glad to see that what I had to say is helping. Made my day, I know, I know I’m blowing my own horn.[/quote]

Yeah man I’m really grateful for your input in this log!

[quote]furo wrote:
My upper arms were always 16.5" cold and flexed, whereas now they are … damn I can’t find my tapemeasure. I’ll get back to you on that one. I’d guess around 15.5".
[/quote]

I hate to say this but if biceps are a concern/priority then I think there are better ways/programs to use then S&S.
Correct me if 'm wrong or misunderstood your post.

[quote]furo wrote:

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]furo wrote:
Booksbikesbeer: Yeah over the past couple of days since I’ve been working on fully extending but also fully bracing my abs and glutes I’ve found that it doesn’t actually hurt my lower back at all. In fact it feels much better. It seems that bracing the abs and glutes is the key. So fully extending and bracing is definitely a permanent change, and I thank you for it tremendously!

I’d be really interested to hear how both of you, booksbikesbeer and young n, usually train. I really appreciate your insights in this log.[/quote]

I just saw this after I posted the last post. Glad to see that what I had to say is helping. Made my day, I know, I know I’m blowing my own horn.[/quote]

Yeah man I’m really grateful for your input in this log![/quote]

Look into the drill that I mentioned above, along with that try some hollow body holds and supermans, should help with the . . . core/lower back issues.

Stay strong brother

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:

[quote]furo wrote:
What you say is accurate booksbikesbeer - I definitely did not fully extend at the hips. I’ve developed a bad habit of cutting my extension short for fear of hyperextending my spine and re-injuring my lower back, but since you guys brought it up I’ve been working hard on rectifying it. [/quote]

Yeah, that is a tough one. Coming back to the swings now after a few weeks off, I’m most fatigued in my lower back. And many people will tell you that swings should never hurt your back. I wouldn’t say I hurt, but I’m feeling it.[/quote]

Yeah about the whole feeling it in the lower back, I just call it lower back conditioning, its normal in my book (and I say that knowing, assuming, you have good form.) A few more session/workouts/maybe even a week or two and you wont feel them in the lower back (as much.)

[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
I hope focusing on it allows you to find that sweet spot where the hips tuck under you and your back feels really strong. For me, also thinking about bracing the lower abs can help me keep that straight line.[/quote]

Now you say that you “brace your lower abs” Are you doing the “RKC hardstyle breaths” or whatever the hell term is for them? I ask because breathing like that usually causes PPT (posterior pelvic tilt) so the lower abs get braced because of the PPT or vice versa. So are you consciously doing that (bracing your lower abs)?
I usually cue to squeeze the arse and the abs (the whole abs, not just lower)
Drills that I use to drill in that position: plank on forearms (be prepared for me to be kicking you in your abs while your down there, lightly at first, so on a scale of 1-10, 1 being easy and 10 full power, will start off with a 1 and get up to a 3/4 tops, I also do this to the sides of the core/abs and to the glutes) from the position you progress to a push up plank/hold and usually by then the athletes have it down, Disclaimer this drill is just a teaching/proprioceptive tool)

Stray strong bother[/quote]

Thanks for the compliments, young n. And I do think you’re right, another couple of days and my lower back will be a little more conditioned.

And I do breathe how you describe. A short, crisp exhale at the top of each swing. You are right that it naturally engages all the abs and the lats. The only time I don’t do this is when I’m doing longer swing sessions, then I just work to keep the abs braced and breathe whenever I can.

As far as consciously bracing my abs? I think I can say yes. The swing is complicated, and I often focus on different parts of it. The big ones for me are the crisp exhale and a hard contraction of my quads, glutes, abs, and lats at the same time. If I can get them all.

I also practice that plank in my office from time to time, but I haven’t asked anyone to kick me just yet.

That’s cool you implement kettlebells. Like you, I think they are a good tool. There are many tools, though. For some reason kettlebells just happen to be my favorite lately. I’d say I spend about 2/3 of my time on predominantly kettlebell programs and 1/3 of my time on predominantly barbell programs. I don’t have a log on here. I’m mostly just a big reader of the articles and other logs. Perhaps I should get one so I don’t take up all of furo’s log.

