I also don’t want to sound like an ass, but my first thought when you started talking about not wanting a lot of size gains was that you sounded like one of the many women we all know who think they’ll accidentally get too big.
It won’t be a lot of extra work to do a couple of moves a week, and I really doubt some pressing will impact on your recovery for everything else. And if you accidentally start getting too big, stop doing it 
young n, your dog is beautiful
Haha MaazerSmiit - that is definitely not how I meant it to come across. Basically my goal for this whole recent phase of training has been to maintain my size/get leaner while improving my kettlebell strength: the whole idea has been to become pound-for-pound stronger, and I feel that it is working. That’s why I don’t want to gain size, but at the same time I really don’t want to lose muscle either.
I totally agree that adding in some presses or whatever will have a negligible effect on my recovery and it won’t cause me to get “too big” lol, but my reasoning is why add more stuff in when I can achieve what I want without it? I really want to focus on stripping everything unnecessary out of my training, which is why I’m reluctant to add more lifts in, and my goals are so modest that I don’t think it’s necessary.
It’s not so much about not getting bigger, it’s more about getting everything done in the most efficient way possible (which is going to be vital come August when I start work).
Young n, I’d be interested to hear how you train brother? I see you had a log, but that was a while ago. My upper arms were always 16.5" cold and flexed, whereas now they are … damn I can’t find my tapemeasure. I’ll get back to you on that one. I’d guess around 15.5".
Simple and Sinister Day 37
Single Arm Swing (5x10): 28kg (7:32)
Bodyweight: 96.3kg
My right knee has been feeling really clunky since my 3 mile run on Sunday and this morning while I was sitting on the bus it suddenly spasmed and I had this really weird shooting pain. I don’t know what is going on with it, but my voodoo bands should arrive soon and hopefully they should improve it in some way. I’m really confused about the underlying cause though, I’ve never had any trauma to that knee (or anywhere for that matter). It was still really painful when I trained so I skipped the TGUs.
Rest Day
I intended on training today but I did four hours of airsoft and didn’t have time. It was good fun.
Simple and Sinister Day 38
Single Arm Swings (5x10): 28kg (9:54)
Turkish Get-Ups (5x1): 28kg (9:41)
Bodyweight: 96.9kg
I took on board the swing technique suggestions I got on here and another forum I posted on, and implemented them today. I particularly focused on using more hip drive (thanks LoRez), making more a “plank” at the top of the movement and keeping my arms straight. It did make the movement a little more challenging as it required more whole body tension, but I still got it done in a similar time.
Heh, I wasn’t sure if you saw my reply.
It was interesting watching that video again. A couple things stood out to me. One was how impressive some of those presses were.
The other was how “skinny” he looks to me now. Back then, I actually thought of Pavel as a decently muscular guy. Interesting how one’s perspectives change.
I pulled out the old RKC book. His swing description:
[quote]Pick up a kettlebell with both arms, keeping your knees slightly bent, back arched, your head up, and the weight on your heels.
Swing the bell back between your legs. Observe how the weight remains on the heels and the shins are vertical. You should feel that the K-bell is pulling you backward and loading your hamstrings. The position illustrated is essential to master; if you let your knees protude forward, you will never get the leverage to bring your hips in on the action.
Snap the hips through by contracting your glutes explosively, a motion similar to a vertical jump. Visualize jumping up at the same time projecting the girya straight ahead with the power of your hips. The height of the pull may vary: level with your waist… level with your chest… and above the head.
You can even pull it straight up, if you feel confident you can reverse the movement before the kettlebell flicks over and hurts your wrists (the handle may not be wide enough for two hands in that position.) If you do get that high make sure you do not lean back – that applies to all kettlebell drills across the board.
Note how you may end up on your tip toes as you express your power upward. Great, just make sure to rock back on your heels as the bell comes down.
When you reach the top of the movement, immediately let the bell free fall to the spot slightly below and behind your knees. Once that destination is reached, proceed with the next rep without hesitation. No pause at all; you have touched a hot stove![/quote]
And from the snatch description:
It doesn’t sound like you ever read the original book, so now you have his official original description 
Yeah sorry I didn’t reply. Things have been quite hectic here and I’ve had a friend crashing on the couch so I haven’t been able to take my time with T-Nation lol.
