[quote]furo wrote:
I always used to strictly believe Dan John’s principal of always including a push, pull, squat, hinge and carry, but my views on the matter have changed.
[/quote]
Can I ask why your view have changed?
[quote]young n wrote:
[quote]furo wrote:
I always used to strictly believe Dan John’s principal of always including a push, pull, squat, hinge and carry, but my views on the matter have changed.
[/quote]
Can I ask why your view have changed?[/quote]
Well, let me start by saying that I think it is a really good rule in general, I just don’t believe it’s 100% essential. It’s basically because over the course of this log (and before it) I’ve experimented a lot with minimalism and with seeing if I can achieve the same results by doing less and less, and at the moment I’m not doing a carry, a pull or a push and athletically I think I’m in the best shape of my life right now. All I’m really doing is a hinge, and goblet squatting in my warm-up. And the TGU, but I have no idea what to categorise that as lol.
My view is that it’s not so much that those are essential movements, but more that if you do them all you will cover all of your bases. But that’s not to say all of your bases can’t be covered by other means.
I’m not sure it’s fair to call a swing a hinge. I mean, sure, that’s the basic movement, but I’d say it’s far more than that. I’d almost consider it to provide the same benefits of a hinge, pull and carry, all at once. If I were to define a carry in terms of the body, it’s basically… a dynamic movement with a repetitive asymmetric load that challenges the entire body’s stability through multiple planes of motion (along with, of course, core stability).
And the TGU? You’ve got a press and a squat built in, along with “groundwork” as per some of his more recent writings.
So while you can certainly do a squat, deadlift, press, row, and farmers walk to cover all your bases… you’re getting all of that in two movements.
My 2 cents.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’m not sure it’s fair to call a swing a hinge. I mean, sure, that’s the basic movement, but I’d say it’s far more than that. I’d almost consider it to provide the same benefits of a hinge, pull and carry, all at once. If I were to define a carry in terms of the body, it’s basically… a dynamic movement with a repetitive asymmetric load that challenges the entire body’s stability through multiple planes of motion (along with, of course, core stability).[/quote]
True that the swing affects your posterior chain, grip, lats, and all that but what are you trying to get accomplished? Build mass? Lose fat? Increase athleticism? Bench 400? Swing a 48kg KB in 5 minutes?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’d almost consider it to provide the same benefits of a hinge, pull and carry, all at once.[/quote]
I’m not really sure how to interpret that. While it does provide some of the benefits as a pull and a carry it doesn’t come as close as a pull or carry movement would, of course they are people who will think otherwise, and everybody is entitled to their opinion.
Yes and no, at least in my opinion.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
So while you can certainly do a squat, deadlift, press, row, and farmers walk to cover all your bases… you’re getting all of that in two movements.
[/quote]
No, you can not get all those things in just two movements. Just my opinion.
Funny thing is Coach Dan John has been coaching for a while, and has been exposed to kettlebells for a while too, yet he still feels like there is more to it than just swings and get ups. Swings and get ups are part of his programs but they don’t make his whole program.
Even in Rite of Passage of Enter the Kettlebell, have swings, get ups, clean and presses, snatches and a pull movement if preferred, you got everything but the carry.
[quote]young n wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’d almost consider it to provide the same benefits of a hinge, pull and carry, all at once.[/quote]
I’m not really sure how to interpret that. While it does provide some of the benefits as a pull and a carry it doesn’t come as close as a pull or carry movement would, of course they are people who will think otherwise, and everybody is entitled to their opinion.[/quote]
Semantics, my friend. I was careful here with “I’d almost consider”, rather than being more definitive.
I was not so careful here:
[quote][quote]LoRez wrote:
So while you can certainly do a squat, deadlift, press, row, and farmers walk to cover all your bases… you’re getting all of that in two movements.
[/quote]
No, you can not get all those things in just two movements. Just my opinion.[/quote]
I will say that you can get most of the benefits of a more comprehensive program with those two movements. Much like the power clean/push-press combo. Packing about as much as you can into as few movements as you can.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
[quote]young n wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I’d almost consider it to provide the same benefits of a hinge, pull and carry, all at once.[/quote]
I’m not really sure how to interpret that. While it does provide SOME of the benefits as a pull and a carry it doesn’t come as close as a pull or carry movement would, of course they are people who will think otherwise, and everybody is entitled to their opinion.[/quote]
Semantics, my friend. I was careful here with “I’d almost consider”, rather than being more definitive.[/quote]
Yes indeed just like how I said ^ in the bold.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I was not so careful here:
[quote][quote]LoRez wrote:
So while you can certainly do a squat, deadlift, press, row, and farmers walk to cover all your bases… you’re getting all of that in two movements.
[/quote]
No, you can not get all those things in just two movements. Just my opinion.[/quote]
I will say that you can get most of the benefits of a more comprehensive program with those two movements. Much like the power clean/push-press combo. Packing about as much as you can into as few movements as you can.[/quote]
I will say that a kettlebell clean and press and a Olympic weightlifting clean and press with barbell is a completely different animal.
Wouldn’t you agree?
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I will say that you can get most of the benefits of a more comprehensive program with those two movements.[/quote]
If you feel like you can then good for you.
[quote]young n wrote:
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I will say that you can get most of the benefits of a more comprehensive program with those two movements. Much like the power clean/push-press combo. Packing about as much as you can into as few movements as you can.[/quote]
I will say that a kettlebell clean and press and a Olympic weightlifting clean and press with barbell is a completely different animal.
Wouldn’t you agree?[/quote]
Definitely. I was referring to the barbell movements, but I can see how it might have been read otherwise.