[quote]furo wrote:
Booksbikesbeer: Yeah over the past couple of days since I’ve been working on fully extending but also fully bracing my abs and glutes I’ve found that it doesn’t actually hurt my lower back at all. In fact it feels much better. It seems that bracing the abs and glutes is the key. So fully extending and bracing is definitely a permanent change, and I thank you for it tremendously!

I’d be really interested to hear how both of you, booksbikesbeer and young n, usually train. I really appreciate your insights in this log.[/quote]

Hey furo,

My training is very simple, and it is quite similar to yours (from what I can tell). I’m attracted to the minimalist programs and full body movements that Pavel, Dan John, and others like so much. I don’t really train for any specific thing, just life. I want to be fit, move well, and feel good.

As I mentioned, I’m back on S and S with the 32kg bell at the moment. I got kicked in the calf by a horse about 6 weeks ago, so this is the comeback program. I’ll probably stick with it all summer as my schedule is not consistent during that time, and I can plug these workouts in whenever I want.

Before that, I was on the ROP with my 28kg bell. I was on it for about 7 or 8 weeks before the injury. In another month or so I would have completed the 5 ladders to 5 rungs. I will definitely get back to this program, but probably not until the fall.

In January and February I had my first go around with S and S. Really liked it, and I felt great. I hit the simple standards in the book, and that was pretty tough.

In October, November and December of last year I was doing classic 5 x 5 barbell stuff. One day was zercher squat, overhead press, and weighted pullups. The next day was deadlift, overhead press, and weighted pullups. I workout in my basement at home, so all I have are a bunch of kettlebells and a barbell on the floor. Hence no exercises that require racks or spotters.

And that’s pretty much a snapshot of what I do. I’ve been doing this for a few years now. I came from an endurance background (cycling, running, nordic skiing). Now I lift and ride/train horses. I’ve put on 25 pounds of muscle in those few years, but I’m still on the thin side at 6’1" and 175 pounds. I’d like to see what another 10 pounds of muscle would look and feel like, but I’m in no rush. Just taking my time with things.

I hope that gives you an idea of what I’m up to. Feel free to ask for more specifics on anything you’d like.

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]furo wrote:
My upper arms were always 16.5" cold and flexed, whereas now they are … damn I can’t find my tapemeasure. I’ll get back to you on that one. I’d guess around 15.5".
[/quote]

I hate to say this but if biceps are a concern/priority then I think there are better ways/programs to use then S&S.
Correct me if 'm wrong or misunderstood your post.[/quote]

Lol you definitely misunderstood my man. Biceps are incredibly low on the priority list, it was just for comparison. Back when biceps were a priority to me, I’d have been able to tell you to the millimetre any day of the week haha. But at the same time it feels a little weird to lose something you’ve worked hard for.

[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
Hey furo,

My training is very simple, and it is quite similar to yours (from what I can tell). I’m attracted to the minimalist programs and full body movements that Pavel, Dan John, and others like so much. I don’t really train for any specific thing, just life. I want to be fit, move well, and feel good.

As I mentioned, I’m back on S and S with the 32kg bell at the moment. I got kicked in the calf by a horse about 6 weeks ago, so this is the comeback program. I’ll probably stick with it all summer as my schedule is not consistent during that time, and I can plug these workouts in whenever I want.

Before that, I was on the ROP with my 28kg bell. I was on it for about 7 or 8 weeks before the injury. In another month or so I would have completed the 5 ladders to 5 rungs. I will definitely get back to this program, but probably not until the fall.

In January and February I had my first go around with S and S. Really liked it, and I felt great. I hit the simple standards in the book, and that was pretty tough.

In October, November and December of last year I was doing classic 5 x 5 barbell stuff. One day was zercher squat, overhead press, and weighted pullups. The next day was deadlift, overhead press, and weighted pullups. I workout in my basement at home, so all I have are a bunch of kettlebells and a barbell on the floor. Hence no exercises that require racks or spotters.

And that’s pretty much a snapshot of what I do. I’ve been doing this for a few years now. I came from an endurance background (cycling, running, nordic skiing). Now I lift and ride/train horses. I’ve put on 25 pounds of muscle in those few years, but I’m still on the thin side at 6’1" and 175 pounds. I’d like to see what another 10 pounds of muscle would look and feel like, but I’m in no rush. Just taking my time with things.