Thanks for the description. He goes through it clearly in the Simple and Sinister book and Enter the Kettlebell, both of which I have read in detail. The Simple and Sinister description really breaks it down.
I feel like I’m hitting the points that you’ve quoted. I for sure load up my hamstrings and contract my glutes hard, and I’m certainly not using my arms at all.
Thanks again for the help.
Hey Furo,
Just saw the video today, and I have a few thoughts if you are still interested.
First, awesome work posting it. It’s tough to put yourself out there.
On the swings, your hips are looking good. I know you said you were concentrating on more drive there, and honestly, I think that is something one could work on with their swings for years. Feel good with where you are at, and keep driving harder.
There are two things I would work to change in the swings. It doesn’t look like your hips come into full extension at the top. You mentioned trying to hold the plank at the top, really clenching hard and getting that straight line of shoulders/hips/ankles would be great. The other thing, try not to lose crispness at the top. Often your bell was coming up pretty high, but you were (somewhat) relaxed when that was happening. Fire your lats and rear delts at the top and halt the bell’s momentum somewhere around your sternum to chin, and then launch it back down.
Your get up is looking strong. And props for doing it on wood floors. My elbows and knees are sore just thinking of that. There are two thoughts I had here as well. One, keep the elbow straight and locked (something I also struggle with). And two, your get down is rather fast and gets a little sloppy in the the very end. Pause at each section very briefly. This was especially noticeable at the very end when you’re flat on your back. Hold the bell up for a second, then do a negative press bringing it back to the starting position. Right now a lot of momentum and gravity is bringing that bell back. This change alone might allow for some of the upper body changes you are looking for.
And speaking of those, when I was on the program earlier this year I did notice some size change overall. Not a ton, but it was there. Shoulders got denser (but not larger). Triceps and traps got harder and bigger. Lats and glutes also got harder and bigger.
After a few weeks off due to a non-training related injury, I’m using S and S to back to things. Still loving it, and your progress is inspiring. Keep it up.
Thanks a lot for the comment booksbikesbeer! The advice is invaluable and I really worked on it in today’s session. Sorry to hear about your injury man.
Simple and Sinister Day 39
Single Arm Swings (5x10): 28kg (8:25)
Turkish Get-Ups (5x1): 28kg (10:18)
Bodyweight: 96.6kg
I’m off to visit family over the next couple of days, so won’t be training. I hope you all have an exceptional weekend!
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
On the swings, your hips are looking good. I know you said you were concentrating on more drive there, and honestly, I think that is something one could work on with their swings for years.
There are two things I would work to change in the swings. It doesn’t look like your hips come into full extension at the top.[/quote]
You could see that with the black shorts and the black tv. Wow, I was didn’t want to say anything about that hip extension until I was sure.
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
Fire your lats and rear delts at the top and halt the bell’s momentum somewhere around your sternum to chin, and then launch it back down.[/quote]
^ this is something that not alot of people will tell you. And it will straighten out your arms so no more nitpicking from me.
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
One, keep the elbow straight and locked
Pause at each section very briefly.[/quote]
I couldn’t have said it better.
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
This change alone might allow for some of the upper body changes you are looking for.[/quote]
Thanks for the comment young n, I really appreciate all the advice :). I have been particularly struggling with involving the lat, that definitely needs a lot of work.
Simple and Sinister Day 40
Single Arm Swings (5x10): 28kg (9:19)
Turkish Get-Ups (5x1): 28kg
Bodyweight: 95.9kg
I stuck with my 2,300kcal diet today: roughly 220g protein, 205g carbs and 60g fat. Does that sound like an ok split? More fat perhaps?
This session felt good, 28kg feels like it’s getting a little easier and my technique felt a lot better. I’ve decided to stop timing the Turkish get-ups as it is encouraging me to rush reps and that is definitely counter-productive at this point.
I also did a lot of foam rolling today (while watching Arnie in Commando lol). Mostly worked on my legs, but also did my triceps which felt terrible/amazing. I’ll probably do some more in an hour or so.
[quote]young n wrote:
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
On the swings, your hips are looking good. I know you said you were concentrating on more drive there, and honestly, I think that is something one could work on with their swings for years.
There are two things I would work to change in the swings. It doesn’t look like your hips come into full extension at the top.[/quote]
You could see that with the black shorts and the black tv. Wow, I was didn’t want to say anything about that hip extension until I was sure.