If all you have to work with is kettlebells, and your focus is an athletic body that has a decent amount of strength and coordination through a wide range of motion and planes, as well as a decent cardiovascular system… and you want to do it with as few movements in as short of time possible… I think the swing + tgu combo is a very good one. (Another good combo is the competitive lifts: the KB snatch and the the double KB clean and jerk.)
By “decent amount of strength and conditioning”, I mean, the things most people deal with in their day to day life; occasionally moving a few heavy things, occasionally playing some team sports with friends, stuff like that.
Yeah, I guess Rite of Passage fits the bill here, and that is a little more than just swings and get ups.
Simple and Sinister Day 43
Single Arm Swings (5x10): 28kg (8:49)
Turkish Get-Ups (5x1): 28kg
Gorilla Rows (3x10): 28kg
Bodyweight: 94.4kg - Awesome.
Nutrition: slipped up a bit today
Everything felt a little more difficult than usual today, so I’ll take tomorrow off. I’ll probably still do some form of activity, maybe swimming, but I won’t do S&S.
I’ve attached a photo I took last night, just to monitor progress. Not that much has changed.
I don’t know, from the previous pictures you’ve posted Furo, I think your midsectin is looking harder and leaner. You’re definitely getting some good work in.
Thanks to Lorez and young n for that cool discussion on the movements. I think I’m torn right between you guys. One thing I wanted to add is that I feel Dan John is pretty open to how one gets all the movements in. Some of his workouts will have all of them in a single week (like the 40 Day Workout). Others will rotate through the movements over time. I think the big thing is to not neglect a movement for a long period of time. This blog post of his is one of the pieces that makes me believe he’s open to playing around with the movements.
I really liked young n’s ideas for adding some new movements (press, pull, squat, etc.) to S and S. But I agree with Furo, it might be a bit much all at once. But I could see one doing S and S for a really long time, and every 2-4 weeks just pick a new supplemental movement (or two) to play around with. So over time you get all the movements in.
This would be a very minimalist and all around approach. I doubt it would work well if a person had serious goals in mind with a particular lift.
Again, thanks for the discussion. Really great stuff to think about.
If you like the idea of a minimalist training approach using kettlebells, look into Pat Flynn. His material is excellent.
Thanks booksbikesbeer, but I think it is mostly thanks to lighting etc. And thanks for the article, that was interesting.
Thanks BushcraftAl, I’ll look into it.
Gym Day
Bench Press (100kg): 3-3-3-2(dropset)
Jefferson Deadlift: 140kg x1
Zercher Squat: 60kg x1
Side Bends (14kg): 30-30-30
30kg Barbell Complex (OHP; BOR; SLDL; Back Squat): 8/8/8/8-8/8/8/8-8/8/8/8
I was going to go swimming today, but the pool was closed and a friend persuaded me to go to the gym with him. Needless to say the gym session was a complete fail. My plan was to do a heavy press, a heavy lower body movement and a little active recovery, which would have been great. However it didn’t turn out like that.
Benching went reasonably well. Not great, but I can’t complain given how little benching I do. Then I wanted to deadlift, but when warming up I got too scared about my back, so I switched to trying Jefferson’s deadlifts. They certainly felt better on my lower back, but extremely awkward, so I gave up. Then I decided to try zercher squats as a deadlift alternative, but couldn’t handle anything over 60kg. Then I decided to try to salvage the workout by attempting a heavy dumbbell TGU, and completely ditched the 40kg lol. Complete and utter failure.
So then I just did some side bends and a complex as active recovery.
I think my problem is that I’m shit at the gym, and not yet good at kettlebells. So I’m in a bit of a frustrating position. Nothing to do but to keep plodding on though!
Looking good Furo. Your arms look solid and strong.
I was thinking someone your size should probably be on more than 2,300 calories. Have you read recent articles on metabolism dysfunctions?
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Thanks theBird. Yeah I’ve been keeping up with the articles. I’m not really sure to be honest, it seems to be working so I’ll stick with it for now, but I’ll keep that in the back of my mind.
Swimming Day
25x 25m Lengths (Breast Stroke)
30min Sauna
I’ve changed my mind a bit about my plan for June. Instead of just training alternate days I’m going to train every day, but alternate between heavy days in which I’ll use 28kg/40kg and light days in which I’ll exclusively use 20kg. High frequency is a huge part of the S
I see you got some active recovery days.
Good for you.
You also are going to be alternating light and heavy days, have a look at some of pavel’s recent writings. I think he touches on that topic, I think.
Stay strong.
Rest Day
I know I haven’t been pushing hard recently, but I just really need a rest day today. I think I needed one on Sunday and shouldn’t have pushed through with the gym day and the swimming day. I just feel pretty run down.
Simple and Sinister Day 44
Single Arm Swings (5x10): 28kg (8:49)
Turkish Get-Ups (5x1): 33kg
Swimming
10 Lengths
30min Sauna
Bodyweight: 95.4kg
This session went well, I definitely needed the rest day yesterday. I bought prescription swimming goggles and they arrived today, so I tried them out. I’ve never tried them before, and they were great! I always wear glasses when I swim, because my vision is so bad, but that prohibits me from doing front crawl, so that’s what I did today. It felt much more tiring than breast stroke, but I think that’s due to worse technique.
Budget Kettlebelling
As you may have noticed I did the Turkish get-ups with 33kg. I did this by fixing a 5kg plate to my 28kg kettlebell (as shown). It looks dodgy, but it held together very well indeed.
I’m very happy with this, and it will really help bridge the jump to 40kg when the time comes. I managed all 5 sets with the 33kg, and my technique was fine, but I needed to take longer in between sets.