I hope that gives you an idea of what I’m up to. Feel free to ask for more specifics on anything you’d like.[/quote]

Thanks so much for the detailed breakdown! I’m really sorry to hear about your injury, but at least that makes for a good story. Not to make light of the situation. I wish you a speedy recovery!

It’s great to hear that we share such similar training philosophies and methods. I’d definitely really be interested in following a log if you decide to make one, and I’m sure many others would too!

Congratulations on hitting the simple standards! Did you time them too? How did you find fitting all of the swings into 5 minutes? That seems like the hardest bit to me, but I’m quite unfit.

What is ROP like? I’ve got Enter the Kettlebell, but I haven’t tried it. The thing that put my off was the idea of doing a lot of upper body pushing without any direct pulling. Do you find that the clean worked your back adequately? I think alternating between blocks of ROP and S&S would be an excellent way to train and I may well start doing that once I’m up to an acceptable standard on S&S.

That is awesome that you train horses. I know little about them, but I’m from a bit of a country bumpkin background myself lol. It must be hard work, but also I imagine very rewarding. I see you are from Iowa, I’d love to visit the midwest someday. It seems like my kind of place.

Btw I haven’t trained today. No excuses really, just don’t feel like it. Stuck to the diet plan though.

[quote]furo wrote:
The thing that put my off was the idea of doing a lot of upper body pushing without any direct pulling. Do you find that the clean worked your back adequately?
[/quote]

If I remember correctly it is recommended that you do a pull up or row somewhere.
And again its been so long I can’t even remember what the program was.

Furo, I will hopefully have a little description of how I train in a few weeks time. Just dealing with some stuff right now and lacking the motivation to go to the gym.

Stay strong

[quote]furo wrote:

[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
Hey furo,

My training is very simple, and it is quite similar to yours (from what I can tell). I’m attracted to the minimalist programs and full body movements that Pavel, Dan John, and others like so much. I don’t really train for any specific thing, just life. I want to be fit, move well, and feel good.

As I mentioned, I’m back on S and S with the 32kg bell at the moment. I got kicked in the calf by a horse about 6 weeks ago, so this is the comeback program. I’ll probably stick with it all summer as my schedule is not consistent during that time, and I can plug these workouts in whenever I want.

Before that, I was on the ROP with my 28kg bell. I was on it for about 7 or 8 weeks before the injury. In another month or so I would have completed the 5 ladders to 5 rungs. I will definitely get back to this program, but probably not until the fall.

In January and February I had my first go around with S and S. Really liked it, and I felt great. I hit the simple standards in the book, and that was pretty tough.

In October, November and December of last year I was doing classic 5 x 5 barbell stuff. One day was zercher squat, overhead press, and weighted pullups. The next day was deadlift, overhead press, and weighted pullups. I workout in my basement at home, so all I have are a bunch of kettlebells and a barbell on the floor. Hence no exercises that require racks or spotters.

And that’s pretty much a snapshot of what I do. I’ve been doing this for a few years now. I came from an endurance background (cycling, running, nordic skiing). Now I lift and ride/train horses. I’ve put on 25 pounds of muscle in those few years, but I’m still on the thin side at 6’1" and 175 pounds. I’d like to see what another 10 pounds of muscle would look and feel like, but I’m in no rush. Just taking my time with things.

I hope that gives you an idea of what I’m up to. Feel free to ask for more specifics on anything you’d like.[/quote]

Thanks so much for the detailed breakdown! I’m really sorry to hear about your injury, but at least that makes for a good story. Not to make light of the situation. I wish you a speedy recovery!

It’s great to hear that we share such similar training philosophies and methods. I’d definitely really be interested in following a log if you decide to make one, and I’m sure many others would too!

Congratulations on hitting the simple standards! Did you time them too? How did you find fitting all of the swings into 5 minutes? That seems like the hardest bit to me, but I’m quite unfit.