Well, I can’t claim that I could fully see the hip extension on the video. The black on black does make it tough. But I kind of deduced this was happening due to the ankle/knee/hip/shoulder line. Even if you remove the hips completely, the line is not quite a line. And in my opinion (I’m saying this as someone who is not a biomechanist or kettle certified anything, just a guy who likes to do this stuff), the hips are the most important thing in that line. So if the line is not really a line, then there is almost no way the hips are fully extended.
But I could be completely wrong on that, lol.
Are you a kettlebell fan too, young n?
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
[quote]young n wrote:
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
On the swings, your hips are looking good. I know you said you were concentrating on more drive there, and honestly, I think that is something one could work on with their swings for years.
There are two things I would work to change in the swings. It doesn’t look like your hips come into full extension at the top.[/quote]
You could see that with the black shorts and the black tv. Wow, I was didn’t want to say anything about that hip extension until I was sure.[/quote]
Well, I can’t claim that I could fully see the hip extension on the video. The black on black does make it tough. But I kind of deduced this was happening due to the ankle/knee/hip/shoulder line. Even if you remove the hips completely, the line is not quite a line. And in my opinion (I’m saying this as someone who is not a biomechanist or kettle certified anything, just a guy who likes to do this stuff), the hips are the most important thing in that line. So if the line is not really a line, then there is almost no way the hips are fully extended.
But I could be completely wrong on that, lol.
Are you a kettlebell fan too, young n?[/quote]
What you say is accurate booksbikesbeer - I definitely did not fully extend at the hips. I’ve developed a bad habit of cutting my extension short for fear of hyperextending my spine and re-injuring my lower back, but since you guys brought it up I’ve been working hard on rectifying it.
[quote]furo wrote:
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
[quote]young n wrote:
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
On the swings, your hips are looking good. I know you said you were concentrating on more drive there, and honestly, I think that is something one could work on with their swings for years.
There are two things I would work to change in the swings. It doesn’t look like your hips come into full extension at the top.[/quote]
You could see that with the black shorts and the black tv. Wow, I was didn’t want to say anything about that hip extension until I was sure.[/quote]
Well, I can’t claim that I could fully see the hip extension on the video. The black on black does make it tough. But I kind of deduced this was happening due to the ankle/knee/hip/shoulder line. Even if you remove the hips completely, the line is not quite a line. And in my opinion (I’m saying this as someone who is not a biomechanist or kettle certified anything, just a guy who likes to do this stuff), the hips are the most important thing in that line. So if the line is not really a line, then there is almost no way the hips are fully extended.
But I could be completely wrong on that, lol.
Are you a kettlebell fan too, young n?[/quote]
What you say is accurate booksbikesbeer - I definitely did not fully extend at the hips. I’ve developed a bad habit of cutting my extension short for fear of hyperextending my spine and re-injuring my lower back, but since you guys brought it up I’ve been working hard on rectifying it. [/quote]
Yeah, that is a tough one. Coming back to the swings now after a few weeks off, I’m most fatigued in my lower back. And many people will tell you that swings should never hurt your back. I wouldn’t say I hurt, but I’m feeling it.
I hope focusing on it allows you to find that sweet spot where the hips tuck under you and your back feels really strong. For me, also thinking about bracing the lower abs can help me keep that straight line.
I assume you are also doing the S and S warm up? I read somewhere else (book or other forum) that the hip bridge exercise with the shoes (or I use a pillow) between your knees is designed to teach your body to clamp those glutes down and prevent you from over extending and hurting the low back. So it could be good to think of those two things together.
Just some thoughts. Happy foam rolling tonight. I’m looking forward to my own S and S after work.
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
[quote]young n wrote:
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
On the swings, your hips are looking good. I know you said you were concentrating on more drive there, and honestly, I think that is something one could work on with their swings for years.
There are two things I would work to change in the swings. It doesn’t look like your hips come into full extension at the top.[/quote]
You could see that with the black shorts and the black tv. Wow, I was didn’t want to say anything about that hip extension until I was sure.[/quote]
Well, I can’t claim that I could fully see the hip extension on the video. The black on black does make it tough. But I kind of deduced this was happening due to the ankle/knee/hip/shoulder line. Even if you remove the hips completely, the line is not quite a line. And in my opinion (I’m saying this as someone who is not a biomechanist or kettle certified anything, just a guy who likes to do this stuff), the hips are the most important thing in that line. So if the line is not really a line, then there is almost no way the hips are fully extended.