What is ROP like? I’ve got Enter the Kettlebell, but I haven’t tried it. The thing that put my off was the idea of doing a lot of upper body pushing without any direct pulling. Do you find that the clean worked your back adequately? I think alternating between blocks of ROP and S&S would be an excellent way to train and I may well start doing that once I’m up to an acceptable standard on S&S.

That is awesome that you train horses. I know little about them, but I’m from a bit of a country bumpkin background myself lol. It must be hard work, but also I imagine very rewarding. I see you are from Iowa, I’d love to visit the midwest someday. It seems like my kind of place.

[/quote]

I think I’m about fully recovered from the injury. I’ve only got a small knot on the outside of my shin bone. I wish I could say it came with a good story, but in this case I was doctoring an injured horse and got some “help” from a person with a less patient training philosphy than my own. The horse got agitated, and I’m the one who got kicked. I should have prevented it. Live and learn.

As far as working towards the simple standards, I did time things. But not all the time. I hit the get ups in 10 minutes very early. I’ve always been stronger on those. With swings, grip was definitely the limiting factor. For the first few weeks I didn’t time anything. Then I would occasionally time them by glancing at my alarm clock. When I noticed I was starting at like 5:16 and finishing at 5:23 I figured I was “around” 7 minutes. From there I would occasionally time them with a stop watch. I got it down to 5:50 or so in the next couple of weeks. Then I didn’t time them again until I felt super strong and just went for the sub-5. I got 4:40-something and felt quite good. I did it again a few weeks later and again felt good.

The ROP is definitely a fun program. I’ve gone through it five or six times now, though I have not hit the end goal of pressing half bodyweight and snatching the 24kg 200 times in 10 minutes (170 is my best, but I’ve only tested the 10 minutes once).

For me, the cleans definitely count as a pull, but perhaps not quite as much as a direct (maybe not the right word) pull. They work my back, traps, and shoulders quite nicely. As young n mentioned, the book does recommend supersetting your clean and press ladders with a pull, a row if need be, but preferably pull ups. Every time I’ve done the program I have incorporated the pull ups.

The book recommends getting your pull ups to a 5 to 8 rep max load. So if you can do more, then add weight. When I do this I end up suffering a bit in my elbows. So I usually just add more bodyweight pull ups. In my last go around of the ROP I was doing 5 reps after each press ladder. So on the long days I was doing 80 to 100 pull ups. If I kept this up it would top out at 125. During these weeks my shoulders and back felt better than any other time in my life. And I will definitely continue to explore this idea of high total reps through lots of light sets.

If there is one downside to the ROP it is a lack of leg work. Obviously they get worked in the swing, but there is not much range of motion. So I like to add something on the variety days. This past go around I would do double kettlebell front squats with 2-24kg bells. I started with lower reps and worked up to 10 x 10. But the big thing to keep in mind is the variety is not the main workout. I always have to consciously keep them easy and sometimes skip things if they feel like too much.

One of my favorite things about the ROP is how linear your progression is on it. Each week you’re pushing more and getting stronger (obviously other programs are like this, too). I will definitely keep using it at least once or twice a year until I hit the press and snatch standards. And I think your idea of rotating with S and S could keep you busy for a while.

You are in the UK, right? My sister in law is from Darlington, and my wife and I were lucky enough to spend a month in northern England and Scotland a while back. I can’t wait to get back and visit. The loved countryside and everyone we met was super friendly. I think you’d find something similar if you visited the midwest.

Thanks young n. Sorry to hear that stuff is going on and affecting your motivation. I hope it gets sorted out soon brother.

Sounds like a nasty injury booksbikesbeer, it must be very frustrating. Thanks for the detail on ROP, you’ve definitely inspired me to give it a bash at some point. And great job doing the Simple standards timed! I’m definitely in the same boat - swings are weaker than the TGUs, and specifically it’s my grip that lets me down first. Grip and conditioning.

Yeah I’m from the UK. I was raised in Scotland, and will return there shortly, but I’m currently at university in England. Whereabouts in Scotland did you visit? I visited Edinburgh last weekend, it’s one of my favourite cities in the world (I’m not from there though). Definitely let me know if you are planning on visiting again!

Today I didn’t train again - I went straight from uni to airsoft and did that for four hours. So at least got some activity in! My commute Mon-Wed is a 90 minute drive at the moment, which really takes it out of me. I’ve been listening to Nelson Mandela’s autobiography A Long Walk to Freedom audiobook but finished that yesterday. Damn the end almost brought a tear to my eye! lol. My nutrition today was fine, I’m sure I didn’t get much protein, but overall calories were right and I think that is the main thing.

Tough stuff with the commute. I know that can be a killer. My dad struggles with a long one, too. I’m extremely fortunate to be able to walk to and from work, so I always use the walk home as part of my warmup for my workout.

It was four years ago this May that we traveled to Scotland and England. We flew into Glasgow and spent a little time there, then we did the West Highland Way. That was a truly fantastic experience. We’d done a lot of backpacking in the states, but nothing had the wonderful mix of gorgeous scenery and getting to know people and small towns.

From there we took a train down to Newcastle to hangout with my brother in law and sister in law. We explored around there for about 10 days or so. Then we went back north to Northumberland for their wedding.

It was an awesome trip, and we will definitely be going back. I want to spend some time in Edinburgh (my wife spent a year in Wales and traveled up to Edinburgh a lot, she also says it’s one of her favorite cities) and also go on another long walk in the highlands. We’ll be sure to look you up if we’re headed that way!

Yeah it’s not great, but I don’t have long left now. 1 week and 1 day left as a student! That’s a scary thought, although it has been 6 years so it is definitely time to move on lol.

It sounds like you really got to see some great bits of the UK! I’ve never done the West Highland Way myself but my sister did it last summer and the photos looked incredible! And Northumberland is beautiful too.

Simple and Sinister Day 41
Single Arm Swings (5x10): 28kg (8:45)
Turkish Get-Ups (5x1): 28kg

Bodyweight: 95.9kg

Nutrition: 2,300kcal; 220g protein, 205g carbs, 60g fat.

This session felt great, I’m so happy about how much easier the 28kg TGUs feel now.

Rows
I’ve been thinking of adding in a third movement, and I think rows would be best. My preferred row variation is sometimes referred to as a “gorilla row”, basically just like a standard dumbbell row but with both feet on the ground, not one kneeling on a bench. I don’t know if it sounds condescending that I wrote it all out like that, it’s just I rarely see people call it a “gorilla row” and I wanted explain exactly what I meant.

I feel like the gorilla row fits in with Simple and Sinister in that, although it is primarily a row, it does involve most of the body: especially the core and legs if you do longer sets.

Anyway, the things I really like about the gorilla row are:

  1. In my opinion the upper back is the best-looking muscle group.
  2. Rowing counters my hunched posture.
  3. I don’t feel swings hit the upper back sufficiently.
  4. It’s always been my favourite exercise to do.
  5. It is very joint friendly.
  6. It is convenient and fits with my equipment.
  7. Something about it just feels a bit beastly, like ripping something out of the ground. Lol.

What do you folks think about me adding it in, and how I should programme it? 28kg isn’t going to be great, as when I was in Australia I did 5x10 with 40kg, but I could start doing them now and work in the 40kg when I get it.

Should you do gorilla rows?

I think I’m going to go with yes. Often people respond to questions about adding to or changing programs with extreme negativity. I’m a big fan of exploring with changes. I think you’ll learn so much more by playing around with something than if someone just tells you to do 3 x 5 a couple times a week or tells you outright to not do it.

So do it.

I will say that I don’t think I would add this particular exercise to my own workout. You’ve certainly got a bigger (and most likely stronger) back than I do, so maybe that is why you feel the need for something extra in that department and I don’t. I find both the swing and the TGU (specifically the roll to elbow) work my upper back quite a bit.

But the gorilla row is one of your favorite exercises, and you’ve been doing S and S for many, many weeks now, so I can’t see a reason why not to try to combine them.

How do you plan on mixing it in? Daily, lighter practice? Or hit it harder 2 or 3 times a week? Before S and S? After? Something else? I’m just curious. Towards the end of my first stint on S and S I started adding some pull ups right after my get ups. Just doing however many I felt like doing. One big set. 3 x 8. One light set, whatever. It seemed fine, but that is the only time I’ve added anything to the program, so I’m curious about other options and hearing how they work for people.