But I could be completely wrong on that, lol.
Are you a kettlebell fan too, young n?[/quote]
I’m not a fan per se but they (KB) are another tool in the toolbox, I’m not no KB certified nazi, but I think I have a decent swing though, so I’m just hoping I can provide some input that can be helpful, if by any means I’m wrong about anything I expect to be corrected.
And regarding the swing and straight line of the shoulders-hips-knees-ankles and the shoulders-elbows-wrists/hands you are absolutely on the mark and like I said your very good at detailing the movements via an internet fourm, whereas I feel I am horrible at doing that but have decent hands on/ in person cues, but that is why I’m here hoping to learn and help others along the way.
And just like you I plan on using Simple&Sinister post surgery for myself.
Good hearing from you. Do you have a training log?
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
[quote]furo wrote:
What you say is accurate booksbikesbeer - I definitely did not fully extend at the hips. I’ve developed a bad habit of cutting my extension short for fear of hyperextending my spine and re-injuring my lower back, but since you guys brought it up I’ve been working hard on rectifying it. [/quote]
Yeah, that is a tough one. Coming back to the swings now after a few weeks off, I’m most fatigued in my lower back. And many people will tell you that swings should never hurt your back. I wouldn’t say I hurt, but I’m feeling it.[/quote]
Yeah about the whole feeling it in the lower back, I just call it lower back conditioning, its normal in my book (and I say that knowing, assuming, you have good form.) A few more session/workouts/maybe even a week or two and you wont feel them in the lower back (as much.)
[quote]booksbikesbeer wrote:
I hope focusing on it allows you to find that sweet spot where the hips tuck under you and your back feels really strong. For me, also thinking about bracing the lower abs can help me keep that straight line.[/quote]
Now you say that you “brace your lower abs” Are you doing the “RKC hardstyle breaths” or whatever the hell term is for them? I ask because breathing like that usually causes PPT (posterior pelvic tilt) so the lower abs get braced because of the PPT or vice versa. So are you consciously doing that (bracing your lower abs)?
I usually cue to squeeze the arse and the abs (the whole abs, not just lower)
Drills that I use to drill in that position: plank on forearms (be prepared for me to be kicking you in your abs while your down there, lightly at first, so on a scale of 1-10, 1 being easy and 10 full power, will start off with a 1 and get up to a 3/4 tops, I also do this to the sides of the core/abs and to the glutes) from the position you progress to a push up plank/hold and usually by then the athletes have it down, Disclaimer this drill is just a teaching/proprioceptive tool)
Stray strong bother
Booksbikesbeer: Yeah over the past couple of days since I’ve been working on fully extending but also fully bracing my abs and glutes I’ve found that it doesn’t actually hurt my lower back at all. In fact it feels much better. It seems that bracing the abs and glutes is the key. So fully extending and bracing is definitely a permanent change, and I thank you for it tremendously!
I’d be really interested to hear how both of you, booksbikesbeer and young n, usually train. I really appreciate your insights in this log.
[quote]furo wrote:
I definitely did not fully extend at the hips. I’ve developed a bad habit of cutting my extension short for fear of hyperextending my spine and re-injuring my lower back, but since you guys brought it up I’ve been working hard on rectifying it. [/quote]
I know a lot people say that you shouldn’t feel the swing in your lower back and I agree but like I stated you will get some lower back involvement that is fine, kind of like of the deadlift the glutes hams are doing the work but the lower back will get involved to some degree, I mean you can’t walk without having you ankles, knees, hips, back, neck, elbow involved to some degree. But since you are worried about hyperextension, I think learning to brace the core and PPT should limit the hyperextension.
Stay Strong brother
[quote]furo wrote:
Booksbikesbeer: Yeah over the past couple of days since I’ve been working on fully extending but also fully bracing my abs and glutes I’ve found that it doesn’t actually hurt my lower back at all. In fact it feels much better. It seems that bracing the abs and glutes is the key. So fully extending and bracing is definitely a permanent change, and I thank you for it tremendously!
I’d be really interested to hear how both of you, booksbikesbeer and young n, usually train. I really appreciate your insights in this log.[/quote]
I just saw this after I posted the last post. Glad to see that what I had to say is helping. Made my day, I know, I know I’m blowing my own horn.