Furo, how long does it take you get through your session? 20 mins, 45 mins, 1 hour.

Booksbikesbeer, how long did it take you when you ran the Simple and Sinister program?

Anybody else?

[quote]young n wrote:
Furo, how long does it take you get through your session? 20 mins, 45 mins, 1 hour.

Booksbikesbeer, how long did it take you when you ran the Simple and Sinister program?

Anybody else?[/quote]

When I first started it took about 40 minutes. After I dialed in the warmup movements (and the amount of weight I should use for them) and got more proficient in the main exercises, it came down to about 25 minutes. I never rushed it, though. I also never timed it exactly, I’d just look at the clock and figure about how much time I was spending on things.

Right now, as I’m still getting back in shape, it is taking between 30 and 35 minutes.

So my guess is that most people would spend 20 to 45 minutes on it depending on how challenging their weight is for them.

Young n: It takes 30min if I’m being prompt: 5min warm-up; 10min swings; 5min rest; 10min TGUs. But quite often I’ll take things slower and it’ll be more like 45 min.

Booksbikesbeer: Thanks for your input man, I will definitely add them in. My current thinking is this: continue as I am for the next 10 days or so (S&S every day with 28kg). Then my term ends and I’m heading home for a week, and I’m probably going camping for most of it with my brother (I’ll take my 28kg home with me, just so I can get the odd S&S session in). Then I’m coming back down here for a month, and that’s when I’ll implement my new plan:

  1. Single Arm Swings: 5x10
  2. Turkish Get-Ups: 5x1
  3. Gorilla Rows: 5x10

At that time I’ll buy the 40kg KB and start working it in on all three exercises. I’ll train one day on, one day off, because I don’t recover particularly quickly and that will only slow down when I add the 40kg.

Long-term I’ll stick with this plan until I can do all sets and reps with a 48kg KB (i.e. the Sinister goals). I have no time limit for that: it would be nice to do it by New Years, but I’m in no rush.

What do you think?

Simple and Sinister Day 42
Single Arm Swings (5x10): 28kg (9:23)
Turkish Get-Ups (5x1): 28kg

Bodyweight: 95.4kg

Nutrition: 2,3000kcal, 150g protein, 180g carbs, 90g fat

This session went well. I deviated from my usual diet and had salmon today, which left me quite hungry because it’s so calorie dense (much higher fat intake today). I think I’m going to have a cheat day on Sunday to help get me through lol.

EDIT: uuurgh so hungry. That is all.

[quote]furo wrote:
Young n: It takes 30min if I’m being prompt: 5min warm-up; 10min swings; 5min rest; 10min TGUs. But quite often I’ll take things slower and it’ll be more like 45 min.

  1. Single Arm Swings: 5x10
  2. Turkish Get-Ups: 5x1
  3. Gorilla Rows: 5x10

What do you think?[/quote]

I assume you only have your KBs and rings,
I would superset the Gorilla Rows with an overhead press, and on another day pull ups with a floor press.

You could add in variations of a squat, deadlift, horizontal and vertical push and pull, and I think your covered. You could add in 1 or 2 of these moves at the end of the session like I mentioned above or (gash! get ready for it) even superset them with the swings and get ups and your getting a lot of work done in a short period of time. Thumbs up on work capacity.

Stay strong brother

[quote]young n wrote:

I assume you only have your KBs and rings,
I would superset the Gorilla Rows with an overhead press, and on another day pull ups with a floor press.

You could add in variations of a squat, deadlift, horizontal and vertical push and pull, and I think your covered. You could add in 1 or 2 of these moves at the end of the session like I mentioned above or (gash! get ready for it) even superset them with the swings and get ups and your getting a lot of work done in a short period of time. Thumbs up on work capacity.

Stay strong brother[/quote]

That sounds like a good plan, but I’m going to stick with what I wrote.

My reasoning is that Simple and Sinister is a stand alone complete routine, so it doesn’t need any additions. I’m just adding the gorilla rows, basically because I feel like it, but I don’t see a need to add any other movements.

I always used to strictly believe Dan John’s principal of always including a push, pull, squat, hinge and carry, but my views on the matter have changed.